Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

Which team has the better youth?

  • Adelaide

    Votes: 315 28.3%
  • Hawthorn

    Votes: 335 30.1%
  • North

    Votes: 462 41.5%

  • Total voters
    1,112

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Pretty fair to be honest.

My only query would be that Zurharr plays as tall as Fogarty, even though Fogarty is a bit taller.

I would also pick LDU, Powell and even Phillips ahead of Worpel, but I completely understand why you wouldn’t.


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Thanks.

Yes, separating talls/smalls is always fraught. FWIW, I have Zurhaar as a medium forward and 'talls' for me refers to KPP's and 'smalls' refers to everyone else (i.e. non KPP). Certianly similarity between Fogarty and Zurhaar in play style although as you say, Fogarty is 4cm taller (and smaller KPP height) whilst Zurhaar is more adept at ground level, physical pressure/tackling, etc so happy to retain the division. If Fogart were to move into the 'smalls' category, I'd have him about 4th (with Zurhaar still 1st obviously). I would find Zurhaar hard to rate in the 'talls' against genuine KPP's.

I think Worpel is slightly underrated amongst North Fans. Phillips has not done very much at AFL level yet, with no real standout performances of note and is yet to have 17 possessions in a game or more than 8 contested possessions. He looked a bit raw (and overawed) to me a little in the very early stages of his career. Powell has started quite well on the other hand but even then, comparing to Worpel, whilst being pretty similar, Worpel averaged more of the ball, more contested ball, more clearances, more tackles, more goals, more everything really in his first season (and that includes games with higher intensity - such as finals). Worpel followed it up with a B&F, top 30-40 in the Brownlow (equal with Cunnington), averaging 27 disposals, 6 clearances and 5 tackles in his second year. With others (notably Mitchell) playing the same role he has regressed back but I think is marked harsher due to his early highpoint. His 2021 was still remarkably similar to LDU, despite it being LDU's best season. I think if North had Worpel instead, his output would have continued and grown from his Mitchell-less season, playing the inside, tackling, clearance winning accumulator that feeds your outside players.

With all that said, I can also see why you would choose LDU or Powell first. As always, time will tell.
 
Hi all, just rejoining...

My attempt at who I would draft by position from these three clubs.

Criteria: 23 and under, with a minimum of 10 games played.

Tall forwards
  1. R. Thilthorpe
  2. N. Larkey
  3. J. Kochitzke
  4. M. Lewis
  5. D. Fogarty
Small Forwards
  1. C. Zurhaar
  2. J. Stephenson
  3. D. Moore
  4. T. Brockman
  5. S. Berry
Midfielders
  1. T. Thomas
  2. J. Simpkin
  3. J. Worpel
  4. L. Davies-Uniacke
  5. H. Schoenberg
Defenders (didn't separate talls and smalls as not enough talls fit the criteria)
  1. W. Day
  2. C. Jiath
  3. J. Butts
  4. J. Scrimshaw
  5. L. Scholl/C. Jones (couldn't split)
Rucks (had to reduce games criteria from 10 games to any games as otherwise basically no one qualifies)
  1. N. Reeves
  2. C. Coleman Jones
  3. M. Lynch
  4. E. Himmelberg* (like CCJ, may be more of a forward but slim pickings here so put him in the rucks, making him hard to rank)
  5. T. Xerri
Lewis higher than Kossie imo.
 
Simpkin, Thomas, Powell, Phillips, LDU and JHF are the makings of a brilliant midfield. That group has everything you need and if they develop as projected then that will likely be the dominant midfield group in the league in four or so seasons.

All of them were first rounders (off the top of my head - 1, 3, 4, 8, 12, 13) though which is something Hawthorn (via some questionable list decisions in hindsight) have had no access to until recently.

We are playing catchup.

I agree they have the makings of a brilliant midfield compared to Hawks and Adelaide youngsters but if you look comp wide I think they'll be in the mix with 5-6 emerging midfields like GCS (if they ever get their act together), GWS, Sydney, Essendon (can't believe we actually have a midfield), Carlton and Freo.
 

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I remember that game vs Hawthorn on a Friday night in late 2019. Shaw has just been given the job and we were playing the hawks, who jumped us, and we came back late and won.

Worpel was unstoppable early that night. We paid him no respect and he must have had around 20 possessions to half time.

I think the most important thing that helps young players show a bit early is running capacity. Something that Worpel seems to have sorted. That’s why I think ward will play well from the start.

None of Norths young mids, or olds mids for that matter, have ever been strong runners at draft time. Though Powell is probably the exception. Phillips is miles off it running wise (speed is very good but distance wise he struggles). As was LDU.
 
I remember that game vs Hawthorn on a Friday night in late 2019. Shaw has just been given the job and we were playing the hawks, who jumped us, and we came back late and won.

Worpel was unstoppable early that night. We paid him no respect and he must have had around 20 possessions to half time.

I think the most important thing that helps young players show a bit early is running capacity. Something that Worpel seems to have sorted. That’s why I think ward will play well from the start.

None of Norths young mids, or olds mids for that matter, have ever been strong runners at draft time. Though Powell is probably the exception. Phillips is miles off it running wise (speed is very good but distance wise he struggles). As was LDU.

Also the game that Mitchell Lewis really announced himself. It's an interesting one. I remember it being a disappointing loss but I came away from it quite excited about 2 of our young players.

Round 1 2022 could be a genuine barn burner because both sides are going to want to prove that they are ahead in their own rebuilds.
 
Also the game that Mitchell Lewis really announced himself. It's an interesting one. I remember it being a disappointing loss but I came away from it quite excited about 2 of our young players.

Round 1 2022 could be a genuine barn burner because both sides are going to want to prove that they are ahead in their own rebuilds.

Round 1 is going to be epic - Very excited to see North V Hawks. Going to be intriguing with Hawks first game under the Mitchell regime, as well as Nobles first full preseason.

Midfield battle was where it was won & lost last time. Simpkin, Cunnington & LDU blew the Hawk mids out of the water. For me it was a real sign of Hawthorns one dimensional midfield. Interested to see how Mitchell mixes that up over the preseason.
 
Round 1 is going to be epic - Very excited to see North V Hawks. Going to be intriguing with Hawks first game under the Mitchell regime, as well as Nobles first full preseason.

Midfield battle was where it was won & lost last time. Simpkin, Cunnington & LDU blew the Hawk mids out of the water. For me it was a real sign of Hawthorns one dimensional midfield. Interested to see how Mitchell mixes that up over the preseason.
I do think the midfield battle (with or without Mitchell) would be different, post bye or after we played you it had changed, Wingard going in there, Duke/Nash playing in there and a change of gameplan to be more attacking, which meant Mitchell could use and find the footy more forward of centre.
Worpel started to play well was kicking almost a goal a game (had a big goal a game streak) and was winning almost 25 disposals a week.

Jaeger started to get back to his best (he was awesome early in the year before his concussion and soreness) but at the same time as Wingard, Worpel, Mitchell (midfield wise) he started to dominate again.
 
Thanks.

Yes, separating talls/smalls is always fraught. FWIW, I have Zurhaar as a medium forward and 'talls' for me refers to KPP's and 'smalls' refers to everyone else (i.e. non KPP). Certianly similarity between Fogarty and Zurhaar in play style although as you say, Fogarty is 4cm taller (and smaller KPP height) whilst Zurhaar is more adept at ground level, physical pressure/tackling, etc so happy to retain the division. If Fogart were to move into the 'smalls' category, I'd have him about 4th (with Zurhaar still 1st obviously). I would find Zurhaar hard to rate in the 'talls' against genuine KPP's.

I think Worpel is slightly underrated amongst North Fans. Phillips has not done very much at AFL level yet, with no real standout performances of note and is yet to have 17 possessions in a game or more than 8 contested possessions. He looked a bit raw (and overawed) to me a little in the very early stages of his career. Powell has started quite well on the other hand but even then, comparing to Worpel, whilst being pretty similar, Worpel averaged more of the ball, more contested ball, more clearances, more tackles, more goals, more everything really in his first season (and that includes games with higher intensity - such as finals). Worpel followed it up with a B&F, top 30-40 in the Brownlow (equal with Cunnington), averaging 27 disposals, 6 clearances and 5 tackles in his second year. With others (notably Mitchell) playing the same role he has regressed back but I think is marked harsher due to his early highpoint. His 2021 was still remarkably similar to LDU, despite it being LDU's best season. I think if North had Worpel instead, his output would have continued and grown from his Mitchell-less season, playing the inside, tackling, clearance winning accumulator that feeds your outside players.

With all that said, I can also see why you would choose LDU or Powell first. As always, time will tell.
I'm not convinced with LDU as yet. Still has a long way to go.
 
Thanks.

Yes, separating talls/smalls is always fraught. FWIW, I have Zurhaar as a medium forward and 'talls' for me refers to KPP's and 'smalls' refers to everyone else (i.e. non KPP). Certianly similarity between Fogarty and Zurhaar in play style although as you say, Fogarty is 4cm taller (and smaller KPP height) whilst Zurhaar is more adept at ground level, physical pressure/tackling, etc so happy to retain the division. If Fogart were to move into the 'smalls' category, I'd have him about 4th (with Zurhaar still 1st obviously). I would find Zurhaar hard to rate in the 'talls' against genuine KPP's.

I think Worpel is slightly underrated amongst North Fans. Phillips has not done very much at AFL level yet, with no real standout performances of note and is yet to have 17 possessions in a game or more than 8 contested possessions. He looked a bit raw (and overawed) to me a little in the very early stages of his career. Powell has started quite well on the other hand but even then, comparing to Worpel, whilst being pretty similar, Worpel averaged more of the ball, more contested ball, more clearances, more tackles, more goals, more everything really in his first season (and that includes games with higher intensity - such as finals). Worpel followed it up with a B&F, top 30-40 in the Brownlow (equal with Cunnington), averaging 27 disposals, 6 clearances and 5 tackles in his second year. With others (notably Mitchell) playing the same role he has regressed back but I think is marked harsher due to his early highpoint. His 2021 was still remarkably similar to LDU, despite it being LDU's best season. I think if North had Worpel instead, his output would have continued and grown from his Mitchell-less season, playing the inside, tackling, clearance winning accumulator that feeds your outside players.

With all that said, I can also see why you would choose LDU or Powell first. As always, time will tell.
Think people miss the fact that yes Worpel over the entire of 2021 wasn't at his best, or 2019. But from the GWS game till about the Pies game over a month or so period he was averaging 2019 numbers but with a goal a game.

Would've been 25 or so disposals a game with 6-7 ish clearances, 6 ish tackles and a goal a game (score involvements also high.)

Yes it's only a small period but backend of a season to finish like that is better than nothing.
 
I do think the midfield battle (with or without Mitchell) would be different, post bye or after we played you it had changed, Wingard going in there, Duke/Nash playing in there and a change of gameplan to be more attacking, which meant Mitchell could use and find the footy more forward of centre.
Worpel started to play well was kicking almost a goal a game (had a big goal a game streak) and was winning almost 25 disposals a week.

Jaeger started to get back to his best (he was awesome early in the year before his concussion and soreness) but at the same time as Wingard, Worpel, Mitchell (midfield wise) he started to dominate again.

Yeah you would think that, would you, Dom? I disagree.

Firstly, Wingard did spend time in the middle, and was clearly one of your best - finishing with 21 disposals & 2 goals.

Sorry, I don't see Nash & Newcombe making a significant difference to the outcome. They are inferior players to Norths midfield that day.

Worpel & Mitchell were outplayed on the day.

The final clearance numbers were 28-50. Centre clearances were 9-19.
 
Also the game that Mitchell Lewis really announced himself. It's an interesting one. I remember it being a disappointing loss but I came away from it quite excited about 2 of our young players.

Round 1 2022 could be a genuine barn burner because both sides are going to want to prove that they are ahead in their own rebuilds.

Do you think Hawthorn has started its rebuild yet?

Assuming you nail all your draft picks in the next four years I don't see you competing until at least 2026, by which stage you'll need to have replaced or be thinking about replacing McEvoy, Breust, Ceglar, Shiels, Mitchell, Wingard, JO'M and O'Brien. Hell, even guys like Sicily will be nearly 30 by then.

When I look at your list of 25 and under players I see a lot of holes to fill


1642480254877.png

Hardwick, Worpel, Jiath and Moore are the only guys on that list who made the top 10 of your B&F in 2021. North had Simpkin (B&F), LDU, McKay, Zurhaar, Thomas, Larkey and Kane Turner.

I think your rebuild hasn't started yet
 
Yeah you would think that, would you, Dom? I disagree.

Firstly, Wingard did spend time in the middle, and was clearly one of your best - finishing with 21 disposals & 2 goals.

Sorry, I don't see Nash & Newcombe making a significant difference to the outcome. They are inferior players to Norths midfield that day.

Worpel & Mitchell were outplayed on the day.

The final clearance numbers were 28-50. Centre clearances were 9-19.
He spent a little time in the middle against you, but alot of his time i felt was spent as a half forward pushing up rather than starting in the centre square (like he did post bye.)

Nash/Newcombe aren't exactly going to win a game for you atleast at the moment but what they do is play their role which is as the big bodied mid which helps the other mids.

Mitchell didn't play in a role he'd like, while Jaeger/Worps spent time as deep forwards. Was more out coaching than out playing. Was very good from Noble.

But yes we were outplayed by far and i don't think there's anything to disagree with bar i feel with or without Mitchell (as changes were made afterwards) that changes were and would be made.
 
What makes me excited for when all 3 teams will play each other in 2022 is the coaching, all coaches are relatively new, Noble, Mitchell and Nicks. There's no "Clarko factor" anymore and it's not like another team like Suns who still have had a coach for a decent period.

It'll be interesting to see gameday matchup and quarter time changes from all 3 teams.
 

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Do you think Hawthorn has started its rebuild yet?

Assuming you nail all your draft picks in the next four years I don't see you competing until at least 2026, by which stage you'll need to have replaced or be thinking about replacing McEvoy, Breust, Ceglar, Shiels, Mitchell, Wingard, JO'M and O'Brien. Hell, even guys like Sicily will be nearly 30 by then.

When I look at your list of 25 and under players I see a lot of holes to fill


View attachment 1312773

Hardwick, Worpel, Jiath and Moore are the only guys on that list who made the top 10 of your B&F in 2021. North had Simpkin (B&F), LDU, McKay, Zurhaar, Thomas, Larkey and Kane Turner.

I think your rebuild hasn't started yet

That was a B&F snapshot that didn't take into account injury affected and debut seasons from Day, DGB, Brockman, Newcombe, Reeves, Bramble, Scrimshaw, Kosi just to name a few. Plus 3 selections inside pick 30 of the 2021 draft. Rebuild is further ahead than some opposition supporters are giving it credit for.
It's nowhere near complete, but it's a solid foundation.
 
Do you think Hawthorn has started its rebuild yet?

Assuming you nail all your draft picks in the next four years I don't see you competing until at least 2026, by which stage you'll need to have replaced or be thinking about replacing McEvoy, Breust, Ceglar, Shiels, Mitchell, Wingard, JO'M and O'Brien. Hell, even guys like Sicily will be nearly 30 by then.

When I look at your list of 25 and under players I see a lot of holes to fill


View attachment 1312773

Hardwick, Worpel, Jiath and Moore are the only guys on that list who made the top 10 of your B&F in 2021. North had Simpkin (B&F), LDU, McKay, Zurhaar, Thomas, Larkey and Kane Turner.

I think your rebuild hasn't started yet

I think the rebuild has started, yes.

Does that mean there are no holes left to fill? Of course not. You are right, there are plenty to fill. Rebuilds don't start completed or without holes - otherwise it wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

2026 is too far away to say we won't compete until then. It's a hard enough game to predict a year in advance, let alone 5. 3 years ago, Collingwood were in a Grand Final, 2 years ago, Melbourne nearly won the spoon. You should see how different our list is from 2 years ago, let alone 5.

In terms of the players to replace, Ceglar and O'Brien are already at other clubs (and were battlers anyway). Reeves (and Lynch) are the incumbents for McEvoy's (and Ceglar's) role. McEvoy is nearly cooked already. Shiels is a B grade foot soldier who is not too hard to replace whilst Breust is quality and will take some work. Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard could conceivably be there for the next tilt. If not, that is a fair bit more quality to replace.

In terms of the B&F, Day and Jiath were both in the top few for votes per game. Injuries prevented them from finishing high. Bramble also played in the second half of the season and ended up on 41 votes from 10 games. Double that and he is top 10 too.

Work to be done but there's emerging talent there.
 
Thanks.

Yes, separating talls/smalls is always fraught. FWIW, I have Zurhaar as a medium forward and 'talls' for me refers to KPP's and 'smalls' refers to everyone else (i.e. non KPP). Certianly similarity between Fogarty and Zurhaar in play style although as you say, Fogarty is 4cm taller (and smaller KPP height) whilst Zurhaar is more adept at ground level, physical pressure/tackling, etc so happy to retain the division. If Fogart were to move into the 'smalls' category, I'd have him about 4th (with Zurhaar still 1st obviously). I would find Zurhaar hard to rate in the 'talls' against genuine KPP's.

I think Worpel is slightly underrated amongst North Fans. Phillips has not done very much at AFL level yet, with no real standout performances of note and is yet to have 17 possessions in a game or more than 8 contested possessions. He looked a bit raw (and overawed) to me a little in the very early stages of his career. Powell has started quite well on the other hand but even then, comparing to Worpel, whilst being pretty similar, Worpel averaged more of the ball, more contested ball, more clearances, more tackles, more goals, more everything really in his first season (and that includes games with higher intensity - such as finals). Worpel followed it up with a B&F, top 30-40 in the Brownlow (equal with Cunnington), averaging 27 disposals, 6 clearances and 5 tackles in his second year. With others (notably Mitchell) playing the same role he has regressed back but I think is marked harsher due to his early highpoint. His 2021 was still remarkably similar to LDU, despite it being LDU's best season. I think if North had Worpel instead, his output would have continued and grown from his Mitchell-less season, playing the inside, tackling, clearance winning accumulator that feeds your outside players.

With all that said, I can also see why you would choose LDU or Powell first. As always, time will tell.

I don’t underrate Worpel, I just don’t feel he has the ceiling that the players I mentioned have. His first season was incredible and his second and third season were probably marked a bit harshly because of his first year. But there is no doubting that he has stagnated in the past 2 years and honestly has probably gone backwards. I do agree that Mitchell coming back has hindered his game a bit though.

You’re comparing stats between Phillips and Worpel from their first year, but that doesn’t really mean a hell of a lot. Players develop at a different rate and clearly Phillips was less developed than what Worpel was going into his first year. You compared Worpel and LDU in an earlier post and mentioned LDU’s gradual rise. It’s pretty clear that Phillips is in a similar boat and was never going to set the world on fire in his first season. You also need to consider Phillips played no footy as a 17 year old and also missed a portion of preseason with injury. That’s not an ideal start for a first year player entering the system. He is also a pure mid and was given very little midfield time. He was playing mainly on a flank which just isn’t his go, just like it’s not Worpel’s. If Phillips was given the same opportunity in the midfield as Worpel in his first year, I think what he is capable of would be much clearer. I find the ‘overawed’ comment completely inaccurate to be honest. Admittedly he struggled to get his hands on the ball, but when he did his composure was superb. His kicking inside 50 and ability to lower his eyes was second to none.

I guess for me worst case scenario LDU, Powell and Phillips will get near enough to Worpel in career output. But I think their ceiling is higher with the potential for all of them to be better. Probably a bit biased, but that’s just how I see it.


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Also the game that Mitchell Lewis really announced himself. It's an interesting one. I remember it being a disappointing loss but I came away from it quite excited about 2 of our young players.

Round 1 2022 could be a genuine barn burner because both sides are going to want to prove that they are ahead in their own rebuilds.

Depends how Hawthorn go about it. They could roll out a midfield of Mitchell, O’meara, Wingard, Shiels, Worpel and win. That doesn’t prove they’re ahead on anything but the win on the day.


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Depends how Hawthorn go about it. They could roll out a midfield of Mitchell, O’meara, Wingard, Shiels, Worpel and win. That doesn’t prove they’re ahead on anything but the win on the day.


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They’d be ahead on building a winning culture?
 
I'm keen to see what our boys can do with an actual SC team behind them.
The early signs look very good.
 
Good point, but it’s a short sighted approach in my view.

Assuming Ward is ready round 1, how would you like your midfield set up?


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If at least one of Maginness, Ward, Macdonald or Nash are rotating primarily through the guts in round 1 while we have a fully fit list to pick from it will mean those players have 1. Earnt the spot and 2. Sam Mitchell is clued in to where we need to go.
 
Good point, but it’s a short sighted approach in my view.

Assuming Ward is ready round 1, how would you like your midfield set up?


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Good question. I’m not even sure.

The biggest criticism of Clarkson both internally and externally, was that he kept faith in the same players and the same system for too long, so the intriguing part about Mitchell is that he clearly has different ideas(see him turning Nash into a 197cm inside mid).

I think Ward is a lock for round 1 from what I have seen at training btw, but I would understand if we choose to let him build into the year. MacDonald is also impressing, for anyone who wants a supercoach rookie.

I would like to see the same dynamic in the middle that we had late in 2021, when Nash and Newcombe came in and we did so well out the middle for a change(JOM and Worpel injured) against top 4 sides, but it’s very hard to tell if Mitchell will set up in this way or go for all his best set up from the start - Tom, JOM, Wingard, Worpel in the centre bounces - but with a new system. Having the bigger bodies of Nash and Newcombe in there certainly changed the dynamic.

I understand Shiels, Howe and Phillips will most likely play games in 2022, but I think they’re the ones who really should feel the pressure of the youngsters(Maginness, Ward, MacDonald, Downie) trying to go passed them. Maybe that happens from Round 1, but that’s the intriguing part, we don’t know.
 
andrewb

I think the rebuild has started, though there is still a fair way to go. We have had to be creative and picked up players like Bramble, Reeves and Newcombe from unconventional avenues.

Team of 25 and under:

Hardwick - ????? - ?????
Scrimshaw - DGB - CJ

Reeves - Worpel - Newcombe
Bramble - ????? - Day

Moore - Kosi - ?????
Brockman - Lewis - ?????

Int: Nash - ????? - ????? - ?????

Depth: Morrison, Lynch, Phillips, Howe

Guys developing: Ward (pick 7), Butler (23), MacDonald (26), Mitchell (29), Maginess (29), Downie (35), Serong (53), Morris (57), Jeka (rookie), Long (rookie), Callow (mid-season)

Players 26 - 30: Impey, Sicily, Frost, JOM, Wingard, Mitchell

We need class midfielders (hopefully that's Ward, Maginess and MacDonald), a FB, and we need one of Jeka, Kosi or Lewis to really take off.
 
I think the rebuild has started, yes.

Does that mean there are no holes left to fill? Of course not. You are right, there are plenty to fill. Rebuilds don't start completed or without holes - otherwise it wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

2026 is too far away to say we won't compete until then. It's a hard enough game to predict a year in advance, let alone 5. 3 years ago, Collingwood were in a Grand Final, 2 years ago, Melbourne nearly won the spoon. You should see how different our list is from 2 years ago, let alone 5.

In terms of the players to replace, Ceglar and O'Brien are already at other clubs (and were battlers anyway). Reeves (and Lynch) are the incumbents for McEvoy's (and Ceglar's) role. McEvoy is nearly cooked already. Shiels is a B grade foot soldier who is not too hard to replace whilst Breust is quality and will take some work. Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard could conceivably be there for the next tilt. If not, that is a fair bit more quality to replace.

In terms of the B&F, Day and Jiath were both in the top few for votes per game. Injuries prevented them from finishing high. Bramble also played in the second half of the season and ended up on 41 votes from 10 games. Double that and he is top 10 too.

Work to be done but there's emerging talent there.
I think you’re forgetting the sheer number of first and second round picks (and AFL donated priority picks) that you got to build the list that won you four premierships.

There are some good young players coming through but compared to other clubs the cupboard is bare. Hugely reliant on aging senior players
 
I think you’re forgetting the sheer number of first and second round picks (and AFL donated priority picks) that you got to build the list that won you four premierships.

There are some good young players coming through but compared to other clubs the cupboard is bare. Hugely reliant on aging senior players
When we knocked off Dogs, Lions, Swans and drew with Dees we had between 10-13 players who were under 50 games, and some of our best kids weren’t even playing(Jiath, Day, DGB, Moore) in these games.

We were slow to hit the draft, but the cupboard ain’t bare.
 
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