Who have been the most damaging mids since 2000 (disposals, goals + goal-assists)?

[RichLeMonde]

Some of the best players of all time were dominant mids who also hit the scoreboard.

For fun, I had a look at the stats of some great players, and added their goals and goal-assists (recorded since 2003), and also looked at their disposals.

As a rough measure of a highly damaging mid, I looked at how many players have averaged > 2.5 goals + goal-assists, and > 25 possessions, in a season. Only 3 men have done it in the modern era: GAJ, Danger, and Dusty.

Dropping the requirement down to > 25 possessions and 2 goals + goal assists brought in a few more: more seasons for GAJ, Danger and Dusty, but also appearances by Swan, Selwood, and Judd.

Moving down to > 25 and 1.5 goals + goal assists brought us more from the names already mentioned, plus seasons from Fyfe, Pendles, Stevie J, Bont, Cousins, and Buckley.

Moving down to > 25 and 1 goal + goal assist introduced Sam Mitchell, Tom Mitchell, and Lachie Neale. For these guys, I only included their best seasons in the table.

Averaging less than a goal + goal assist was Cripps. I only included his best season in the table.

Seasons > 25 and 2.5
Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Ablett	32.07	2.87
	31.5	2.46
Danger	29.92	2.71
Dusty	29.76	2.64
Seasons > 25 and 2
Ablett	33.75	2.25
	28.86	2.14
	31.19	2.14
	33.82	1.96
Dusty	26.09	2.39
	25.35	2.35
	25.45	2.05
	31.67	2.29
	34.52	2
Swan	31.67	2.29
	34.52	2
Selwood	25.9	2.1
	24.6	2
Danger	28.14	2.14
Judd	26.38	1.96
Seasons > 25 and 1.5
Ablett	33.82	1.96
Dusty	25.96	1.52
Danger	31.75	1.92
	27.08	1.84
	21.53	1.77
	26.83	1.56
Swan	29	1.76
	31.17	1.69
	30.76	1.6
	31.54	1.54
Judd	25.87	1.74
	26.48	1.65
	25.06	1.52
	26.95	1.45
Selwood	25.58	1.83
	25.67	1.52
Fyfe	26.95	1.65
	28.8	1.55
	25.1	1.53
	29.15	1.45
Pendles	29.68	1.84
	28.86	1.63
	29.91	1.61
	28.13	1.56
S Johnson	28.74	1.89
	25.78	1.61
Buckley	27.08	1.67
Cousins	25.5	1.83
Bont	26.35	1.56
Seasons > 25 and 1
S Mitchell	27.21	1.42
T Mitchell	27.05	1.32
Neale	27.24	1.24
Seasons > 25 and 0.5
Cripps	28	0.95

Goal-assists were only recorded from 2003, past the peak of Voss, Hird, Buckley and Ricciuto, but they all had a few good years that make interesting comparisons. I've included them for an interesting comparison. Only years where they averaged > 1.5 goals + goal-assists have been included.

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Buckley	20.91	2.37
	22.19	2.14
	27.08	1.67
Hird	20.38	2.23
	21.05	1.95
	22	1.5
Voss	21.13	2.08
Riciutto	23.54	1.5
	22.17	1.46

For comparison's sake, here's also some players who have averaged > 20 and > 2.5, but playing more as a forward:

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
S Johnson	22.35	3.52
	20.28	3.16
B Johnson	21.27	2.77
	22.82	2.73
	21.52	2.6
Goodes	20.04	2.71
	21.29	2.67
	21.32	2.59

And some players averaging > 15 and 3.5 G + GAs

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Buddy	15.32	5.24
Buddy	18.42	4.89
J Brown	16.05	4.77
Pav	18.21	4.58
Buddy	18.23	4.46
Riewoldt	17.21	4
S Johnson	18.64	3.95
Aker	19.88	3.52

To return to where we started - damaging mids - here are some possible conclusions:
- GAJ is the most damaging mid by far (big surprise)
- Dusty is right up there (big surprise)
- Danger has been one of the most damaging mids of all time. He gets criticised for butchering the ball, but his ability to kick goals and to hit others on the chest so that they can kick goals suggests he kicks well enough to be incredibly damaging. He's probably actually under-rated by most on BF.
- Fyfe isn't quite as damaging as we might have thought, compared to the trio above
- Judd wasn't quite as damaging as we thought, not only having no seasons with > 2.5 G + GAs, but only 1 season with > 2 G + GAs, which sits him below Dusty, Danger, and Swan.
- We probably underrate Dane Swan's career, who clearly had more damaging seasons than anyone other than the big 3.
- Selwood wasn't just a clearance and hacked kick king - he actually appears to have been about as damaging as Judd and hit the scoreboard regularly at his best.
- Pendles sits that tier below, but still a tier above guys like Mitchell, Mitchell, and Neale, whose reputations seem deserved - great players who don't impact the scoreboard directly.
- Stevie J was a gun, and had outstanding seasons both as a mid who hit the scoreboard, and as a damaging fwd who got plenty of the ball.
- From 2003 on Bucks, Hird, Voss, and Ricciuto weren't too damaging, although an outstanding season from Bucks in that time probably reflects their standard in earlier years.

What do you guys think? Does this list, and the criteria of goals + goal-assists, work well for assessing damaging mids?

 

[Choogler]

Some of the best players of all time were dominant mids who also hit the scoreboard.

For fun, I had a look at the stats of some great players, and added their goals and goal-assists (recorded since 2003), and also looked at their disposals.

As a rough measure of a highly damaging mid, I looked at how many players have averaged > 2.5 goals + goal-assists, and > 25 possessions, in a season. Only 3 men have done it in the modern era: GAJ, Danger, and Dusty.

Dropping the requirement down to > 25 possessions and 2 goals + goal assists brought in a few more: more seasons for GAJ, Danger and Dusty, but also appearances by Swan, Selwood, and Judd.

Moving down to > 25 and 1.5 goals + goal assists brought us more from the names already mentioned, plus seasons from Fyfe, Pendles, Stevie J, Bont, Cousins, and Buckley.

Moving down to > 25 and 1 goal + goal assist introduced Sam Mitchell, Tom Mitchell, and Lachie Neale. For these guys, I only included their best seasons in the table.

Averaging less than a goal + goal assist was Cripps. I only included his best season in the table.

Seasons > 25 and 2.5
Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Ablett	32.07	2.87
	31.5	2.46
Danger	29.92	2.71
Dusty	29.76	2.64
Seasons > 25 and 2
Ablett	33.75	2.25
	28.86	2.14
	31.19	2.14
	33.82	1.96
Dusty	26.09	2.39
	25.35	2.35
	25.45	2.05
	31.67	2.29
	34.52	2
Swan	31.67	2.29
	34.52	2
Selwood	25.9	2.1
	24.6	2
Danger	28.14	2.14
Judd	26.38	1.96
Seasons > 25 and 1.5
Ablett	33.82	1.96
Dusty	25.96	1.52
Danger	31.75	1.92
	27.08	1.84
	21.53	1.77
	26.83	1.56
Swan	29	1.76
	31.17	1.69
	30.76	1.6
	31.54	1.54
Judd	25.87	1.74
	26.48	1.65
	25.06	1.52
	26.95	1.45
Selwood	25.58	1.83
	25.67	1.52
Fyfe	26.95	1.65
	28.8	1.55
	25.1	1.53
	29.15	1.45
Pendles	29.68	1.84
	28.86	1.63
	29.91	1.61
	28.13	1.56
S Johnson	28.74	1.89
	25.78	1.61
Buckley	27.08	1.67
Cousins	25.5	1.83
Bont	26.35	1.56
Seasons > 25 and 1
S Mitchell	27.21	1.42
T Mitchell	27.05	1.32
Neale	27.24	1.24
Seasons > 25 and 0.5
Cripps	28	0.95

Goal-assists were only recorded from 2003, past the peak of Voss, Hird, Buckley and Ricciuto, but they all had a few good years that make interesting comparisons. I've included them for an interesting comparison. Only years where they averaged > 1.5 goals + goal-assists have been included.

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Buckley	20.91	2.37
	22.19	2.14
	27.08	1.67
Hird	20.38	2.23
	21.05	1.95
	22	1.5
Voss	21.13	2.08
Riciutto	23.54	1.5
	22.17	1.46

For comparison's sake, here's also some players who have averaged > 20 and > 2.5, but playing more as a forward:

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
S Johnson	22.35	3.52
	20.28	3.16
B Johnson	21.27	2.77
	22.82	2.73
	21.52	2.6
Goodes	20.04	2.71
	21.29	2.67
	21.32	2.59

And some players averaging > 15 and 3.5 G + GAs

Player	Disposals	Goals + goal-assists
Buddy	15.32	5.24
Buddy	18.42	4.89
J Brown	16.05	4.77
Pav	18.21	4.58
Buddy	18.23	4.46
Riewoldt	17.21	4
S Johnson	18.64	3.95
Aker	19.88	3.52

To return to where we started - damaging mids - here are some possible conclusions:
- GAJ is the most damaging mid by far (big surprise)
- Dusty is right up there (big surprise)
- Danger has been one of the most damaging mids of all time. He gets criticised for butchering the ball, but his ability to kick goals and to hit others on the chest so that they can kick goals suggests he kicks well enough to be incredibly damaging. He's probably actually under-rated by most on BF.
- Fyfe isn't quite as damaging as we might have thought, compared to the trio above
- Judd wasn't quite as damaging as we thought, not only having no seasons with > 2.5 G + GAs, but only 1 season with > 2 G + GAs, which sits him below Dusty, Danger, and Swan.
- We probably underrate Dane Swan's career, who clearly had more damaging seasons than anyone other than the big 3.
- Selwood wasn't just a clearance and hacked kick king - he actually appears to have been about as damaging as Judd and hit the scoreboard regularly at his best.
- Pendles sits that tier below, but still a tier above guys like Mitchell, Mitchell, and Neale, whose reputations seem deserved - great players who don't impact the scoreboard directly.
- Stevie J was a gun, and had outstanding seasons both as a mid who hit the scoreboard, and as a damaging fwd who got plenty of the ball.
- From 2003 on Bucks, Hird, Voss, and Ricciuto weren't too damaging, although an outstanding season from Bucks in that time probably reflects their standard in earlier years.

What do you guys think? Does this list, and the criteria of goals + goal-assists, work well for assessing damaging mids?

I think the issue with goal assists is determining what constitutes a GA. Take the situation where a great contested ball winner like S Mitchell and even a Priddis, and many others, who might win the hard contested ball, fire it out to someone who hits up the forward who goals. Who truly deserves the GA stat, the guy who kicked it to the forward, or the player that really created the opportunity? As I understand it, the kicker gets the GA while the ball winner gets the contested possession or clearance stat. can be extremely misleading.
I think you need to redo your stats an include CPs and/or clearance stats. I'm sure that will alter things a little, maybe a lot?

 

[RichLeMonde]

I think the issue with goal assists is determining what constitutes a GA. Take the situation where a great contested ball winner like S Mitchell and even a Priddis, and many others, who might win the hard contested ball, fire it out to someone who hits up the forward who goals. Who truly deserves the GA stat, the guy who kicked it to the forward, or the player that really created the opportunity? As I understand it, the kicker gets the GA while the ball winner gets the contested possession or clearance stat. can be extremely misleading.
I think you need to redo your stats an include CPs and/or clearance stats. I'm sure that will alter things a little, maybe a lot?

There is a stat, I can't remember exactly what it's called, that AFL clubs keep, where they look at chains of possession that culminate in a scoring shot. So when a player gets a clearance they keep a stat of whether it ends up in a score 3 or 4 or 5 possessions later, or whether it ends up in a turnover. In other words, not all clearances are equal. Guys like Diesel Williams and S. Mitchell no doubt would have dominated that particular stat, since they cleared the ball and also hit teammates in great spots. On the other hand, there's guys who farm the ball out and put their teammates under pressure and it leads only to a tackle and ball-up or turnover. So you're right in that there's more to being a 'damaging mid' than I've covered, but on the other hand clearance stats don't tell the story. Unfortunately the stat I'm talking about is not available to the public, only to clubs.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Obvious dusty

 

[Scratchy05]

Well, this is how I rank players since 2010(this was the year where I'd say I was at the age to have the ability to judge talent effectively)

Mid rankings (Ignoring players who I feel have yet to show their true colours (someone like the bont would be 7th IMO)
1. Dusty (no one provides more value per touch than him besides some of the real low
2. Ablett (If you factor in longevity, he is above Judd but I think Judd ha
3. Swan (I know the team I support may suggest bias but he was very close toGary Ablett, far closer than anyone would let on
4. Judd (I only can make a judgement of Carlton Judd. However, if this were a ranking based off what highlights and what people have told me, I would seriously consider putting Judd in 2nd place)
5. Fyfe
6. Danger

These are the 6 best mids I've seen and along with Franklin are the 7 best players I've seen. There is a gap of these guys on the rest.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Well, this is how I rank players since 2010(this was the year where I'd say I was at the age to have the ability to judge talent effectively)

Mid rankings (Ignoring players who I feel have yet to show their true colours (someone like the bont would be 7th IMO)
1. Dusty (no one provides more value per touch than him besides some of the real low
2. Ablett (If you factor in longevity, he is above Judd but I think Judd ha
3. Swan (I know the team I support may suggest bias but he was very close toGary Ablett, far closer than anyone would let on
4. Judd (I only can make a judgement of Carlton Judd. However, if this were a ranking based off what highlights and what people have told me, I would seriously consider putting Judd in 2nd place)
5. Fyfe
6. Danger

These are the 6 best mids I've seen and along with Franklin are the 7 best players I've seen. There is a gap of these guys on the rest.

Idk about Swannie ahead of 4/5/6

 

[Scratchy05]

Idk about Swannie ahead of 4/5/6

Yeah I think that's fair. It is pretty subjective IMO and as I alluded to, I was too young to appreciate a peak West Coast Chris Judd among many other greats like Buckley, Hird, Goodes (again, caught a late career Goodes who was a good player but not a superstar), Voss and so on but from what I've seen, I personally think that is their ranking but again, I can see arguments for all 3 below him to be ranked above, particularly Judd.

 

[Scratchy05]

Hijacking the thread but here is my top 10 since 2010

1. Dusty
2. Buddy
3. Ablett
4. Swan
5. Judd (would be 2-4 based off his west coast achievements)
6. Fyfe
7. Danger
8. Hodge
9. Pendles
10. Selwood

 

[Marcel Proust]

Voss and Cotchin went alright too

 

[Virgin Dog]

Bit of recency bias with some people's ratings here. Dusty is undoubtedly among the greatest big game players, but for damaging performances week to week, I struggle to see how anyone could rate him above peak Ablett Jr and Danger.

 

[Scratchy05]

Dusty played the best game I have any seen any player play ever in last years grand final. Dusty is more inconsistent but out of all these mids, I can't think of anyone who when their team needs them, consistently shows up with genuine impact than him. He is one of the best marks I've seen for a mid, the best mid when it comes to pushing forward and very good ball user for the difficulty of execution he attempts.

 

[Scratchy05]

AblettvDangervDusty
Disposals: 24.9 v 23.9 v 25.0
Goals: 1.25 v 1.11 v 1.12
Inside 50s: 4.54 v 4.82 v 4.81
Goal Assists: 0.76 v 0.66 v 0.74

on career averages, dusty matches them completely being of a very similar standard on a game by game basis. This is without factoring in his ability to show up most when it really matters