Who is the true goat in Tennis ?

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imadodgyumpire

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Car racing is not a sport.
Correct. Car racing is a "motor sport".

Otherwise I exercise 2 hours a day driving.
How many races have you won?


Wawrinka only won 3.


I think F1 is different to tennis in the fact that the cars are all different. Senna, in terms of stats, is nowhere near as good as Lewis Hamilton or Schumacher, but Senna is still widely acknowledged as better or at least equal

I am not old enough to remember but former players say Slams totals is a relatively new thing. The players in the 70's, 80's never came to Aus. for example. I can't recall Sampras ever getting a GOAT tag just because he won the most slams, but, then again, he always failed at the French due to his game style. Previously, your F1 analogy might be correct but now, fans take slams totals and all the other stats as definite and hence the race started and social media haven't been quiet since.

But only in the men's. In the Womens, Court has won the most slams but most pundits won't rate her as the best. There are tennis reasons for that, not just because no one likes her.
I'm saying there's a point with accumulated stats where once you reach it, it doesn't really matter how much more you accomplish.

Let's pick around 6-8 slams. For those of you more knowledgable than me, would' your opinions of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have changed much since they reached that milestone?

Are they really that much better than the guys who've won at least 6 slams of earlier generations who did not benefit from the accumulated knowledge that the records Federer. Nadal and Djokovic benefit from?

In the case of me with F1, it's around 2-30 wins and/or 2-3 championships for the drivers of recent decades, and my opinion doesn't change for anyone except one.
 

pepsi

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Correct. Car racing is a "motor sport".

How many races have you won?



I'm saying there's a point with accumulated stats where once you reach it, it doesn't really matter how much more you accomplish.

Let's pick around 6-8 slams. For those of you more knowledgable than me, would' your opinions of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have changed much since they reached that milestone?

Are they really that much better than the guys who've won at least 6 slams of earlier generations who did not benefit from the accumulated knowledge that the records Federer. Nadal and Djokovic benefit from?

In the case of me with F1, it's around 2-30 wins and/or 2-3 championships for the drivers of recent decades, and my opinion doesn't change for anyone except one.
You can win 6 slams in 18 months. Should not put you in a greatest debate in men's tennis with anything less than 10. Lots of consideration of different stats can go into it, but slams are the biggest indicator of success in the sport. You'd need to have won all slams to be in the greatest debate also.
 

RoweyThePainter

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Correct. Car racing is a "motor sport".

How many races have you won?



I'm saying there's a point with accumulated stats where once you reach it, it doesn't really matter how much more you accomplish.

Let's pick around 6-8 slams. For those of you more knowledgable than me, would' your opinions of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have changed much since they reached that milestone?

Are they really that much better than the guys who've won at least 6 slams of earlier generations who did not benefit from the accumulated knowledge that the records Federer. Nadal and Djokovic benefit from?

In the case of me with F1, it's around 2-30 wins and/or 2-3 championships for the drivers of recent decades, and my opinion doesn't change for anyone except one.
So u are saying anyone who goes to the gym isn't exercising because they haven't won some kind of championship?

I can only assume that from your driving analogy.
 

pepsi

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Ok, pepsi had laid down the marker with 10 slams. Does anyone's opinions of the current big 3 change since winning their 10th?
Tennis is interesting as you can improve technique, strategy and physicality as you go through your career. As an example, Djokovic serve is now much better, more effective and wins him more points than 10 years ago.
 

imadodgyumpire

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Tennis is interesting as you can improve technique, strategy and physicality as you go through your career. As an example, Djokovic serve is now much better, more effective and wins him more points than 10 years ago.
Would that mean Djokovic have benefitted from having a long career and being the latest of the greats to come to the fore?
 

jamjam

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Depends on the criteria.

On a purely objective scale, then it's Djokovic as he will most likely end up with the most slams.
But if we also consider impact in the sport, then its Federer.

Ali was not undefeated.
Messi has not won a world cup.
Jordan does not have the most championships.

But for many they are the GOATs of their sport.

Likewise, Federer is my Tennis GOAT because he transcends the sport.
 

greatwhiteshark

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I always argued you can only go off Grand Slam wins and kept saying it's Fed until he is passed.
Well not only will he get passed he will get easily passed.
Novak it is now.
 

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jamjam

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I always argued you can only go off Grand Slam wins and kept saying it's Fed until he is passed.
Well not only will he get passed he will get easily passed.
Novak it is now.
Hard to argue against Grand Slam wins. In fact you could also mount an argument that Novak's 20 is probably worth more as he had to overcome not just the opposition but also the crowds.
 

Flameboy

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Just thinking about it now, there actually isn't even an argument anymore for either Federer or Nadal.

Djokovic:
- He's won every Slam at least twice.
- He's won every Masters at least twice.
- He leads most weeks as No.1 and is extending that lead. Will probably catch Graf and be the most weeks ever male or female.
- He's beaten both Federer and Nadal in their own backyards multiple times (Wimbledon, French Open). Something the other two haven't been able to do to Novak at the AO (Fed knocked him off once when he was 19yo).
- He leads H2H records with both.

Not to mention he's only two wins away from Grand Slam number 21 and all 4 for the calendar year.

I have always been a huge fan of Nadal, but after this year there's no getting away from the fact that Djokovic's greatness is unsurpassed.
 

RoweyThePainter

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Just thinking about it now, there actually isn't even an argument anymore for either Federer or Nadal.

Djokovic:
- He's won every Slam at least twice.
- He's won every Masters at least twice.
- He leads most weeks as No.1 and is extending that lead. Will probably catch Graf and be the most weeks ever male or female.
- He's beaten both Federer and Nadal in their own backyards multiple times (Wimbledon, French Open). Something the other two haven't been able to do to Novak at the AO (Fed knocked him off once when he was 19yo).
- He leads H2H records with both.

Not to mention he's only two wins away from Grand Slam number 21 and all 4 for the calendar year.

I have always been a huge fan of Nadal, but after this year there's no getting away from the fact that Djokovic's greatness is unsurpassed.
Only argument is nostalgia or biterness.

A great champion.
 

eaglespremiers

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Only argument is nostalgia or biterness.

A great champion.
The typical arguments I'm seeing at the moment:
1. he's not as popular as Federer (as if this should be a consideration);
2. he isn't as elegant as Federer (ala Gasquet's recent comments); or
3. he doesn't impact the sport as much as Federer does (ala Mahat's recent comments).

It is interesting how the narrative is evolving over time.
First it was majors that was most important. Then it was weeks at no. 1. Now it is becoming playing style and preference.
The desperation is growing. I think partly because Federer is being surpassed on all statistical measures even before his career has concluded.

Just have a read of some of the absurd arguments on the long thread over at the Men's Tennis Forums. Apparently Nadal is the GOAT because he has won more US Opens than Djokovic (at least up until now) on his non-preferred surface. You couldn't make this stuff up.
 

Dipper

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I'd say it's hard to proclaim anybody GOAT who has a losing record against their two biggest rivals.

Laver was insane and if he hadn't gone to world team tennis he'd have set a record for all time but its hard to go past Djokovic now.

Borg is the interesting one, partly because he retired age 25 but also he won French 6 times largely overlapping with winning Wimbledon 5 times in a row.

They changed the grass at Wimbledon about 20 years ago to slow it down and since then Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have won both but Federer only has 1 French and Djokovic 2 whilst Nadal has 2 Wimbledon. In the era from early 70s to the end of the 20th century when Wimbledon and clay at FO were so different only 1 player other than Borg won both and that's Agassi who won only 1 of each.

So what Borg did is sensational the surfaces were so different and nobody else got close but it always begs the question why he could never win on the surface that sits between the two, at the US open. That's the mystery. The top players didn't play the Australian back then so the numbers aspect isn't everything.

Djokovic, Laver, Borg, that's your top 3 IMO.

On SM-A326B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

magpies42

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Depends on the criteria.

On a purely objective scale, then it's Djokovic as he will most likely end up with the most slams.
But if we also consider impact in the sport, then its Federer.

Ali was not undefeated.
Messi has not won a world cup.
Jordan does not have the most championships.

But for many they are the GOATs of their sport.

Likewise, Federer is my Tennis GOAT because he transcends the sport.
Fair argument. A couple of points of contention though.

You assume Messi is the GoAT.

I dont think you can measure an individuals standing in team sports based on titles.For sure it is a measure, but other things come into play…particularly measuring across eras. For me it’s Jordan by a country mile, 6 rings and 6 finals mvps…the rest of the stats stack up nicely. The Bulls as a franchise have not won without him. He’s never lost a final at any level. He is an apex predator that played in a pretty tough era.

Ali I take your point, definitely as much about theatre and building the sport as it is anything else.

Federer realistically has the most visually appealing game style, so I get the infatuation…he was also first of the big three on the scene…so people once they pick a player/team they tend to stick with them…his PR team and sponsors built him though. Granted they had a lot to work with, but the media determine the narrative.

I guess it comes down to what is the definition of GOAT…
 

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