Who has been the best key forward since Carey?

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Happy Mastenator

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Agreed, but as a key forward I don't rate him with the likes of the Carey, Jonathon Brown, Nic Riewoldt and Stephen Kernahan types to take big pack marks we you need in big games. His strength is his agility but the best key forwards are there to take big marks and convert. He is just not elite in that area, he is not bad but he is not in their company. I also forgot to mention Warren Tredrea in my earlier post. He was a good pack mark too and deserves to be mentioned in the conversation after the Brown and Riewoldt types since Wayne Carey era passed.
He also takes less pack marks because he's the best at getting separation from his man and doesn't need to take pack marks as a result. His results speak for themselves
 
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there are no other teams worthy
He also takes less pack marks because he's the best at getting separation from his man and doesn't need to take pack marks as a result. His results speak for themselves

You're missing the point of the greatest trait of key forwards to pluck the ball from the sky. There are times in congestion someone has to stand up and show their elite skills to take a pack mark. Not many can do it. Some guys have special skill in that area. As a result most of us rate that the most valued part of a key forwards kit bag. As long as they can convert for goal too, you got something few teams can rely on.
This is a trait many of us value highly of the really great key forwards. As tall as Franklin is, he is not the type of player. He just cannot do it to that elite level. He actually needs to "get separation from his man as if he tries to outbody and beat in the air he is no where near as competent as the elite key forwards.If you need it in your team you will need to expect if from some other key forward that can do that. I see him more akin to your Gary Buckenara and Peter Daicos type forwards. Very special in some areas but big pack marks look elsewhere like Brereton in the teams Bucky played in. Daicos was great at losing his man and so is Franklin. Most people still think of Franklin as a key forward but he really is more akin to a high half forward player of immense skill at ground level and kicking for goal. He is up there with Daicos in that area as a forward.
 
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Think Kennedy deserves a bit of recognition here. As a forward and taking into account he won the goal kicking last year and has been right up there in other years would put him ahead of J Riewoldt at least? In fact I think he deserves to be just after Tredrea in my opinion, not taking anything away from the others. Also think Fev deserves to be higher.
Kennedy finished playing for the Hawks in '59. I think list is only players after Carey. Unless you mean Joshua Kennedy from Carlton/West Coast? That's going to be a hard sell. 400 odd goals just not enough to enter the conversation. That puts him about half way to Richo.
 

gym4life

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Kennedy finished playing for the Hawks in '59. I think list is only players after Carey. Unless you mean Joshua Kennedy from Carlton/West Coast? That's going to be a hard sell. 400 odd goals just not enough to enter the conversation. That puts him about half way to Richo.
hell finish on at least 700
 
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easy to have a better finals record when you look at the teams each have played in...

Yours is a foolish argument.

Ever considered that it is largely because Buddy was on those teams that they played in so many finals?:rolleyes:

Has Reiwoldt covered by the length of the Flemington straight.
 

gym4life

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The only problem is that Buddy will very likely finish with closer to 1000.
I'm definitely not putting him forward as the best, Buddy has that locked up but if he wins a couple more colemans he would be up there.
 

Roadto2018

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Would have to be buddy just based on his freakish ability to kick goals from anywhere and thus change a game and the volume of goals he's kicked, but where I think Riewoldt (who I'd have second) makes up ground is he doesn't necessarily have to kick 4-5 to be one of the best players on the ground, in fact from memory he has something like 8 or 9 games where he's been given the 3 votes without kicking a goal, the fact he can win a match for us as a key forward without kicking a goal deserves some recognition, as well as his insane level of consistency across 15 years that would be hard to match. Hard to then split Brown, Tredrea, Richo and Lloyd, Fevola not too far away as well.
 

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Just out of curiosity - how many goals have the current top forwards kicked in their careers so far eg Buddy, Reiwoldt, Kennedy, Pavlich etc. also how many goals did Carey kick.

L.Franklin 746
W. Carey 727
M. Pavlich 680
N. Riewoldt 669
B Harvey 496
J Roughhead 491
S Johnson 473
J. Riewoldt 459
E. Betts 431
T. Cloke 429
D Petrie 413
J. Kennedy 405

I can't think of anyone else. Have I missed someone?
 
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B
L.Franklin 746
W. Carey 727
M. Pavlich 680
N. Riewoldt 669
B Harvey 496
J Roughhead 491
S Johnson 473
J. Riewoldt 459
E. Betts 431
T. Cloke 429
D Petrie 413
J. Kennedy 405

I can't think of anyone else. Have I missed someone?
I had a quick look at the Brownlow votes:

Richo 140
N.Riewoldt 130
Carey 127
Pavlich 124
Brown 112
Franklin 112
Lloyd 97
Hall 92
Tredrea 80
Fevola 47

Petrie 69
Roughhead 50
Cloke 47
Kennedy 39
J.Riewoldt 33
 
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Franklin.

Then a gap to guys like Reiwoldt, Richo, Tredrea, Pavlich and Brown.

Barry Hall definitely deserves to be right in the thick of this company.

15 seasons, 289 games, 746 goals. As good at his peak (2004-2006 - averaged 202 marks and 77 goals per season / 8.09 marks and 3.09 goals per game over those three years) as anyone in that second group, arguably even better. Not even the great King Carey can boast three consecutive years of those sort of numbers.

I think the combination of being "hidden" in Sydney during his prime, plus being a bit media shy, along with the notorious anger issues, has probably seen Hall become a bit overlooked in comparison to his contemporaries. His numbers stack up with the best of them though, and his best footy was as good as any of them too.
 
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Barry Hall definitely deserves to be right in the thick of this company.

15 seasons, 289 games, 746 goals. As good at his peak (2004-2006 - averaged 202 marks and 77 goals per season / 8.09 marks and 3.09 goals per game over those three years) as anyone in that second group, arguably even better. Not even the great King Carey can boast three consecutive years of those sort of numbers.

I think the combination of being "hidden" in Sydney during his prime, plus being a bit media shy, along with the notorious anger issues, has probably seen Hall become a bit overlooked in comparison to his contemporaries. His numbers stack up with the best of them though, and his best footy was as good as any of them too.

Yep, agreed.
 

bjgoddard18

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Barry Hall definitely deserves to be right in the thick of this company.

15 seasons, 289 games, 746 goals. As good at his peak (2004-2006 - averaged 202 marks and 77 goals per season / 8.09 marks and 3.09 goals per game over those three years) as anyone in that second group, arguably even better. Not even the great King Carey can boast three consecutive years of those sort of numbers.

I think the combination of being "hidden" in Sydney during his prime, plus being a bit media shy, along with the notorious anger issues, has probably seen Hall become a bit overlooked in comparison to his contemporaries. His numbers stack up with the best of them though, and his best footy was as good as any of them too.
From 93-96 over 4 seasons Carey averaged 7.97 marks, 18.52 disposals and 3.11 goals per game, averaging 22 games per year over this time frame. Then from 98-2000 he averaged 7.56 marks, 18.59 disposals and 3.31 goals per game, averaging 22.6 games per season over this period. In only 1 of these 7 years did he average less than 3 goals per game (1995- 2.6 goals per game).

Pavlich from 06-08 averaged 8.14 marks, 17 disposals and 3.18 goals per game. He averaged 22 games per year over this time frame.

J Brown over 5 years from 06-2010 averaged 8.55 marks, 15.8 disposals and never once averaged less than 3.3 goals, averaging 18.6 games per year.
Tredrea (2001-2005) and Riewoldt (08-10) also had dominant patches.
Hall's totals are higher because he averaged 25 games per year, which is a credit to his durability and team success and a bit of luck, but his peak doesn't stand out amongst his contemporaries.
Still a great player but would have him below all the players I've just mentioned, not by much though.
 

DearHunter

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Franklin. Then daylight.

Blokes going to end up with well over 1000 goals. A couple of flags. And could really do anything on the field.
 
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Franklin then Lloyd.

I find it difficult to split Riewoldt, Brown and Pavlich. And I guess you'd have to throw Tredrea and Hall in there too. Riewoldt's longevity perhaps gets him in front by a nose.

Richardson seems a long way off it for a guy who kicked 800 goals in a shitty team. Maybe he's not technically "since Carey", having overlapped quite a bit.
 
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