Who had best historic All Time 22?

[gungho]

Waterhouse?
Carr?

Had Carr in my original list then squeezed him out. Probably better career at Port than Freo.....but still a good player.
Clive was an enigma but not that great a footballer to be honest. (especially not for a no 1 draft pick)

 

[footyfan1978]

You can troll all you like, but even the majority of Eagles supporters would admit that Dunstall is better than JJ Kennedy (and always will be).

Dunstall is rated as one of the top 5 forwards of all time for good reason. Kennedy is a great player, but he won't be an AFL Legend.

Huh?
Maybe top 10 at best , but FMD, he is not top 5 of all time. For starters, off top of my head can think of names like Bob Pratt, John Coleman, Royce Hart, Wayne Carey and Lockett rated higher by most with any sense of the fullness of league history.
Then other guys like Coventry, Hudson, Ablett, Jesaulenko, Kernahan, Laurie Naish and Blight seem bigger names in history of game as great forwards.
He is probably in the group with Doug Wade, Peter McKenna, Soapy Vallence and Matthew Lloyd as champion forwards but only chance of being top 10 of all time. No certainty of that either. Great forward but lets not stretch the reality of history.

 

[HairyO]

Salmon should be in our team as the perfect bench player - relief ruck or forward. I still don’t understand why our supporters underrate his career for us. His goal tally in finals is enough for the respect he deserves.

I'd say Sheedy is a large part of it. Salmon and Sheedy butted heads often and Sheedy would punish him for it. Would force him to play out of position or be dropped and have the crowd booing him, just to make a point.

Salmon's Open Mike was an incredible insight in to what went on.

While at Hawthorn he was pretty much our shining light during a period of terrible football.

Huh?
Maybe top 10 at best , but FMD, he is not top 5 of all time. For starters, off top of my head can think of names like Bob Pratt, John Coleman, Royce Hart, Wayne Carey and Lockett rated higher by most with any sense of the fullness of league history.
Then other guys like Coventry, Hudson, Ablett, Jesaulenko, Kernahan, Laurie Naish and Blight seem bigger names in history of game as great forwards.
He is probably in the group with Doug Wade, Peter McKenna, Soapy Vallence and Matthew Lloyd as champion forwards but only chance of being top 10 of all time. No certainty of that either. Great forward but lets not stretch the reality of history.

Dunstall had a better career than Hudson, Naish, Blight, Coventry, Kernahan, Lloyd and Jezza.

And at his peak he was equal with Hudson and Ablett. The only FF better than him was Lockett. But even then, you weigh up Lockett being the sole target in a s**t team yet still doing incredibly well - against Dunstall who would hand off as many goals to teammates as he would take himself... and if he was as greedy as Lloyd he would have kicked 1,500 goals or more.

Carey was a better forward, but not by much. Dunstall clearly a far superior goal kicker, but Carey around the ground dominated more - but Hawthorn didnt need Dunstall to do that. I bet he would have been just fine at CHF too.

 

[footyfan1978]

Dunstall had a better career than Hudson, Naish, Blight, Coventry, Kernahan, Lloyd and Jezza.

And at his peak he was equal with Hudson and Ablett. The only FF better than him was Lockett. But even then, you weigh up Lockett being the sole target in a s**t team yet still doing incredibly well - against Dunstall who would hand off as many goals to teammates as he would take himself... and if he was as greedy as Lloyd he would have kicked 1,500 goals or more.

Do not agree at all but understand Hawk fans loving him in a relative golden era. Stats, he has wonderful numbers for goals kicked but that is not the be all and end all. Top 5 of ALL TIME. Laughable.
FMD, no sense of history beyond last 30 years.

 

[HairyO]

Do not agree at all but understand Hawk fans loving him in a relative golden era. Stats, he has wonderful numbers for goals kicked but that is not the be all and end all. Top 5 of ALL TIME. Laughable.
FMD, no sense of history beyond last 30 years.

Ive been watching football for 40 years. Plus, in the last 40 years Dunstall was better than all bar Carey and Lockett. Hudson would have been better if not for injury. Coleman was brilliant but for a short period of time. Thus my point about his career.

 

[footyfan1978]

Ive been watching football for 40 years. Plus, in the last 40 years Dunstall was better than all bar Carey and Lockett. Hudson would have been better if not for injury. Coleman was brilliant but for a short period of time. Thus my point about his career.

You could make a decent case he maybe 3rd best in last 40 years. I do not agree he is but I can see how a Hawks fan may view him higher than I do. However the claim was top 5 of all time as if there is no doubt do not buy for one moment. That claim by previous poster as certain top 5 of ALL TIME as a given is laughable though.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

You could make a decent case he maybe 3rd best in last 40 years. I do not agree he is but I can see how a Hawks fan may view him higher than I do. However the claim was top 5 of all time as if there is no doubt do not buy for one moment. That claim by previous poster as certain top 5 of ALL TIME as a given is laughable though.

I've read your thoughts on Dunstall before and I think its clear you underrate him. Certain Top 5 maybe not as there is subjectivity in any such list but in the conversation for top 5 he absolutely is - which means the claim is certainly not "laughable".

If you dismiss my opinion as a Hawthorn supporter...Wayne Carey named Dunstall as the best player he had ever seen. Similarly, Glenn Archer, James Hird, Shane Crawford, Mike Sheahan and Stephen Kernahan all rated him ahead of Tony Lockett in a survey of 'top 5 players you've seen' doing the rounds a few years ago. I'm sure you wouldn't say Lockett being top 5 is laughable.

Dunstall kicked 1254 goals (3rd all time) and gave plenty more away than others at the top of the leader board. He arguably contributed more goals than any other player ever (despite fractured skull, 2 knees, etc. at his peak).

He also was one of the earliest full forward pioneers of defensive pressure, doing the team things and chasing opponents long before that was commonplace.

Some try to dismiss his achievement because he played in a good team, which of course completely ignores the fact that Hawthorn were mostly average in the 90's and Dunstall's goal average went up during this time.

Dunstall is well and truly in the mix for top 5 forward of all time and certainly well ahead of JJ Kennedy, which was the original point made by the poster you quoted.

 

[footyfan1978]

I've read your thoughts on Dunstall before and I think its clear you underrate him. .

Dunstall is well and truly in the mix for top 5 forward of all time and certainly well ahead of JJ Kennedy, which was the original point made by the poster you quoted.

Touche, I've read your thoughts on Dunstall and consider you overrate him.
He is ahead of Josh Kennedy. Not in question at all. But original poster overstating his standing claiming him top 5 like it is universal agreement is indeed laughable. Last 40 years, absolutely!!! In the mix for top 10 all time. Fair chance. Which is where his context of greatness is.
All time top 5, is where the overrating is.

 

[Heaps of fun]

North's has Carey so North's.

 

[Snake_Baker]

All Collingwood Twos

B. C Dibbs ~ W Proudfoot ~ W Libbis

HB. W Picken ~ D Minogue ~ W Twomey

C. G Brown ~ M Whelan ~ D Millane

HF. W Richardson ~ M Weideman ~ L Tulloch (c)

F. P Moore ~ P McKenna ~ E Lockwood

R. G Angus ~ D Tuddenham ~ B Price

I. N Mann ~ W Strickland ~ L Richards ~ A Shaw

C. A Kyne

At least this team doesn't have three full forwards in it.

 

[bugalugs213]

B: Collins, Langford, Ayres
HB: Hodge, Knights, Burgoyne
C: Crawford, Mitchell, Dipper
HF: Franklin, Brereton, Buckenara
F: Dunstall, Hudson, Rioli
Rucks: Scott, Tuck, Matthews
INT: Platten, Jarman, Lake, Mew.

 

[Monkey King]

Carey was a better forward, but not by much ... I bet he would have been just fine at CHF too.

Carey was a fair bit better. Dunstall was very good at what he did, but I seriously doubt he had the tools to be as good at CHF. One could easily argue that Carey, Lockett, Ablett were better forwards from his own era. So thinking about guys like Hudson, Pratt and Coleman might make his spot as a Top 5 GOAT not a given.

 

[HairyO]

Carey was a fair bit better. Dunstall was very good at what he did, but I seriously doubt he had the tools to be as good at CHF. One could easily argue that Carey, Lockett, Ablett were better forwards from his own era. So thinking about guys like Hudson, Pratt and Coleman might make his spot as a Top 5 GOAT not a given.

I'd say Carey may not have been as good at FF. Dunstall was a far more accurate kick, so if Carey was getting the ball 40m out more often then the team may not have converted to as many goals.

They each played where they were best suited.

And Hudson was a freak. Could easily have been the greatest player ever if not for being cruelled by injury - which doesnt even take in to account full backs trying to knock him out every single week because they were thugs and he was far too good for them. But he wasnt in the game long enough.

Dunstall was a champion longer.

 

[Snake_Baker]

B: Collins, Langford, Ayres
HB: Hodge, Knights, Burgoyne
C: Crawford, Mitchell, Dipper
HF: Franklin, Brereton, Buckenara
F: Dunstall, Hudson, Rioli
Rucks: Scott, Tuck, Matthews
INT: Platten, Jarman, Lake, Mew.

I would be putting Kel Moore in and Langford on the bench.

I highly doubt Tuck would make that side.

 

[Monkey King]

I'd say Carey may not have been as good at FF.

I’d agree. Carey best exploited his talents at CHF, just as a Piggy best exploited his at FF. Not a doubt in my mind though that Carey would’ve been a better FF than Dunstall a CHF. Carey could kick 80+ goals from a hybrid CHF role. He could’ve kicked a hundred I reckon if he played deep fulltime. Doubt he could’ve kicked 145 like Dunstall once did though.

 

[HairyO]

I would be putting Kel Moore in and Langford on the bench.

I highly doubt Tuck would make that side.

Tuck would easily make our best side. Massively underrated by so many.

And I'd say Langford at FB, Moore on the bench. But Mew has to be at CHB. Easily our best ever and one of the best ever. Knights can be on the bench because he can play just as well forward as back.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Tuck would easily make our best side. Massively underrated by so many.

And I'd say Langford at FB, Moore on the bench. But Mew has to be at CHB. Easily our best ever and one of the best ever. Knights can be on the bench because he can play just as well forward as back.

I figure you must be fairly young.

There's not a snowflakes chance in hell that Peter Knights makes way for Chris Mew.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Knights can play forward too. I agree Mew over Knights is debatable, but it doesn't have to be either/or

Graham Arthur needs to get a gig....

Not a big fan of Lake in these teams, sometimes seen on the bench, but if he played his whole career with us then possible.

 

[HairyO]

I figure you must be fairly young.

There's not a snowflakes chance in hell that Peter Knights makes way for Chris Mew.

You must not have watched much football from the 70s and 80s. But maybe trust the people at Hawthorn who did. The people who put Mew at CHB in our team of the century. Not Knights.

Mew's style of football is exactly what we see today from CHB. He was ahead of his time.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Mew gets in the team and only has one spot to play. Knights gets moved due to his versatility.

But hey, we have Dunstall in the forward pocket, or Hudson a pocket, or Buddy on a HFF flank, Platten or Mitchell off the ball, or Collins not even in the team, Pritchard off the wing, or two norm smith winners not in contention, and so on.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Knights would EAT Mew as a footballer.

It's not even a contest.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Knights would EAT Mew as a footballer.

It's not even a contest.

A lot of the objective commentators were upset that Knights was not in the AFL TOTC. He would have won a brownlow if not for injury. And he was a phenomenon.

But i don't think you realize how highly Mew is rated by Hawk's fans, and he is viewed as underrated by the media and public. He had that "never beaten" mystery to his career in an era of champion CHF's that he lined up against every week and in finals.

Their value to Hawthorn success is very very difficult to spllt.

 

[HairyO]

Knights would EAT Mew as a footballer.

It's not even a contest.

Allan Jeans said that Mew was the first person picked every single week. He felt he was the most important player in the team.

So not only the Team of the Century people saw Mew as the better player, but the coach felt he was the key to the team.

Knights was a brilliant player, but flashy and prone to injury. Mew was dependable.

 

[00Stinger]

Carlton's

Doull Silvagni Docherty
Kouta Southby Mckay

Nicholls Judd Williams
Bradley Ratten Barassi

Kernahan Jesaulenko
Bradley Fevola Betts

Johnston Sexton Hands Murphy

I'm not sure what is funnier. The fact that you have Murphy, Fevola, Betts and Docherty in your team or the fact you only names 17 starting players

 

[Pykie]

As far as lines go, that HF line would have to be up there with best ever

HF: Blight, Carey, Schimmelbusch

Blight vs Jezza is debatable, I'd have Carey and Shimma ahead of Kernahan and the Dominator