Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

[Themanbun]

Best 22 across all 3 sides 24 and under. (24 because of key position talent!) - Based off of 2022.
B: Mitchell Hinge, Jordan Butts, Jack Scrimshaw
HB: Changkuoth Jiath, Ben McKay, Will Day
C: Harry Morrison, Jy Simpkin, Lachlan Sholl
HF: Dylan Moore, Nick Larkey, Josh Rachele
F: Tristian Xerri, Mitchell Lewis, Cam Zurhaar
FOL: Ned Reeves, Jai Newcombe, Luke Davies-Uniacke
INT: Connor MacDonald, Jason Horne-Francis, Josh Ward, Jackson Hately

Took a fair amount into 2022, there's a fair amount of talent missing.

Tarryn Thomas has been super poor and tbh it was surprising to see how bad his stats were aswell, he'd be the med sub of the side. Powell is talented but not here due to partly the North coaching. Will Phillips.

Could've been without another with McKay but still 24 till end of year, would replace with DGB after that.

Impressed with Paul Curtis.

Stephenson not close and is the other talented North player.

From a Crows POV, there's a few tbh there's a couple just above 24 (Keays, Dawson and Doedee).
But also players like Soligo who i've liked this year, young Schoenberg regressed a little tho talented, Thilthorpe talented as, Cook, Pedlar. McHenry, Zac Taylor (just drafted not played), Rowe (solid).

Hawks wise, Brockman through injury, Bramble pretty close but a strong defense (should play wing), Worps poor form, similar to that of Tarryn Thomas. Nash not too far off tbh, Hardwick a year too old, DGB really close but two really good key defenders there, Butler not far off either been good, Maginness.

Players per team and per position.
HAW: 10
DEF: 3
MID: 4
FWD: 3

ADE: 5
DEF: 2
MID: 2
FWD: 1

NOR: 7
DEF: 1
MID: 3
FWD: 3

Feel free to remind me how stupid this is and who i've missed, keen to start a convo and especially with the bye coming up

Pretty bang on. I'm worried about Xerri in a pocket (no forward craft whatsoever), and maybe would've had Bailey Scott over one of the poorer performers on the bench

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Pretty bang on. I'm worried about Xerri in a pocket (no forward craft whatsoever), and maybe would've had Bailey Scott over one of the poorer performers on the bench

Scott is solid but don’t think I need another defender, rated his consistency but I feel the others have had more impact?
He’s very close and I actually forgot his name in the message. I’ll edit now.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Pretty bang on. I'm worried about Xerri in a pocket (no forward craft whatsoever), and maybe would've had Bailey Scott over one of the poorer performers on the bench

Xerri the 2nd ruck. Could probably put bench over CMac or JHF and move them to HF and Rachele pocket.

 

[MightyHawks]

Best 22 across all 3 sides 24 and under. (24 because of key position talent!) - Based off of 2022.
B: Mitchell Hinge, Jordan Butts, Jack Scrimshaw
HB: Changkuoth Jiath, Ben McKay, Will Day
C: Harry Morrison, Jy Simpkin, Lachlan Sholl
HF: Dylan Moore, Nick Larkey, Josh Rachele
F: Tristian Xerri, Mitchell Lewis, Cam Zurhaar
FOL: Ned Reeves, Jai Newcombe, Luke Davies-Uniacke
INT: Connor MacDonald, Jason Horne-Francis, Josh Ward, Jackson Hately

Took a fair amount into 2022, there's a fair amount of talent missing.

Tarryn Thomas has been super poor and tbh it was surprising to see how bad his stats were aswell, he'd be the med sub of the side. Powell is talented but not here due to partly the North coaching. Will Phillips.

Could've been without another with McKay but still 24 till end of year, would replace with DGB after that.

Impressed with Paul Curtis.

Stephenson not close and is the other talented North player.

Scott is a solid defender but consistency without the ceiling and the elite defense already there I don’t see him near it. A few of the wings can play defense and their were a few other options

From a Crows POV, there's a few tbh there's a couple just above 24 (Keays, Dawson and Doedee).
But also players like Soligo who i've liked this year, young Schoenberg regressed a little tho talented, Thilthorpe talented as, Cook, Pedlar. McHenry, Zac Taylor (just drafted not played), Rowe (solid).

Hawks wise, Brockman through injury, Bramble pretty close but a strong defense (should play wing), Worps poor form, similar to that of Tarryn Thomas. Nash not too far off tbh, Hardwick a year too old, DGB really close but two really good key defenders there, Butler not far off either been good, Maginness.

Players per team and per position.
HAW: 10
DEF: 3
MID: 4
FWD: 3

ADE: 5
DEF: 2
MID: 2
FWD: 1

NOR: 7
DEF: 1
MID: 3
FWD: 3

Feel free to remind me how stupid this is and who i've missed, keen to start a convo and especially with the bye coming up

Jason Horne-Francis is marked in blue.

But considering this is a future looking thread shouldn't he realistically be added to Adelaide?

Players per team and per position.
HAW: 10
DEF: 3
MID: 4
FWD: 3

ADE: 6
DEF: 2
MID: 3
FWD: 1

NOR: 6
DEF: 1
MID: 2
FWD: 3

 

[evo]

The cupboard still looks pretty bare to me in regardsto North. Theres not a lot to hang your hat on. It will be a disaster if JHF decides to leave.

 

[SSSSSS]

If Xerri stops dropping 2 regulation uncontested marks each week he will be a decent ruck. Plays like he has dish soap on his arms.

 

[Engimal v3]

If Xerri stops dropping 2 regulation uncontested marks each week he will be a decent ruck. Plays like he has dish soap on his arms.

Shits me to tears. Gets himself into a good position then drops an absolute sitter.

Robbie Tarrant used to be the same way for a while, then miraculously became a very solid mark. I hope Xerri can turn it around because it's a bit of a glaring hole in his game.

 

[Golumless]

Best 22 across all 3 sides 24 and under. (24 because of key position talent!) - Based off of 2022.
B: Mitchell Hinge, Jordan Butts, Jack Scrimshaw
HB: Changkuoth Jiath, Ben McKay, Will Day
C: Harry Morrison, Jy Simpkin, Lachlan Sholl
HF: Dylan Moore, Nick Larkey, Josh Rachele
F: Tristian Xerri, Mitchell Lewis, Cam Zurhaar
FOL: Ned Reeves, Jai Newcombe, Luke Davies-Uniacke
INT: Connor MacDonald, Jason Horne-Francis, Josh Ward, Jackson Hately

Took a fair amount into 2022, there's a fair amount of talent missing.

Tarryn Thomas has been super poor and tbh it was surprising to see how bad his stats were aswell, he'd be the med sub of the side. Powell is talented but not here due to partly the North coaching. Will Phillips.

Could've been without another with McKay but still 24 till end of year, would replace with DGB after that.

Impressed with Paul Curtis.

Stephenson not close and is the other talented North player.

Scott is a solid defender but consistency without the ceiling and the elite defense already there I don’t see him near it. A few of the wings can play defense and their were a few other options

From a Crows POV, there's a few tbh there's a couple just above 24 (Keays, Dawson and Doedee).
But also players like Soligo who i've liked this year, young Schoenberg regressed a little tho talented, Thilthorpe talented as, Cook, Pedlar. McHenry, Zac Taylor (just drafted not played), Rowe (solid).

Hawks wise, Brockman through injury, Bramble pretty close but a strong defense (should play wing), Worps poor form, similar to that of Tarryn Thomas. Nash not too far off tbh, Hardwick a year too old, DGB really close but two really good key defenders there, Butler not far off either been good, Maginness.

Players per team and per position.
HAW: 10
DEF: 3
MID: 4
FWD: 3

ADE: 5
DEF: 2
MID: 2
FWD: 1

NOR: 7
DEF: 1
MID: 3
FWD: 3

Feel free to remind me how stupid this is and who i've missed, keen to start a convo and especially with the bye coming up

I would say Berry deserves at least an honorable mention, seeing he's developing rather nicely at the moment.

Beyond that, it's pretty fair in respect to Adelaide's stocks. A few flashes, but youth wise, it's a very inconsistent bunch at the moment. Though, I suppose that's not too surprising given the state of our list this year, where we are at our likely lowest ebb.

 

[Liam Boy]

If Xerri stops dropping 2 regulation uncontested marks each week he will be a decent ruck. Plays like he has dish soap on his arms.

he was grabbing them cleanly yesterday. except for missing his one shot on goal (which was from a very tough angle) he had a good game

based on output this season I think Dominic03's side looks pretty on the money. I don't know how useful output this season will be for evaluating long term stocks though, North's youth would look better if they were accompanied by Hawthorn's seniors, Hawthorn's youth would look worse if they were accompanied by North's seniors, etc. North's problems at the moment are mostly down to that lack of leadership and group cohesion. Ben Cunnington's absence is a massive problem, it's probably a big contributing factor in Jaidyn Stephenson and Tarryn Thomas's poor form this year and the general lack of midfield strength. While we win clearances pretty reliably, it's almost always a hack kick out of congestion that ends up rebounding. Cunnington in the middle gives us the poise to actually use the ball well, and also actually play through those clean outside ball users like Thomas and Stephenson.

Jack Ziebell is a massive problem. For a captain he just doesn't contribute enough, he ends up being hidden wherever his deficiencies will do the least damage. He was getting badly beaten in the backline so they shifted him forward, which worked for a week before he just became a total non-presence there. He doesn't lead by example, he doesn't appear to have the respect of the playing group, and his leadership group aren't much better. Larkey and Simpkin are still pretty young and have been struggling this year, McDonald is well below his career best form and doesn't really look like an on-field leader, Corr is improving but still pretty new to the club, and Turner is a complete liability and was lucky to survive the two list culls. As far as potential future captains, there's really only Simpkin and he's got bigger problems to work on right now. McDonald could take the captaincy next year as a stop-gap but he always seems like a guy who's just having fun, not the kind of standards-setting hard worker that a developing group needs.

I don't know what the way out of this is, at least in the short term. It's been suggested that North try to bring in a figure who can do what Luke Hodge did for Brisbane but it's hard to see where a player like that could come from. The talent is there, but it's not going to mean anything if the players don't believe in each other or know how to work together.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I would say Berry deserves at least an honorable mention, seeing he's developing rather nicely at the moment.

Beyond that, it's pretty fair in respect to Adelaide's stocks. A few flashes, but youth wise, it's a very inconsistent bunch at the moment. Though, I suppose that's not too surprising given the state of our list this year, where we are at our likely lowest ebb.

Yeah mate, i did forget him also. He's solid not great but from what i've seen so far, gives 100% and shows some mongrel.

 

[Soggy2112]

I would say Berry deserves at least an honorable mention, seeing he's developing rather nicely at the moment.

Beyond that, it's pretty fair in respect to Adelaide's stocks. A few flashes, but youth wise, it's a very inconsistent bunch at the moment. Though, I suppose that's not too surprising given the state of our list this year, where we are at our likely lowest ebb.

I think for now we’re fine. Just need to see some of these “glimpses” players, e.g. Jones, Berry, Schoenberg etc to start delivering consistently soon. I think around 2024 is when we should be aiming for a significant push at finals as that’s when most of those guys will be in that 50-150 game bracket they talk about.

 

[VinnieB]

Stats are basically identical for Xerri and Reeves and that's with Reeves missing 3 quarters against Geelong which one would've made his stats 10x bettter (dominated Stanley in the first was on track for 40 hitouts and 15 to advantage LOL) but even then still very close and similar and Reeves done most of this as a solo.

But Reeves is full-time ruck. Xerri isn't. So Xerri spends a fraction of the time in the ruck, yet still has comparable or better numbers.
You realise how inconsistent you are with your stat comparisons??

 

[VinnieB]

Best 22 across all 3 sides 24 and under. (24 because of key position talent!) - Based off of 2022.
B: Mitchell Hinge, Jordan Butts, Jack Scrimshaw
HB: Changkuoth Jiath, Ben McKay, Will Day
C: Harry Morrison, Jy Simpkin, Lachlan Sholl
HF: Dylan Moore, Nick Larkey, Josh Rachele
F: Tristian Xerri, Mitchell Lewis, Cam Zurhaar
FOL: Ned Reeves, Jai Newcombe, Luke Davies-Uniacke
INT: Connor MacDonald, Jason Horne-Francis, Josh Ward, Jackson Hately

Took a fair amount into 2022, there's a fair amount of talent missing.

Tarryn Thomas has been super poor and tbh it was surprising to see how bad his stats were aswell, he'd be the med sub of the side. Powell is talented but not here due to partly the North coaching. Will Phillips.

Could've been without another with McKay but still 24 till end of year, would replace with DGB after that.

Impressed with Paul Curtis.

Stephenson not close and is the other talented North player.

Scott is a solid defender but consistency without the ceiling and the elite defense already there I don’t see him near it. A few of the wings can play defense and their were a few other options

From a Crows POV, there's a few tbh there's a couple just above 24 (Keays, Dawson and Doedee).
But also players like Soligo who i've liked this year, young Schoenberg regressed a little tho talented, Thilthorpe talented as, Cook, Pedlar. McHenry, Zac Taylor (just drafted not played), Rowe (solid).

Hawks wise, Brockman through injury, Bramble pretty close but a strong defense (should play wing), Worps poor form, similar to that of Tarryn Thomas. Nash not too far off tbh, Hardwick a year too old, DGB really close but two really good key defenders there, Butler not far off either been good, Maginness.

Players per team and per position.
HAW: 10
DEF: 3
MID: 4
FWD: 3

ADE: 5
DEF: 2
MID: 2
FWD: 1

NOR: 7
DEF: 1
MID: 3
FWD: 3

Feel free to remind me how stupid this is and who i've missed, keen to start a convo and especially with the bye coming up

Must be running out of players to include Ward.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Must be running out of players to include Ward.

Been pretty decent. The other I considered was TT but similar stats and the fact Ward is younger and in the better side skewed it. Tho I don’t mind it either way.

 

[Golumless]

he was grabbing them cleanly yesterday. except for missing his one shot on goal (which was from a very tough angle) he had a good game

based on output this season I think Dominic03's side looks pretty on the money. I don't know how useful output this season will be for evaluating long term stocks though, North's youth would look better if they were accompanied by Hawthorn's seniors, Hawthorn's youth would look worse if they were accompanied by North's seniors, etc. North's problems at the moment are mostly down to that lack of leadership and group cohesion. Ben Cunnington's absence is a massive problem, it's probably a big contributing factor in Jaidyn Stephenson and Tarryn Thomas's poor form this year and the general lack of midfield strength. While we win clearances pretty reliably, it's almost always a hack kick out of congestion that ends up rebounding. Cunnington in the middle gives us the poise to actually use the ball well, and also actually play through those clean outside ball users like Thomas and Stephenson.

Jack Ziebell is a massive problem. For a captain he just doesn't contribute enough, he ends up being hidden wherever his deficiencies will do the least damage. He was getting badly beaten in the backline so they shifted him forward, which worked for a week before he just became a total non-presence there. He doesn't lead by example, he doesn't appear to have the respect of the playing group, and his leadership group aren't much better. Larkey and Simpkin are still pretty young and have been struggling this year, McDonald is well below his career best form and doesn't really look like an on-field leader, Corr is improving but still pretty new to the club, and Turner is a complete liability and was lucky to survive the two list culls. As far as potential future captains, there's really only Simpkin and he's got bigger problems to work on right now. McDonald could take the captaincy next year as a stop-gap but he always seems like a guy who's just having fun, not the kind of standards-setting hard worker that a developing group needs.

I don't know what the way out of this is, at least in the short term. It's been suggested that North try to bring in a figure who can do what Luke Hodge did for Brisbane but it's hard to see where a player like that could come from. The talent is there, but it's not going to mean anything if the players don't believe in each other or know how to work together.

The problem with any cut-off is you're immediately going to favor players close to that cut-off age as they've had more pre-seasons/development time (a similar phenomenon to how being born in the first half of the year is a huge advantage in getting noticed in youth setups). For instance, a team like Adelaide isn't going to do too well with a U24 cut off as one of the bigger list weakness it faces is in that 23-24 year old group this year. U22 and the story is different, and one that'd end up with the Crows being the key player due to sheer weight of numbers more so then anything to do with talent.

So it's not a great reflection on youth stocks, but in saying that, it's likely a much better way to do it then draft picks, junior seasons etc. Talent without AFL form to back it up is rather worthless outside of an exercise in hope.

The big thing for North is it's time to burn down your off-field staff and get some breathing room. Clearly something has gone wrong there and that's gone toxic. Players like Simpkin, Larkey, McKay and LDU are more than capable to build around for a younger group and are at the points of their respective careers where they really should be the club leaders at the moment.

I think for now we’re fine. Just need to see some of these “glimpses” players, e.g. Jones, Berry, Schoenberg etc to start delivering consistently soon. I think around 2024 is when we should be aiming for a significant push at finals as that’s when most of those guys will be in that 50-150 game bracket they talk about.

I agree, I don't think you're hitting the panic button just yet if you're Adelaide at this point. So far, it's looking like a repeat of 2021, but considering the Crows are currently running a team who are considerably inexperienced/young compared to other rebuilders, it is likely more of a bullet dodged than a disaster.

That's really the next step though, needing that younger group to take that next step and become reliable footballers alongside Butts. On top of nailing the next off-season and continuously building/developing a game plan/culture to return to the top.

Interestingly, considering one of my calls in the off-season, the player who's probably in the best position to take that step up in the 2nd half of the season is Fog considering our draw does ease up, and he's looking like he's potentially found a way to make his game work. Otherwise, we might be waiting for another preseason for most of them, or they're like Jones, and are likely to be overtaken by a younger model (seeing I reckon Parnell goes past him now that we've given him a taste).

I kind of lean towards 2023 being a year where we need to really push towards finals. Adelaide has been down for a while, and really, it doesn't take a whole lot to break right for us to really push a finals spot (which is something that could be said about every rebuilding team which has stabilized). Plus I doubt Nicks survives next year if we're a 6-7 win team.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

But Reeves is full-time ruck. Xerri isn't. So Xerri spends a fraction of the time in the ruck, yet still has comparable or better numbers.
You realise how inconsistent you are with your stat comparisons??

Reeves had a game where he was injured for three quarters after being on track for 40 hit outs.

Stats are similar and Xerri is also a no1 ruck. Goldy is the 2nd ruck and they rotate. Tho since returning after injury he’s been slower “Xerri” and has built back into it more as a 2nd.

they’re both good at different things.

 

[VinnieB]

Been pretty decent. The other I considered was TT but similar stats and the fact Ward is younger and in the better side skewed it. Tho I don’t mind it either way.

No he hasn't. He has been very underwhelming.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

No he hasn't. He has been very underwhelming.

Hasn’t lived up to expectations but neither has JHF. TT even worse and there’s really no other mids who deserve the spot.

 

[Golumless]

Hasn’t lived up to expectations but neither has JHF. TT even worse and there’s really no other mids who deserve the spot.

cough Sam Berry cough

It's not a sexy pick, but has both of them covered as a midfielder at this point. 16.4 disposals, 3.1 clearances, 2.4 SI, 7.6 tackles (current no. 1 in the league).

 

[Dewyyyyy]

cough Sam Berry cough

It's not a sexy pick, but has both of them covered rather comfortably as a midfielder at this point. 16.4 disposals, 3.1 clearances, 7.6 tackles (current no. 1 in the league)

Fair enough. Knew he’d be good but didn’t see him at that level.

Tho I do think he’s a very limited footballer he’s shown some improvement. I’d change it but I Cbf atm. I will when I get the chance.

 

[Golumless]

Fair enough. Knew he’d be good but didn’t see him at that level.

Tho I do think he’s a very limited footballer he’s shown some improvement. I’d change it but I Cbf atm. I will when I get the chance.

That's the risk of using current output. Someone you think is a limited footballer could be outperforming someone you like.

I don't see Berry as that limited though, seeing he's flashed a decently strong offensive game in the 2s. Looks well on track to end up in that bottleneck of A-grade mids, but not the elite once he's had another couple of preseasons.

 

[SSSSSS]

No he hasn't. He has been very underwhelming.

First year player averaging 15 touches. Not sure what expectations we are putting on him. Done some nice things. Lot to work on.

FWIW if the cut off is 24 you 100% replace Ward for Nash. Genuine utility and starting to find his feet as a crash and bash mid.

 

[Golumless]

First year player averaging 15 touches. Not sure what expectations we are putting on him. Done some nice things. Lot to work on.

FWIW if the cut off is 24 you 100% replace Ward for Nash. Genuine utility and starting to find his feet as a crash and bash mid.

You don't. You go for Berry who had a better season. After all, similar offensive game and the leagues standard bearer on the defensive side for inside mids*.

*At 68% gametime too. There are some AFL records at risk when he gets 80-85%. He'll be fun oddity once the offense catches up.

 

[hawkman]

Still arguing about Reeves? Way I see it, Hawthorns youth is quantity over quality.

This should spice up this thread... If there was a talls draft today, including these three clubs u24 players, this is how it would fall IMO:

Talls

Pick 1 - Thilthorpe
Pick 2 - Larkey
Pick 3 - McKay
Pick 4 - Butts
Pick 5 - Grainger-Barras
Pick 6 - Edwards
Pick 7 - Koschitzke
Pick 8 - Coleman-Jones
Pick 9 - Reeves
Pick 10 - Comben

Still one of my favourite posts

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Still one of my favourite posts

Where has he even gone, hasn't been here for ages!