Who is the 2nd best player from the 2004 draft?

[Slattery_20]

I think I'm waiting for a response on one of his BS claims from two separate accounts on two different websites. Has been good for a giggle over the years but there comes a point when you really start to question why exactly you respond to these 'people'.

 

[tacopavlich]

Cloke clearly the best player there, a tier or two above the rest. second Deledio.

 

[tacopavlich]

Buddy is better than Cloke.

Buddy is the only player I would trade Cloke for.

They are different players, Cloke is your more traditional W.Carey/Tredrea/Riewoldt CHF...he uses his strength/power and endurance to work over his opponent.

Buddy is more like G.Ablett snr, just an absolute freak who can do things that no other player can.

I was just trying to point out their differences, and that Cloke is currently the best 'traditional' KPF in the game.

Think J Brown's got him covered there as well assuming he can keep his body right.

 

[slimdusty4]

Cloke
Griffen
Deledio

lol.... i almost bit then.

then i saw who you go for.

 

[Elite Master]

Easily top 3, with Cloke pulling ahead after stringing together a couple of elite seasons..

Cloke
Griffen
Deledio

 

[Igloo]

lol.... i almost bit then.

then i saw who you go for.

Because it is so hard to believe Griffen is better than Deledio?
How do you explain the North supporter above my post, who regularly trolls the Bulldogs, saying Griffen is better?

Going by this years averages for both (obviously only part of what matters, but still), Griffen beats Deledio in everything except for Deledio having 1 more touch a game, and 1 more mark.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=1486&tid2=15&pid2=1484&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

All the talk of Deledio influencing passages of play, setting up goals, etc, and Griffen comfortably beats him. Griffen is easily the more damaging of the two.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Cloke has had 1 season of 69 goals, as a go to forward. Plus 30, 22 and 40 in the 3 other most recent years.

Roughead has had 1 season of 70 goals, as a second stringer. Plus 50,53 and 40 goals in three other seasons.

Yet people are suggesting Cloke is clearly ahead of Roughead over their careers, while also dropping him below Deledio and Griffen in their estimations?

How is that a guy who's out-performed so many other 2nd forwards over his career, let alone main targets, is continuously overlooked?

 

[Gus]

lol.... i almost bit then.

then i saw who you go for.

Bite at the below then:

Easily top 3, with Cloke pulling ahead after stringing together a couple of elite seasons..

Cloke
Griffen
Deledio

Griffen is a proven finals performer and best and fairest in a top 4 team.

Deledio is a half back flanker in a perenially weak team.

 

[Spitta09]

Voted Cloke and i reckon him pretty comfortably followed by Deledio and Griffin.

 

[robertg22]

Cloke has had 1 season of 69 goals, as a go to forward. Plus 30, 22 and 40 in the 3 other most recent years.

Roughead has had 1 season of 70 goals, as a second stringer. Plus 50,53 and 40 goals in three other seasons.

Yet people are suggesting Cloke is clearly ahead of Roughead over their careers, while also dropping him below Deledio and Griffen in their estimations?

How is that a guy who's out-performed so many other 2nd forwards over his career, let alone main targets, is continuously overlooked?

If the OP was asking "Who has done the most so far?" as opposed to "Who is the 2nd best player from the 2004 draft" that may make your post more relevant, but they're two different questions.

Deciding the best player people will use the most recent form of each player and how they think each player will progress from 2012 onwards. Fact is Cloke just had a season where he was unaminously regarded as a top 10 player (which I will add something Roughead has not come close to doing) and Roughead is coming off arguably the worst injury in football.

There's a reason why Roughead has only received 5 votes so far - we all can't be wrong.

 

[Fasta_123]

Comparing clokes stats to franklins is not a great way to compare the players. Franklin is a tall hff. He's quick enough to go into the midfield. His disposal average is higher for that reason. Franklin is a finisher. Able to poach a lot too because he's so quick. His goal numbers are higher. It's very hard to compare them. Look at the pf. Franklin keeping it alive with his freakish ability. Cloke keeping it alive with his contested marking. Completely different styles

 

[robertg22]

Bite at the below then:




Griffen is a proven finals performer and best and fairest in a top 4 team.

Deledio is a half back flanker in a perenially weak team.

FWIW I agree with you on this one Gus. IMO Deledio's a bit of an underachiever overall. Should be better than Griffen but just hasn't stepped up enough career to date..

 

[Ed D]

FWIW I agree with you on this one Gus. IMO Deledio's a bit of an underachiever overall. Should be better than Griffen but just hasn't stepped up enough career to date..

Deledio would be seen as a much better player if he was playing in the midfield of a side with good players around him. No offense to Richmond but Deledio seems to be playing out of the backline mainly because Richmond lack the players. If he played for Geelong/Collingwood/West Coast for example he'd be in the midfield carving it up.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

FWIW I agree with you on this one Gus. IMO Deledio's a bit of an underachiever overall. Should be better than Griffen but just hasn't stepped up enough career to date..

Deledio is the victim of playing for a club that accepts mediocrity. If he was put into a good team with a good culture and system, he would probably be a top 10 player in the comp. Victim of circumstances.

 

[dajesmac]

Cloke > Griffen > Deledio.

 

[robertg22]

Deledio is the victim of playing for a club that accepts mediocrity. If he was put into a good team with a good culture and system, he would probably be a top 10 player in the comp. Victim of circumstances.

You could be right, but that is speculative though..

 

[theflea]

Deledio is the victim of playing for a club that accepts mediocrity. If he was put into a good team with a good culture and system, he would probably be a top 10 player in the comp. Victim of circumstances.

so if the tigers make the 8 this year or next hes in a good system/culture and at a club that doesnt except mediocrity. this is the most generalised comment ive heard. if we accepted mediocrity why would we have sacked coaches all the time? just because the team in the past has performed poorly doesnt mean necessarily they are now in a poor system/culture right at the minute. i agree that having better players around better players it looks from the outside that they are better players. deledio still has 2 b+f's and i dont buy the argument they are rated lower bc he playes in a bottom 8 team as then nick reiwoldt,scott west should hand back some of their b+f's. the fact that when their teams were near the top their output didnt change hence their status as elite players of this game.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

so if the tigers make the 8 this year or next hes in a good system/culture and at a club that doesnt except mediocrity. this is the most generalised comment ive heard. if we accepted mediocrity why would we have sacked coaches all the time? just because the team in the past has performed poorly doesnt mean necessarily they are now in a poor system/culture right at the minute

Two finals sesries in two decades or so, is a pretty clear indication that there have been major problems at the club. Most Rihcmond people would acknowledge that, and I don't think it's unfair to say that. I don't know the situation of the club now, and for all I know, they could be building a fantastic winning culture. However, until people see clear proof that that is the case, their will still be massive doubts about Richmonds culture due to the last 30 years.

A lot of players say the ultimate achievement is winning a B&F in a premiership year. If Deledio was playing in a top side, and played the kind of football that won him two B&Fs at Richmond, he wouldn't have won them in a top side. The reason being, top sides generally have the best players in the game. I can't see Deledio winning a B&F if he has blokes like Franklin, Judd, Pendlebury, Ablett, Murphy, Hodge, Swan & co to compete with, as those players all are clearly better footballers, and their best is miles ahead of what Lids has done at Richmond.

I like Deledio and think he can become an elite player. He has the ability to be a champion, but just hasn't found it yet.

 

[doppleganger]

Roughy was playing as a KPF.

First 5 games I50 target stats

Buddy 56 times
J.Riewoldt 55 times
T.Cloke 52 times
Roughy 47 times
J.Kennedy 44 times
N.Riewoldt 43 times
Dawes 45 times
Pods 46 times
Tippett 44 times

Roughy is hardly at a disadvantage or this mythical poor 'secondary target' that is ignored.

As highlighted earlier, Roughy gets the ball directed at him as much or if not more than the majority of the KPF in the game. This myth that he is under-utilised is laughable.

Cloke has had 1 season of 69 goals, as a go to forward. Plus 30, 22 and 40 in the 3 other most recent years.

Roughead has had 1 season of 70 goals, as a second stringer. Plus 50,53 and 40 goals in three other seasons.

You dont get it.

Roughy is targetted as much if not more than most forwards.

In 2010, Collingwood had 9 players kick 20+ goals
In 2010, Hawthorn had 3 players kick 20+ goals - Buddy, Roughy and Cyril

In 2009, Collingwood had 7 players kick 20+ goals
In 2009, Hawthorn had 3 players kick 20+ - Buddy, Roughy and Cyril

Collingwood kick it to Didak, Dawes, Cloke, L.Brown, Davis, Sidebottom

Hawthorn kick it to Buddy or Roughy.

Cloke didn't lead the pies goal kicking in 2010 or 2009, as he was not the main target.

Yet people are suggesting Cloke is clearly ahead of Roughead over their careers, while also dropping him below Deledio and Griffen in their estimations?

Roughy is clearly behind Cloke.

Lids is a multiple BnF winner, and a standout in a struggling team.

How is that a guy who's out-performed so many other 2nd forwards over his career, let alone main targets, is continuously overlooked?

Hawthorn only kick the ball to two players, Buddy and Roughy.

The good teams share the ball through 6 or 7 targets.

Roughy gets more ball directed to him than most KPFs.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

The good teams share the ball through 6 or 7 targets.

We're a good team. Finished third and even though we lost the prelim, we outplayed you for most of it. To say we are not a good team is a bit unfair.

 

[doppleganger]

We're a good team. Finished third and even though we lost the prelim, we outplayed you for most of it. To say we are not a good team is a bit unfair.

When Hawthorn were good, 2008, Hawthorn had 5 players kick more than 20 goals

Buddy
Roughy
Williams
Osborne
Rioli

The loss of Williams as an alternate target has hurt Hawthorn, as nobody else has stepped up.

The ball was going to Buddy or Roughy every time in 09-10, even though Echols tries to portray Roughy as some poor bloke who hardly ever gets used.

This year Hawthorn played their best footy when Roughy was moved away from the forward line.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

When Hawthorn were good, 2008, Hawthorn had 5 players kick more than 20 goals

Buddy
Roughy
Williams
Osborne
Rioli

The loss of Williams as an alternate target has hurt Hawthorn, as nobody else has stepped up.

The ball was going to Buddy or Roughy every time in 09-10, even though Echols tries to portray Roughy as some poor bloke who hardly ever gets used.

This year Hawthorn played their best footy when Roughy was moved away from the forward line.

And yet we won more games in the H&A season this year, than when we were a "good" team in 2008. We also won more games in the H&A season this year, than Collingwood did in 2010.

Cloke is the number 1 forward at Collingwood and Roughead is the number 2 target at Hawthorn. Pretty easy to understand. And fwiw, Champion data had Roughead as the 37th most effective player in the comp on averages, and Cloke 56th in the comp for 2011. Not bad for a secondary target eh?

http://supercoach.heraldsun.com.au/?p=topplayers&sort=average

You really underrate Roughead.

 

[doppleganger]

Cloke is the number 1 forward at Collingwood and Roughead is the number 2 target at Hawthorn. Pretty easy to understand.

2011 is the first year Cloke has been the leading goal kicker.

In 2007, Rocca lead the goal kicking....despite that Cloke won the BnF.
In 2008, Medhurst lead the goal kicking
In 2009, J.Anthony lead the goal kicking and 5 other players kicked more than Cloke
In 2010, Didak lead the goal kicking.

Prior to 2011, Cloke had never been the main goal kicking option at Collingwood.

It clearly is something you Hawk fans cant grasp.

And fwiw, Champion data had Roughead as the 37th most effective player in the comp on averages, and Cloke 56th in the comp for 2011. Not bad for a secondary target eh?

http://supercoach.heraldsun.com.au/?p=topplayers&sort=average

As I have stated Roughy blossomed when moved out of the KPF spot.

First 5 rds, avg was 87
When moved into ruck avg was 122

And in the first 5 rds, Roughy had the ball kicked to him in the F50 more than N.Riewoldt....hardly a secondary target.

You really underrate Roughead.

Not at all, I just realise he is a fair way behind Cloke now.

 

[theflea]

Two finals sesries in two decades or so, is a pretty clear indication that there have been major problems at the club. Most Rihcmond people would acknowledge that, and I don't think it's unfair to say that. I don't know the situation of the club now, and for all I know, they could be building a fantastic winning culture. However, until people see clear proof that that is the case, their will still be massive doubts about Richmonds culture due to the last 30 years.

A lot of players say the ultimate achievement is winning a B&F in a premiership year. If Deledio was playing in a top side, and played the kind of football that won him two B&Fs at Richmond, he wouldn't have won them in a top side. The reason being, top sides generally have the best players in the game. I can't see Deledio winning a B&F if he has blokes like Franklin, Judd, Pendlebury, Ablett, Murphy, Hodge, Swan & co to compete with, as those players all are clearly better footballers, and their best is miles ahead of what Lids has done at Richmond.

I like Deledio and think he can become an elite player. He has the ability to be a champion, but just hasn't found it yet.

1.hence why i said you generalised. before hardwick i agree but at the moment hardwick is doing it right.

2.this is just supposition and not supported by fact. he may or may not but its your opinion only.(which is fine)imo he would go to another level and be a star of the comp(more supposition!)

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

2011 is the first year Cloke has been the leading goal kicker.

Correct, yet somehow that means he's so much better than someone who's out scored him in every other season so far.

In 2007, Rocca lead the goal kicking....despite that Cloke won the BnF.
In 2008, Medhurst lead the goal kicking
In 2009, J.Anthony lead the goal kicking and 5 other players kicked more than Cloke
In 2010, Didak lead the goal kicking.

Prior to 2011, Cloke had never been the main goal kicking option at Collingwood.

So what you're saying is that although Cloke was the key forward every week in Collingwoods' forward line, he wasn't the main option?

That Malthouse was trying to funnel the ball through Medhurst, Anthony and Didak?!? Yet somehow Cloke has been better than Roughead who kicked 70 goals in his 3rd year, yet it took Cloke until his 7th year to even get close to that tally.

This may be a shock, but perhaps you are overlooking the fact that he just wasn't that great in these other years, and missing more than he kicked?

And in the first 5 rds, Roughy had the ball kicked to him in the F50 more than N.Riewoldt....hardly a secondary target.

Of course, no mention of the differences in the amount of inside 50's between the two clubs.

Are you seriously going to argue that Roughead is a secondary target to Franklin?