Who is the best team in the history of the game to not win a grand final??

[Captain_Bender]

Except in ALL of Richmond's flag years they actually left their run to the top 4 very late, relying on themselves to continue to win games, and other teams to lose games.

2017 - were 7 and 5 before winning 8 of their last 10 to finish 3rd, one win but 11% and 8% behind 5th and 6th respectively.
2019 - were 7 and 6 before winning their last 9 games to finish 3rd, one win and 1.2% ahead of 5th.
2020 - were 6.5 and 4.5 before winning their last 6 games to finish 3rd, half a win ahead of 5th.

This is where luck, or more pertinently 'probability' comes into it...

So, you were saying?!?

Dude face it you are insecure and jealous of Richmond

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawks to win 2026-2027, so that Sam Mitchell has 7 straight years of Premiership reunions to attend every decade.

 

[Macca180]

Saints should of won one those years they made it
Cats when Hawks upset them

 

[Rich01]

Except in ALL of Richmond's flag years they actually left their run to the top 4 very late, relying on themselves to continue to win games, and other teams to lose games.

2017 - were 7 and 5 before winning 8 of their last 10 to finish 3rd, one win but 11% and 8% behind 5th and 6th respectively.
2019 - were 7 and 6 before winning their last 9 games to finish 3rd, one win and 1.2% ahead of 5th.
2020 - were 6.5 and 4.5 before winning their last 6 games to finish 3rd, half a win ahead of 5th.

This is where luck, or more pertinently 'probability' comes into it...

So, you were saying?!?

You’ve spent the good part of this summer arguing down Richmond’s premiership achievements and Dustin Martins standing in the game.

And I thought I was obsessed about Richmond.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Saints 09

 

[Captain_Bender]

You’ve spent the good part of this summer arguing down Richmond’s premiership achievements and Dustin Martins standing in the game.

And I thought I was obsessed about Richmond.

Envy, it wears black and white

 

[The Jack]

Saints 2009

Lost 2 games for the season. One by 2 points, one by 5 points, a week apart. Pretty sure we had a kick after the siren to win both games. Definitely Reiwoldt against Essendon and I think him again the very next week against North. That one may have just been prior to the siren.
Knocked over the reigning premier away with ease with a record number of players either injured or rested in round 19.

We all know how close the GF was and could have gone either way. Saints kick straight they win.

Probably the most dominant season ever by a non GF winning side. 3 losses, including the GF, by a total of 19 points. 6 of them coming after the final siren in the GF.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Surprised the Brisbane Lions 2004 team hasn't gotten a mention, since that side was almost the best of all time. If they didn't have injuries, they would have had a 4-peat, but their forward line on GF day was shot. Lynch got injured in round 22, played cooked, and Brown was playing injured, too. Between those 2 being their best forwards, they only scored 1 behind.

 

[MisterMarcus]

They did win one flag, but in hindsight it's absolutely astounding that Essendon post-2000 didn't go on to be a massive dynasty.

They were NOT an old list....they had about 4 blokes over 30 (just), and all of their other key players were still early/mid 20s.

If it was the last gasp of an ageing team a la Hawthorn 1991 or Carlton 1995, then fair enough. But they should have been entering their prime and setting up for at least another 5 years of contention, with another 2-3 flags.

 

[Conan Troutman]

Geelong 2008. They had arguably the best Home & Away season of all-time. Only two teams have ever achieved a 21-1 win/loss ratio - Bombers 2000 and Geelong 2008, but Gelong had the higher percentage with 161.8% vs Bombers 159.1%.

The reason I say arguable, is because Collingwood went 18-0 in 1929, with a higher winning ratio, but Geelong/Bombers hold the record for most wins. Essendon and Collingwood both won their GFs.

AFL Tables - Season Records

 

[Kings of Lygon]

I reckon any "reunions" and catch ups that the St. Kilda squad have throughout the late 2000s would feel extremely hollow and disappointing.

They just couldn't get it done.

I also think the Essendon team around 2000 would feel the same, big missed opportunities on either side of that flag but at least some of them have a medal.

 

[Acinath]

Except in ALL of Richmond's flag years they actually left their run to the top 4 very late, relying on themselves to continue to win games, and other teams to lose games.

2017 - were 7 and 5 before winning 8 of their last 10 to finish 3rd, one win but 11% and 8% behind 5th and 6th respectively.
2019 - were 7 and 6 before winning their last 9 games to finish 3rd, one win and 1.2% ahead of 5th.
2020 - were 6.5 and 4.5 before winning their last 6 games to finish 3rd, half a win ahead of 5th.

This is where luck, or more pertinently 'probability' comes into it...

So, you were saying?!?

Come on Fadge

2017 - At the point we were 7-5, we had been flogged by Adelaide but 4 out of 5 loses were by less than 10 points (3 of them less than a goal in consecutive weeks). We were in 6th position on percentage alone, as we shared the same amount of wins as 4-7. Only 1 win off 3rd, and 2 off the top 2 teams. Of the teams we shared wins with at this stage, we beat 2 of them over the next few weeks to move above them.
2019 - Sat ninth at the bye, but went undefeated after that point with an average winning margin of 40 points (quite clearly the best team). Of the 8 teams above us at this stage, we beat 5 of them over the remaining 9 rounds
2020 - Were 6th in round 12, 6 games left in a short season. Only 1 win off 3rd position at this stage.

Would hardly say any of them are late runs at the top 4, and relying on other teams to lose games is a massive stretch as well

 

[Danw0w]

Except in ALL of Richmond's flag years they actually left their run to the top 4 very late, relying on themselves to continue to win games, and other teams to lose games.

2017 - were 7 and 5 before winning 8 of their last 10 to finish 3rd, one win but 11% and 8% behind 5th and 6th respectively.
2019 - were 7 and 6 before winning their last 9 games to finish 3rd, one win and 1.2% ahead of 5th.
2020 - were 6.5 and 4.5 before winning their last 6 games to finish 3rd, half a win ahead of 5th.

This is where luck, or more pertinently 'probability' comes into it...

So, you were saying?!?

Consider that we mostly had games wrapped up at half time or 3qt and then put the queue in rack all the time, kinda like Collingwood vs North last week. We had a lot of wins in the 20-40 point range, but they were all very comfortable wins.

I believe it was a deliberate tactic by Hardwick to keep the players fit for September.

 

[BACCS]

Gold Coast 2013, Dixon in his prime

 

[Danw0w]

I think we can all agree that 08-10 Saints are the clear winners here.

A contender for runners up would be the 16-19 Giants imo. I know their 2019 runners up side was one of the weakest records for a runners up side, but does anyone remember the talk surrounding them heading into the 2017 season? With the picks and talent on their list, it is a damn miracle that they never ended up winning a flag. And that's including all of their departures during that era.

 

[PizzaPie]

Era:
St Kilda 2004-2011.

Season:
St Kilda 2009 and Collingwood 2011, both finished on top with 20 wins / 2 losses (and a massive 155% / 167% respectively). Both lost the GF to Geelong. On paper, the Geelong of 2011 was closer to Collingwood than the 2009 team was to St Kilda (19/3 and 157% vs. 18/4 and 127% in the H&A season).
St Kilda also beat Geelong during the 2009 season, while Collingwood lost both 2011 H&A games to them. So St Kilda was probably more clearly the best team vs. the field in 2009, and they got a lot closer in the GF.
Collingwood's 2011 % was superior to St Kilda's 2009 %.
I can't call it, but probably lean toward St Kilda. I'm not sure fans of either side would be particularly keen to claim the title anyways!

*Edit, if using total win/loss and % for H&A and finals:
Collingwood 2011: 22-3 (157.5%)
St Kilda 2009: 22-3 (150.7%)

 

[The Dougster]

The Saints in Ross Lyon’s first stint. Gave us a few hidings. Very stiff not to get a flag out of that group

 

[SaintSteele9]

Pretty insane how good a few sides were at the same time on reflection.

2008 Cats
2009 Saints
2011 Pies

Brilliant seasons undone on the last day.

Geelong in early 90’s is the era selection for me though. Cursed

 

[citizen-erased]

Discounting teams like geel 08 and ess 99 who had wins in following years or thereabouts

Dogs 97 team - grant (brownlow but not year), darcy, wynd, johnson, west, smith, Libba snr, brown.

Pies 02/03 era - talent on every line. Like the 01 bombers, just unlucky to run into the toughest side ive ever seen in the comp

Saints 09 - roo, BJ, lenny, nicky dal, milne, gardiner, joey, ball, king, kozi.

Freo '13.

 

[kane249]

They did win one flag, but in hindsight it's absolutely astounding that Essendon post-2000 didn't go on to be a massive dynasty.

They were NOT an old list....they had about 4 blokes over 30 (just), and all of their other key players were still early/mid 20s.

If it was the last gasp of an ageing team a la Hawthorn 1991 or Carlton 1995, then fair enough. But they should have been entering their prime and setting up for at least another 5 years of contention, with another 2-3 flags.

Salary cap mismanagement scuttled their list end of 2002

They had to ditch Caracella, Heffernan, Blumfield and Moorcroft in the one off season.

They lost Hardwick the year before

All were in their flag side.

 

[Engimal v3]

Obviously this is mentioned every other post, but the Saint with Riewoldt, Hayes, Montagna, Dal Santo, Milne, etc.

 

[mr bagcroft]

St.Kilda 2009/2010.
Of course.

 

[sobrave]

Surprised the Brisbane Lions 2004 team hasn't gotten a mention, since that side was almost the best of all time. If they didn't have injuries, they would have had a 4-peat, but their forward line on GF day was shot. Lynch got injured in round 22, played cooked, and Brown was playing injured, too. Between those 2 being their best forwards, they only scored 1 behind.

rubbish, we just matched up well against them and had pretty close contests all through that period. we were that much better side on the day and finished a game clear on top of the ladder that year. the previous year we also finished top, 3 wins clear.

brisbane were a great side but we underachieved as well during that period, bombing out in finals.

its disingenous to go back and say they were better in 2004. they were getting old and cooked by that point. it was probably our last crack too.

also, the thread is about teams that never won a grand final. they won 3. if we hadn't won in 2004, we'd be a good nom.

from 2001-2004 we outperformed them in the regular season and finished top 3 times in a row.
Brisbane went 64-1-23
Port went 68-19

Also, for the "best team ever", we went 4 wins 6 losses against them over that period, with 4 of the games decided by 10 points or less. it was a great rivalry. they obviously got the chocolates and went to another level in finals, but your version of history is an entirely false narrative.

2004 GF Port Adelaide 4.5 6.6 12.8 17.11 (113) dftd Brisbane Lions 2.2 6.7 9.9 10.13 (73) Melbourne Cricket Ground Sep 25 (Sat 2:30pm)
2004 R11 Brisbane Lions 6.2 9.7 14.11 18.15 (123) dftd Port Adelaide 2.7 6.8 8.13 12.14 (86) Gabba Jun 5 (Sat 7:10pm)
2003 R17 Brisbane Lions 3.5 7.8 9.11 15.13 (103) lost to Port Adelaide 3.4 7.7 10.10 15.14 (104) Gabba Jul 26 (Sat 7:10pm)
2003 R2 Port Adelaide 3.4 6.5 7.11 10.16 (76) lost to Brisbane Lions 1.4 8.5 11.7 13.8 (86) AAMI Stadium Apr 5 (Sat 7:40pm)
2002 PF Brisbane Lions 4.3 10.7 16.10 21.12 (138) dftd Port Adelaide 4.2 7.5 11.8 12.10 (82) Gabba Sep 21 (Sat 7:10pm)
2002 R22 Port Adelaide 1.2 5.4 12.9 13.12 (90) dftd Brisbane Lions 1.2 7.2 8.5 13.6 (84) AAMI Stadium Aug 31 (Sat 2:40pm)
2002 R7 Brisbane Lions 5.3 12.5 13.10 19.15 (129) dftd Port Adelaide 2.1 7.2 9.6 11.6 (72) Gabba May 12 (Sun 1:10pm)
2001 QF Brisbane Lions 1.6 3.9 8.14 12.16 (88) dftd Port Adelaide 2.0 7.1 8.3 8.8 (56) Gabba Sep 8 (Sat 7:40pm)
2001 R16 Brisbane Lions 4.4 10.7 12.12 13.16 (94) dftd Port Adelaide 2.4 2.8 6.10 8.12 (60) Gabba Jul 21 (Sat)
2001 R1 Port Adelaide 0.3 3.7 13.12 14.15 (99) dftd Brisbane Lions 3.3 7.5 11.5 14.9 (93) Football Park Mar 31 (Sat)

so your post is utterly garbage and you should apologise for it.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

rubbish, we just matched up well against them and had pretty close contests all through that period. we were that much better side on the day and finished a game clear on top of the ladder that year. the previous year we also finished top, 3 wins clear.

brisbane were a great side but we underachieved as well during that period, bombing out in finals.

its disingenous to go back and say they were better in 2004. they were getting old and cooked by that point. it was probably our last crack too.

also, the thread is about teams that never won a grand final. they won 3. if we hadn't won in 2004, we'd be a good nom.

from 2001-2004 we outperformed them in the regular season and finished top 3 times in a row.
Brisbane went 64-1-23
Port went 68-19

Also, for the "best team ever", we went 4 wins 6 losses against them over that period, with 4 of the games decided by 10 points or less. it was a great rivalry. they obviously got the chocolates and went to another level in finals, but your version of history is an entirely false narrative.

2004 GF Port Adelaide 4.5 6.6 12.8 17.11 (113) dftd Brisbane Lions 2.2 6.7 9.9 10.13 (73) Melbourne Cricket Ground Sep 25 (Sat 2:30pm)
2004 R11 Brisbane Lions 6.2 9.7 14.11 18.15 (123) dftd Port Adelaide 2.7 6.8 8.13 12.14 (86) Gabba Jun 5 (Sat 7:10pm)
2003 R17 Brisbane Lions 3.5 7.8 9.11 15.13 (103) lost to Port Adelaide 3.4 7.7 10.10 15.14 (104) Gabba Jul 26 (Sat 7:10pm)
2003 R2 Port Adelaide 3.4 6.5 7.11 10.16 (76) lost to Brisbane Lions 1.4 8.5 11.7 13.8 (86) AAMI Stadium Apr 5 (Sat 7:40pm)
2002 PF Brisbane Lions 4.3 10.7 16.10 21.12 (138) dftd Port Adelaide 4.2 7.5 11.8 12.10 (82) Gabba Sep 21 (Sat 7:10pm)
2002 R22 Port Adelaide 1.2 5.4 12.9 13.12 (90) dftd Brisbane Lions 1.2 7.2 8.5 13.6 (84) AAMI Stadium Aug 31 (Sat 2:40pm)
2002 R7 Brisbane Lions 5.3 12.5 13.10 19.15 (129) dftd Port Adelaide 2.1 7.2 9.6 11.6 (72) Gabba May 12 (Sun 1:10pm)
2001 QF Brisbane Lions 1.6 3.9 8.14 12.16 (88) dftd Port Adelaide 2.0 7.1 8.3 8.8 (56) Gabba Sep 8 (Sat 7:40pm)
2001 R16 Brisbane Lions 4.4 10.7 12.12 13.16 (94) dftd Port Adelaide 2.4 2.8 6.10 8.12 (60) Gabba Jul 21 (Sat)
2001 R1 Port Adelaide 0.3 3.7 13.12 14.15 (99) dftd Brisbane Lions 3.3 7.5 11.5 14.9 (93) Football Park Mar 31 (Sat)

so your post is utterly garbage and you should apologise for it.

Brisbane always defeated Port by larger margins according to your own post. Port struggled to defeat Brisbane, even when they did win. Port never defeated Brisbane by over 1 goal during that period except for the 04 Grand Final when Brisbane was cooked with injuries. Lynch did his hamstring, and was injured in round 22, and Chad Cornes knew Brown was cooked when he hit his leg to test him out. Both only scored 1 point. They were also missing Shaun Hart (Norm Smith Medallist) who was injured in the preliminary final. St Kilda I think could have beaten Brisbane that day, too, Based on the "short term circumstance, within that month" The Lions messed up their injury management at the wrong time.

Brisbane obviously won more finals during that, time, too. Port only won 5 finals games, to Brisbane's 11 finals games. Overall from 2001-2004, it was actually Brisbane 75 wins and 1 draw to Port's 74 wins, which means Brisbane won more overall games than your biased tally.

But hey, I'm very non-bias, I think Port should have at least won the 2014 premiership had they kicked accurately in their preliminary final against Hawthorn.

And the thread is about the best team not to win a Grand Final in a given year, not excluding them if they won a premiership in previous seasons, have you not read the thread? 2008 Geelong is mentioned as being the best team not to win a premiership, and they defeated your mob by 20 goals the previous season to win the premiership.

 

[Rich01]

Obviously this is mentioned every other post, but the Saint with Riewoldt, Hayes, Montagna, Dal Santo, Milne, etc.

Yep. Had some battlers at the bottom end.