Who is the best team in the history of the game to not win a grand final??

[Shueygod]

Wow you beat them in Perth.
No chance you would have beaten them at the G. Everyone knows Richmond were the best team in 2018.

You barely got over Collingwood.
The 2018 eagles are one of the weaker flag teams. Much like Adelaide in 97.

We barely got over Collingwood yet Richmond got pumped by them as well as us.

Also in 2019 we were crushing them at the G in the dry before it rained, no rain on GF day so I’d assume something similar would have occurred.

Name me another GF winner missing such quality from their team? How the * can you call that lucky?

 

[And_ROOS]

St Kilda 04-05

I was certain heading into the finals that the Saints would do it in 04. Just felt like they were set to take the mantle from the Lions.

 

[Fadge]

We barely got over Collingwood yet Richmond got pumped by them as well as us.

Also in 2019 we were crushing them at the G in the dry before it rained, no rain on GF day so I’d assume something similar would have occurred.

Name me another GF winner missing such quality from their team? How the * can you call that lucky?

Yep, certainly is a strange take.

I think it shows how fortunate Richmond were to win the three flags they won, as opposed to unlucky in not winning 2018.

 

[Fadge]

I was certain heading into the finals that the Saints would do it in 04. Just felt like they were set to take the mantle from the Lions.

Really?

St. Kilda were certainly developing at that time, but were nowhere near the finished product they were in 2009/10.

I felt the best two teams played off in 2004, Port were due after topping the home and away ladder the previous two seasons but falling short, and Brisbane were Brisbane.

2005 was a bit of a raffle, with Adelaide unluckier to miss out on the Grand Final than St. Kilda.

 

[PAFC_FOREVER]

St Kilda definitely deserved one recently.

As for the VFL era in sixteen dickidy doo crap, no one cares.

 

[Fadge]

St Kilda definitely deserved one recently.

As for the VFL era crap in sixteen dickidy doo crap, no one cares.

Agree on both counts.

The only supporters who seem to care about 16 are Carlton supporters, in an effort to deflect from their recent mediocrity.

I don't recall many if any Essendon supporters deferring to 16.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

IMO Collingwood 2002 - 2004 were a pretty average team who overachieved.

They got close in a grand final against one of the greatest teams ever in Brisbane is that what you call overated

 

[Captain_Bender]

You’re delusional, eagles beat Richmond by 50 points earlier that same season.

Eagles won the same amount of games as Richmond in the end with less losses.

How can you call a gf side missing 3 all Australians lucky? When has that been done before?

Richmond went 19-5, West Coast 19-6

 

[Fadge]

They got close in a grand final against one of the greatest teams ever in Brisbane is that what you call overated

And started favourite in the other after having beaten them in that year's Qualifying Final.

 

[Captain_Bender]

We barely got over Collingwood yet Richmond got pumped by them as well as us.

Also in 2019 we were crushing them at the G in the dry before it rained, no rain on GF day so I’d assume something similar would have occurred.

Name me another GF winner missing such quality from their team? How the * can you call that lucky?

In the years before and after 2018 West Coast didn't finish in the top 4 a very lucky premiership for a side that had one good year

 

[Back One Out]

1991 West Coast - Three games clear on top at the end of the regular season and they get stage fright on the big day.

West Coast didn't get "stage fright" in the 1991 Grand Final. They had 4 goals on the board before the Hawks had even had a shot at goal.
When Sumich roosted his 3rd goal from 60 metres with a minute left in the 1st quarter, the Eagles led Hawthorn 5.1 (31) to 1.4 (10)

Hawthorn got on top in the 2nd quarter thanks to Paul Dear (RIP) playing one of the great Grand Final quarters.
Thanks to his aerial dominance, the Hawks went into half time with a 10 point lead.

But the Eagles kept coming... It was actually a fantastic 3rd quarter with both sides scoring 5 goals apiece.
Every time the Hawks went out to a 3 goal lead, the Eagles immediately replied and cut the margin to 2 goals.


"They're going goal for goal! What a Grand Final!"
- Denis Cometti after Don Pyke narrowed the margin to 10 points on the 3/4 time siren.


The floodgates opened in the first 3 minutes of the last quarter when Brereton outmarked Worsfold twice in the goal square. Goals to Paul Hudson and Darrin Pritchard, followed by 3 goals in the space of 4 minutes to Jason Dunstall and the rout was on.

Everyone was bored with Hawthorn winning another premiership (their 5th in 9 seasons). People dismissed the game from their memory... but it was actually a pretty good contest. Very physical, great skills, great goals, and an emphatic 8 goal last quarter blitz from the Hawks with a colosseum-like atmosphere from the baying Victorian anti-Eagles crowd.


1991 Grand Final (Waverley)
Hawthorn... 3.4... 7.12.. 12.15... 20.19
West Coast. 5.1... 7.2.... 12.5..... 13.8


1991 Qualifying Final (Subiaco)
West Coast. 6.3... 7.4... 11.9.... 15.11
Hawthorn... 5.4... 8.9... 12.12... 18.16


Further to the myth about Eagles "stagefright", the Hawks beat West Coast in similar fashion over in Perth just 3 weeks prior. Grand Final heroes Paul Dear and Stephen Lawrence played starring roles in that game too.

Don't forget: the Eagles enjoyed 2 great wins at Waverley in lead up finals vs Melbourne & Geelong. It wasn't as though they'd been playing in front of tiny crowds (like GWS) and were then suddenly faced with a massive 100,000 crowd at the MCG


If you break the 1991 season down into two halves, it's pretty clear the Eagles were the dominant team in the first half of the season, while the Hawks were clearly the best team in the second half of the season.


West Coast... 12 wins, 0 losses... 195%... (Rounds 1-13)
Hawthorn...... 6 wins, 5 losses... 115%... (Rounds 1-12)

Hawthorn...... 13 wins, 1 loss..... 155%... (after Rd 12)
West Coast..... 9 wins, 5 losses... 118%... (after Rd 13)

 

[And_ROOS]

Really?

St. Kilda were certainly developing at that time, but were nowhere near the finished product they were in 2009/10.

I felt the best two teams played off in 2004, Port were due after topping the home and away ladder the previous two seasons but falling short, and Brisbane were Brisbane.

2005 was a bit of a raffle, with Adelaide unluckier to miss out on the Grand Final than St. Kilda.

Just felt like during the season you guys would mature and be ripe come finals, especially with Gehrig, Hamill and Aussie Jones form. If you hadn't lost momentum in the PF I feel you guys kick on, end up 5 goals up and Port fail to come back. And then on GF day Lions were ripe for the picking with their injuries and age.

 

[raskolnikov]

They got close in a grand final against one of the greatest teams ever in Brisbane is that what you call overated

They got close because of wet weather and a Herculean effort by Buckley. They got demolished the following year.

 

[Blues177]

Geelong of 89 to 95

I would extend that timeframe to include 1997 when Geelong won 8 of their last 10 h&a games, finished 2nd and missed top spot by percentage.
The cats were unlucky as they had a tough finals schedule and bombed out in straight sets. In the qualifying final they lost to North Melbourne who had a bit of a down season but were dangerous with their finals experience. Then the cats had to play the crows in Adelaide in the semi final despite the cats finishing higher on the ladder.

 

[Captain_Bender]

I would extend that timeframe to include 1997 when Geelong won 8 of their last 10 h&a games, finished 2nd and missed top spot by percentage.
The cats were unlucky as they had a tough finals schedule and bombed out in straight sets. In the qualifying final they lost to North Melbourne who had a bit of a down season but were dangerous with their finals experience. Then the cats had to play the crows in Adelaide in the semi final despite the cats finishing higher on the ladder.

I'm pretty sure that under the finals series of the time the side that won in week 1 hosted the home final in week 2

 

[btdg]

Essendon had Geelongs measure in 93. The only reason they were 'unlucky' to miss the finals was because they got very lucky when we played them in r.21. Hird, Misiti and Fletcher that you mentioned missing the first final all got injured during the game against Geelong along with Wallis and Thompson. All 5 of those players missed the first final after having a bye in r.22. At Geelong that day we were 3 goals up before the injuries took their toll. Essendon don't cop those injuries it's a fair chance we win that game and no one would consider Geelong unlucky in 93.

I think Essendon supporters remember that '93 team so differently to everyone else. Essendon fans seem to remember this unstoppable juggernaut that beat all comers. My wife is an Essendon supporter and is the same about it, but it isn't how I remember the year at all. I remember most being genuinely suprised by the 'Baby Bombers' who were 12-10 the year before, and 11-11 the year after - the outlier was '93.

In my memory, it was an absolute mess of a season with a stupid fixture (only 20 matches rather than 22) and a host of outliers. West Coast, North, Carlton and Geelong were probably the best 4 teams but all dropped games to mid-table teams that cost ladder position. In the end, Essendon Bradbury'ed their way to top spot after:

• North (who should have wrapped up top) lost to 10th placed, out of finals contention, Bulldogs in round 22
• Carlton somehow managed to only beat a 1-win Sydney team, at home, by 1 point (40-odd points would have been enough to leapfrog the Bombers, who had a bye).
• West Coast lost their last TWO matches - away to the Bulldogs (again, already out of finals contention) and then at home to Geelong
• Geelong steamrolled 4 of the top 6 teams in the last 4 rounds, but missed the finals on percentage to mediocre (12-8) Adelaide and Hawthorn

Essendon that year split their games against West Coast and Geelong (including the match where Ablett kicked 14 and lost), lost their only match-up with North, and went 1-1-1 with Carlton (including the Kernahan OOB game). The were fine, but felt to me a bit like Collingwood last year - a bit fluky, and a fun run that would inevitably tail out.

Carlton then beat Essendon in the first week of finals, and that felt like that... yes, Essendon were missing some players but at the time 18yo Fletcher, 20yo Hird and 18yo Misiti was hardly the end of the road. To be honest, those injuries felt the natural endpoint for a team who were winning with a team skewed to old and young players (ie: 28+ and <22, not many in the 24-27 age bracket). That was reinforced a couple of weeks later when Adelaide were 6 goals up in the Prelim final and felt home (until the infamous half-time fart incident).

Full credit to Essendon - they took their chance and won a flag 'early' with a great group of young players, but I still think Geelong were the best that year, as their last month or so showed. And as per this thread, that was their best chance of winning IMO (because the other teams they lost to were a LOT better in each premiership year than the Bombers in '93).

 

[Blues177]

Collingwood 1966_1970 specifically 1970. Best team in it by several goals.
Had been building beautifully over the previous five or six seasons. Ready to go and dominated the blues in the first half, famously leading by 44 at the break.
Injuries to Tuddenham and McKenna, made a difference but credit to Carlton they won on the day. FOr what it’s worth - nothing- Collingwood beat Carlton 12 goals to 2 in the H& A season in 1970 and by 99 points in 1971.
I am clearly biassed, but I have always regarded the Collingwood 1970 team as the best team to not win a premiership.
This game was significant in other ways too. If Collingwood continue with their first half dominance, Len Thomson might even have been selected in the TOC. He and Big Nick had a swag of outstanding clashes. There was never more that a cigarette paper between them.

Tuddenham in the past has blamed a lack of fitness for the pies GF loss in 1970 and there was an interesting interview in the paper today between Tuddenham and Jon Anderson.
Tuddenham mentioned that pre 1970 he supported Frank Galbally to win the presidency instead of Tom Sherrin.
Galbally lost by 5 votes. Tuddy mentioned that he would have been appointed captain-coach if Galbally won and he would have appointed 2 blokes (Joe Toleman & Stan Nicholls) to improve the fitness of the players.

 

[Shueygod]

In the years before and after 2018 West Coast didn't finish in the top 4 a very lucky premiership for a side that had one good year

West Coast were decimated by injuries ever since, our two best mids have barely played. How do you think Richmond are faring without dusty and Prestia?

Count your blessings 2018 was our only decent run with injury.

 

[Captain_Bender]

West Coast were decimated by injuries ever since, our two best mids have barely played. How do you think Richmond are faring without dusty and Prestia?

Count your blessings 2018 was our only decent run with injury.

Richmond had heavier injuries in 2019 and 2020 yet won back to back flags, West Coast 2018 very ordinary side

 

[Jonts]

Giants over Suns over University for mine

 

[Shueygod]

Richmond had heavier injuries in 2019 and 2020 yet won back to back flags, West Coast 2018 very ordinary side

Don’t kid yourself, your injuries haven’t been close to that of the eagles.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Don’t kid yourself, your injuries haven’t been close to that of the eagles.

In 2019 Richmond lost the best defender in the league for basically the entire season, the reigning Coleman medalist for half the season, our number one Ruckman for half the season and captain and second best mid for half the season, would take West Coast's injuries over any of them

 

[Shueygod]

In 2019 Richmond lost the best defender in the league for basically the entire season, the reigning Coleman medalist for half the season, our number one Ruckman for half the season and captain and second best mid for half the season, would take West Coast's injuries over any of them

That’s been practically every year since 2018 for us, except you can add in our number one mid on top of that.

Richmond extremely lucky West Coast didn’t have a clean run as when both sides were fit, West Coast destroyed them.

 

[Oliver09]

I think Essendon supporters remember that '93 team so differently to everyone else. Essendon fans seem to remember this unstoppable juggernaut that beat all comers. My wife is an Essendon supporter and is the same about it, but it isn't how I remember the year at all. I remember most being genuinely suprised by the 'Baby Bombers' who were 12-10 the year before, and 11-11 the year after - the outlier was '93.

In my memory, it was an absolute mess of a season with a stupid fixture (only 20 matches rather than 22) and a host of outliers. West Coast, North, Carlton and Geelong were probably the best 4 teams but all dropped games to mid-table teams that cost ladder position. In the end, Essendon Bradbury'ed their way to top spot after:

• North (who should have wrapped up top) lost to 10th placed, out of finals contention, Bulldogs in round 22
• Carlton somehow managed to only beat a 1-win Sydney team, at home, by 1 point (40-odd points would have been enough to leapfrog the Bombers, who had a bye).
• West Coast lost their last TWO matches - away to the Bulldogs (again, already out of finals contention) and then at home to Geelong
• Geelong steamrolled 4 of the top 6 teams in the last 4 rounds, but missed the finals on percentage to mediocre (12-8) Adelaide and Hawthorn

Essendon that year split their games against West Coast and Geelong (including the match where Ablett kicked 14 and lost), lost their only match-up with North, and went 1-1-1 with Carlton (including the Kernahan OOB game). The were fine, but felt to me a bit like Collingwood last year - a bit fluky, and a fun run that would inevitably tail out.

Carlton then beat Essendon in the first week of finals, and that felt like that... yes, Essendon were missing some players but at the time 18yo Fletcher, 20yo Hird and 18yo Misiti was hardly the end of the road. To be honest, those injuries felt the natural endpoint for a team who were winning with a team skewed to old and young players (ie: 28+ and <22, not many in the 24-27 age bracket). That was reinforced a couple of weeks later when Adelaide were 6 goals up in the Prelim final and felt home (until the infamous half-time fart incident).

Full credit to Essendon - they took their chance and won a flag 'early' with a great group of young players, but I still think Geelong were the best that year, as their last month or so showed. And as per this thread, that was their best chance of winning IMO (because the other teams they lost to were a LOT better in each premiership year than the Bombers in '93).

We weren't an unstoppable juggernaut but we were the best team of the year. We had a slow start to the season, 1-1-3 after 5 rounds so to finish on top was a great effort from that position. Our last month or so was as good if not better than Geelongs until we met them at their home ground and got a rotten run of injuries on the day which also affected our finals campaign.

Essendon also dropped games they thought should've won but that's most top end teams in just about every season.

As for 92 we made finals every year from 81-91 bar 87-88 so an off year isn't the end of the world. T Daniher and Madden were at the end of the road and played a lot of reserves footy along with Ezard and A Daniher and it was a bit of a reset season with a lot of young blokes being blooded. Worked well for 93. As for 94 the injuries just piled up. It started with Long doing his knee in Perth in a practice game. It just wasn't to be. Still managed to beat Carlton in the last round who were premiership favourites at that point but went out in straight sets.

 

[Captain_Bender]

That’s been practically every year since 2018 for us, except you can add in our number one mid on top of that.

Richmond extremely lucky West Coast didn’t have a clean run as when both sides were fit, West Coast destroyed them.

Richmond went 3-1 against West Coast between 2017-2020, in 2019 Richmond were missing Cotchin, Nankervis and Rance, in 2020 were missing Astbury, Broad, Prestia, Edward's and lost Grimes early in the game