Strategy Who Captains the club in 2021?

Who takes over captaincy in 2021?

  • JOM

    Votes: 42 28.6%
  • Tom

    Votes: 8 5.4%
  • Gunston

    Votes: 92 62.6%
  • Other - please comment

    Votes: 5 3.4%

  • Total voters
    147

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Blackhawk42

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The issue with JOM being captain is that he going to become the whipping boy, more so than TOB and Morrison are currently.

Jagers major weakness is his disposal by foot. He gets a little bit of flack for it but generally since he is winning a fair bit of the ball this deficiency is overlooked.

I guarantee once he is captain he will be judged far more harshly. I can't think of many captains in the AFL who have a major weakness in their kicking skills.

He will certainly need to win me over if he is given the job.
 

Billyc

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I think they're looking for a longer term captain- Gunners would have been perfect if they'd given it to him two years ago, but I think JOM is the man
JOM is only 2 years younger than Gunston, has a banged up body and is an inferior player. Personally I’d be more confident of Gunston playing good footy in 3 years time. He has always been very durable.

I just don’t think we have a long term leader ready to take on the role. That lack of leadership is a major problem. If we want a 5 year guy, Sicily is the best bet.
 
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Strapping Young Lad

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The issue with JOM being captain is that he going to become the whipping boy, more so than TOB and Morrison are currently.

Jagers major weakness is his disposal by foot. He gets a little bit of flack for it but generally since he is winning a fair bit of the ball this deficiency is overlooked.

I guarantee once he is captain he will be judged far more harshly. I can't think of many captains in the AFL who have a major weakness in their kicking skills.

He will certainly need to win me over if he is given the job.
JOM’s kicking is not perfect but he’s also not as poor as it’s often made out.

Could his disposal be better? Yes, and maybe his efficiency improves when he’s got another good ball user next to him that he can hand off to for the delivery by foot. I think we all know our midfield will benefit from this both individually and collectively.

What he generally does is have quite good footskills in general play where he is moving, until that time that he has to hit a forward on the chest, where it becomes a 60/40 proposition more often than not. I feel his disposal when he’s stopped and is going to kick over the mark or to a free player is where he leans back and doesn’t dispose as well.

As an example of how I feel his disposal is somewhat over critiqued, the player on the right(below) is one of the most hyped midfielders in the game who is continuously rated in the best 5 players in the game, and on the left we see Jaeger with a -3% disp eff differential. He is also the captain of his club.

E92D17CC-EA34-4767-A95A-E6CDC4B80E73.jpeg
 

rei154

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JOM is only 2 years younger than Gunston, has a banged up body and is an inferior player. Personally I’d be more confident of Gunston playing good footy in 3 years time.

I just don’t think we have a long term leader ready to take on the role. That lack of leadership is a major problem. If we want a 5 year guy, Sicily is the best bet.
Would have loved it to be Sic but I think because of the injury we're in strife on that front.

I think JOM is the kind of dude who would rise to the occasion with this stuff (hopefully anyway).

If Gunston becomes captain I won't be at all mad though!
 

Billyc

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JOM’s kicking issue isn’t the % of inefficient disposals, it’s the clangers, especially the turnovers when he has the ball in space. A clanger is different to an inefficient disposal. His clangers relative to total possessions is about the worst in the comp.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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JOM’s kicking issue isn’t the % of inefficient disposals, it’s the clangers, especially the turnovers when he has the ball in space. A clanger is different to an inefficient disposal. His clangers relative to total possessions is about the worst in the comp.
Is there any data to suggest he makes more clangers than anyone else per possession?
 

Billyc

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Is there any data to suggest he makes more clangers than anyone else per possession?
According to Footy Wire in 2020 he averaged the 2nd most clangers per game (4.33), the 39th most possessions per game (20.83) and the 42nd most contested possessions (9.0).
 
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Bugs1977

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Vandenberg kind of captaincy in thst real success won't come till after his tenure/ retirement?
Yep and I’m cool with that. After the short reigns of Roughie and Stratton I really think we need stability in who is named our next captain. Gunston should’ve been named captain instead of Stratton and could’ve held the role until he retired but that ship has sailed and there’s no guarantee that he’ll be a Hawk come 2021. Like a lot I voted JOM but feel that Gunners should’ve already had the role but we’ll know soon enough.
 

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Strapping Young Lad

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According to Footy Wire in 2020 he averaged the 2nd most clangers per game (4.33), the 39th most possessions per game (20.83) and the 42nd most contested possessions (9.0).
That AA midfielder that I screengrabbed earlier in comparison to JOM had equal disposals and clangers this year.

So is Bontempelli arguably the equal worst clanger per disposal player in the comp? I wouldn't think so.

I just think we're incredibly demanding on JOM to hit every single target, which has always been the case for whatever reason(because he's not home grown?), while some other players have gotten a bit of a free pass over the journey when they stuff up kicks.

Luke Hodge for example, who averaged the exact same number of clangers in his last 3 years at Hawthorn as JOM, yet we all pretty happy with him having the ball in his hand and allowed for the occasional bad disposal.

I guess the point I am making is that yes JOM misses some targets, but we slam him a bit too much for it, and maybe it's got more to do with how we're travelling on the scoreboard, and the consequence, than the number of errors he makes by foot.
 

Billyc

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That AA midfielder that I screengrabbed earlier in comparison to JOM had equal disposals and clangers this year.

So is Bontempelli arguably the equal worst clanger per disposal player in the comp? I wouldn't think so.

I just think we're incredibly demanding on JOM to hit every single target, which has always been the case for whatever reason(because he's not home grown?), while some other players have gotten a bit of a free pass over the journey when they stuff up kicks.

Luke Hodge for example, who averaged the exact same number of clangers in his last 3 years at Hawthorn as JOM, yet we all pretty happy with him having the ball in his hand and allowed for the occasional bad disposal.

I guess the point I am making is that yes JOM misses some targets, but we slam him a bit too much for it, and maybe it's got more to do with how we're travelling on the scoreboard, and the consequence, than the number of errors he makes by foot.
Bontempelli averaged 3.5 clangers per game this year, not 4.3.

You are however probably right that JOM's errors get highlighted a lot. I think each of he, Mitchell and now Worpel suffer for playing alongside one another as when your three primary ball winners are not great ball users, the errors really stand out and really hurt. The Crows have faced the same issue with the Crouch brothers and Sloane, each of whom are individually solid players.

I don't think the Hodge example is apt. Hodge was a playmaker who would take risky kicks and some would not come off, much like Sicily now. That's different to turning over the ball in space. A lot of playmakers have high clanger counts. But that's not JOM's role.

Some players make a lot of mistakes because they try to do too much. JOM can be a victim of that. One of his problems I think is that he has never fully adapted to not having the capabilities he had before his injuries and still thinks he can do the things he could do when he was 20. It is easier to play within ones limitations if they have always been there whereas he is someone whose limitations were not there when he was younger. But he's been back playing footy for 4 years now - he needs to better understand what he can and can't do because he tries to do things that he just shouldn't (like the fend offs).
 

Gralin

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Bontempelli averaged 3.5 clangers per game this year, not 4.3.

You are however probably right that JOM's errors get highlighted a lot. I think each of he, Mitchell and now Worpel suffer for playing alongside one another as when your three primary ball winners are not great ball users, the errors really stand out and really hurt. The Crows have faced the same issue with the Crouch brothers and Sloane, each of whom are individually solid players.

I don't think the Hodge example is apt. Hodge was a playmaker who would take risky kicks and some would not come off, much like Sicily now. That's different to turning over the ball in space. A lot of playmakers have high clanger counts. But that's not JOM's role.

Some players make a lot of mistakes because they try to do too much. JOM can be a victim of that. One of his problems I think is that he has never fully adapted to not having the capabilities he had before his injuries and still thinks he can do the things he could do when he was 20. It is easier to play within ones limitations if they have always been there whereas he is someone whose limitations were not there when he was younger. But he's been back playing footy for 4 years now - he needs to better understand what he can and can't do because he tries to do things that he just shouldn't (like the fend offs).
The difference almost exactly matches the difference in average frees against which also count as clangers

They both have almost identical kicking efficiency as well 51% to Jaeger to 53% to Bont.

The raw stats for this year are quute close
 

MrPremiership

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How long can Gunston play for?

After having Rough captain for 2 years, then Stratton for 2 years....do we want another "short term" captain for 2-3 years, or someone who can get 5-6 years there?

Another thought, if we're in for a sustained period of rebuilding, do we want to heap that pressure on JOM as a new captain, or is it better suited to a Gunston type to do it for a few years, then when we're challenging again, give it over to JOM?
 

Bugs1977

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How long can Gunston play for?

After having Rough captain for 2 years, then Stratton for 2 years....do we want another "short term" captain for 2-3 years, or someone who can get 5-6 years there?

Another thought, if we're in for a sustained period of rebuilding, do we want to heap that pressure on JOM as a new captain, or is it better suited to a Gunston type to do it for a few years, then when we're challenging again, give it over to JOM?
I just kind of feel whomever they give it to they need to nail the decision this time. We've been a rudderless boat with our leadership since Hodgey handed over the C.
 

Rev08

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Disposal efficiency is a garbage statistic. Kick it 40+ metres and it is considered an effective disposal regardless of the result - it's how Dane Swan got away with butchering the ball his entire career.

Anyone who thinks JOM's disposal by foot is even close to Bontempelli's does not watch enough actual football.

We should choose the best captain for our footy club right now, even if it means they are only captain for two years. We are at a critical crossroad as a footy club and need the right person leading the playing group. If that is JOM, great, but if you're giving it to him because he is two years younger then that is the wrong call IMO.
 

grumbleguts

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Disposal efficiency is a garbage statistic. Kick it 40+ metres and it is considered an effective disposal regardless of the result - it's how Dane Swan got away with butchering the ball his entire career.

Anyone who thinks JOM's disposal by foot is even close to Bontempelli's does not watch enough actual football.

We should choose the best captain for our footy club right now, even if it means they are only captain for two years. We are at a critical crossroad as a footy club and need the right person leading the playing group. If that is JOM, great, but if you're giving it to him because he is two years younger then that is the wrong call IMO.
Bontempelli get's to kick the ball standing in the centre of a protected zone, the only time JOM get's that luxury, his arms are in the air, while someone else is kicking it over him.
 

cryptor

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Sicily still ticks all the boxes for me.

The fact he'll miss most of the season in rehab doesn't matter. Whoever is named captain could just as easily get a LTI in the first 5 minutes of round 1 and then be out for even longer than Sicily will be.

Sicily captain. O'Meara VC.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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Sicily still ticks all the boxes for me.

The fact he'll miss most of the season in rehab doesn't matter. Whoever is named captain could just as easily get a LTI in the first 5 minutes of round 1 and then be out for even longer than Sicily will be.

Sicily captain. O'Meara VC.
If the onfield leadership is as poor as we all think it is from the outside looking in, then we simply can't have a captain that we know will be sitting in the stands.
 

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