Who is the true goat in Tennis ?

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Aristotle Pickett

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How is Ablett or Carey considered GOAT ahead of Lockett?
Peak Federer, the only player that would come close is Nadal.
The Djoker is the superior athlete and has no weakness and will probably win 5 more slams than Federer who should have retired 3 years ago.
To lose a set 6-0 was embarrassing for Federer.
 

Number37

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The Djoker is the superior athlete and has no weakness and will probably win 5 more slams than Federer who should have retired 3 years ago.
To lose a set 6-0 was embarrassing for Federer.
It is telling that the people who say Novak is the GOAT almost always do so by taking cheap shots at Federer or Nadal.
Interesting that a man you say should have retired 3 years ago won a slam in that time. Past it but still winning slams, how good is he!

Novak could win 5 more slams and I would still be of the view that Federer is the GOAT.
 

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Aristotle Pickett

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It is telling that the people who say Novak is the GOAT almost always do so by taking cheap shots at Federer or Nadal.
Interesting that a man you say should have retired 3 years ago won a slam in that time. Past it but still winning slams, how good is he!

Novak could win 5 more slams and I would still be of the view that Federer is the GOAT.
He won his last slam 3 and a half years ago.
The reason Federer cops cheap shots is because of his over-zealous supporters who bag the Djoker.
Federer has been operated because of his athletically pleasing game style.
People were saying he was the greatest sportsman of all time 3 years ago and now he's not even the greatest tennis player because Novak has gone to an elite level that no one was expecting.
 

Number37

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He won his last slam 3 and a half years ago.
The reason Federer cops cheap shots is because of his over-zealous supporters who bag the Djoker.
Federer has been operated because of his athletically pleasing game style.
People were saying he was the greatest sportsman of all time 3 years ago and now he's not even the greatest tennis player because Novak has gone to an elite level that no one was expecting.
Novak fans ...20>>>>>>20.

:rolleyes:

Just because Federer is popular and Novak isn't as popular isn't the end of the world.
What Novak should do to get more popular is win a Slam after tearing a muscle in r2. What he should do is not tell anyone that he tore a muscle, only that he may or may not be injured and that that maybe injury may or may not see him able to finish the tournament.
 

Aristotle Pickett

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Novak fans ...20>>>>>>20.

:rolleyes:

Just because Federer is popular and Novak isn't as popular isn't the end of the world.
What Novak should do to get more popular is win a Slam after tearing a muscle in r2. What he should do is not tell anyone that he tore a muscle, only that he may or may not be injured and that that maybe injury may or may not see him able to finish the tournament.
I'm not debating personalities just playing ability.
 

bullish23

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So yours is not an opinion, it is based on the scientific measurement of GOAT.

Glad we got that sorted.
Leads h2h against his main rivals
Same number of slams as the other two
Won every major at least twice. Can extend that to 3 if he wins FO next year
Holds record for most wins at one major
Beaten Nadal twice at RG and won the title twice with Nadal in the main draw
Holds #1 longer than anyone else
Held all 4 majors at the same time

So by may calc fed meets only 2 of that criteria. But yes granted Novak never showed up to SW19 wearing an initialled blazer, a Rolex and long pants, so loses on the grace and style point I kept reading that is important to consider all of a sudden.

Over to you…
 

Number37

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Leads h2h against his main rivals
Same number of slams as the other two
Won every major at least twice. Can extend that to 3 if he wins FO next year
Holds record for most wins at one major
Beaten Nadal twice at RG and won the title twice with Nadal in the main draw
Holds #1 longer than anyone else

So by may calc fed meets only 2 of that criteria. But yes granted Novak never showed up to SW19 wearing an initialled blazer, a Rolex and long pants, so loses on the grace and style point I kept reading that is important to consider all of a sudden.

Over to you…
So you unilaterally decided the criteria for GOAT and according to your calcs....

 

Number37

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Last chance, what’s yours?
Mine is just an opinion. Exactly like yours, contrary to your claims.

How anyone can claim to know the difference between winning 18 Slams and winning 20 is a little hard to believe.
5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1..therefore the one with 5 is the greatest is quite a leap.

That you reference Federer's outfits just shows how you are clutching at straws.

Some people will say Fed, some will say Joker, some will say Raffa. It is just an opinion, nobody would be wrong.
My opinion is that peak Fed is better than peak Joker by a clear margin, but it is just my opinion.

Before you head back down the rabbit hole, stats obviously play a part in it, but they are not the be all and end all.
When asked, most of the top players (past & present) have named Fed as the GOAT.
 

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bullish23

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Mine is just an opinion. Exactly like yours, contrary to your claims.

How anyone can claim to know the difference between winning 18 Slams and winning 20 is a little hard to believe.
5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1..therefore the one with 5 is the greatest is quite a leap.

That you reference Federer's outfits just shows how you are clutching at straws.

Some people will say Fed, some will say Joker, some will say Raffa. It is just an opinion, nobody would be wrong.
My opinion is that peak Fed is better than peak Joker by a clear margin, but it is just my opinion.

Before you head back down the rabbit hole, stats obviously play a part in it, but they are not the be all and end all.
When asked, most of the top players (past & present) have named Fed as the GOAT.

So let me reference my intangible why I have Novak at the top.

The guy was the outsider. There was this very incestuous Nike click’ at the top of the tennis tree that was comfortable for everyone. The power of Nike’s advertising combined with the convenient way Roger was 1 and Rafa 2, had tournament officials and sponsors salivating of seed 1 v 2 final every GS.

Then comes along this outsider from a country people scoff at, and all of a sudden the comfortable existence was challenged. When Novak first got to 1 or 2, he still copped either Roger or Nadal on his side of the draw. Imagine your whole career never once having majority of centre court support. That’s a long, long time. Yet the guy’s mental strength grew to the point, he is probably the most mentally tough athlete sport has seen (this coming after a time this was rightfully questioned of him with some dubious retirements). Hence why he is now at 20.

You want someone playing for your life, then call Novak. See 2019 Wimbledon final.
 

BobbyMorri

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You want someone playing for your life, then call Novak. See 2019 Wimbledon final.
Not if it is on Clay. I would call Rafa.

If it is on grass, I would call Federer.

But on hardcourt, Novak.

If they would have to use old wooden racquets, I would call Laver

Female.....Graf or Serena. depending on the surface. (Serena on Hardcourt every day of the week)
 

Number37

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So let me reference my intangible why I have Novak at the top.

The guy was the outsider. There was this very incestuous Nike click’ at the top of the tennis tree that was comfortable for everyone. The power of Nike’s advertising combined with the convenient way Roger was 1 and Rafa 2, had tournament officials and sponsors salivating of seed 1 v 2 final every GS.

Then comes along this outsider from a country people scoff at, and all of a sudden the comfortable existence was challenged. When Novak first got to 1 or 2, he still copped either Roger or Nadal on his side of the draw. Imagine your whole career never once having majority of centre court support. That’s a long, long time. Yet the guy’s mental strength grew to the point, he is probably the most mentally tough athlete sport has seen (this coming after a time this was rightfully questioned of him with some dubious retirements). Hence why he is now at 20.

You want someone playing for your life, then call Novak. See 2019 Wimbledon final.

Novak and his fans get upset that he doesn't get the love like Fed and Raffa and you're telling me that makes him mentally tough?
Don't be ridiculous.
That whole "I got an injury but I want to keep it private" thing is one of the reason so many fans prefer Fed and Rafa.
In 20 years people will appreciate Novak for the great that he is, much more than they do now.
He is just sh*t out of luck that he came onto the scene at the same time as we had Fed & Rafa.
 

imagifED

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GOAT is and has been between Djokovic and Nadal for a while, I favour Djokovic at this current moment. Djokovic has equalled or surpassed Federer's most important records whilst facing stronger competition. With Nadal, you can kind of argue from a different perspective, i.e. uniqueness, competition, clay being the most gruelling surface, slam h2h even with clay skew (2-1 vs Djokovic at USO, 3-1 vs Federer at AO), etc.
 

imagifED

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Peak is subjective. Stats from real life matches are objective. Also, this is from Federer in 2015:

“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience. I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”
 

PanzerMan

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Not if it is on Clay. I would call Rafa.

If it is on grass, I would call Federer.

But on hardcourt, Novak.

If they would have to use old wooden racquets, I would call Laver

Female.....Graf or Serena. depending on the surface. (Serena on Hardcourt every day of the week)
Agreed on Nadal for clay and Novak for hard Court (although US open hasn't been great for Novak)

For grass:
Novak 6-1 in Wimbledon finals
Federer 8-4
 

BobbyMorri

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Agreed on Nadal for clay and Novak for hard Court (although US open hasn't been great for Novak)

For grass:
Novak 6-1 in Wimbledon finals
Federer 8-4
12 finals to 7........ 8 wins to 6. ya point????

the fact that old man Fed nearly, and probably should have, beaten "peak" Novak on grass in 2019 is all you need to know.

I will add something else. Grass typically helps the server and the guy who can volley. Sampras probably the model grass court player. alas, Wimbledon has changed and plays slower as it normally did. Even still, Federer id the better server and volley skills and I would pick him for that. His movement was also natural, where Novak struggled a lot with it in his early days.

Personally, would love to see peak Sampras v peak Novak on grass pre 2000. If the returner can combat the server.
 
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PanzerMan

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12 finals to 7........ 8 wins to 6. ya point????

the fact that old man Fed nearly, and probably should have, beaten "peak" Novak on grass in 2019 is all you need to know.

I will add something else. Grass typically helps the server and the guy who can volley. Sampras probably the model grass court player. alas, Wimbledon has changed and plays slower as it normally did. Even still, Federer has the better server and volley skills and I would pick him for that. His movement was also natural, where Novak struggled a lot with it in his early days.

Personally, would love to see peak Sampras v peak Novak on grass pre 2000. If the returner can combat the server.
Djokovic 3-1 against Federer at Wimbledon.
All 3 wins were in the final
 

BobbyMorri

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it was before Novak caught up on the numbers.

I am enjoying the refusal to accept reality though. Keep it coming brate. :)
I have explained myself and my reasoning.

btw I will take Safin every day of the week. Look at this head to head!!!!!!!

Marat Safin d. Novak Djokovic 6-0 6-2 6-1
 

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