Who is the true goat in Tennis ?

[eaglespremiers]

I just found this on Wikipedia
"Prior to 2009, Federer accumulated the most year-end ATP ranking points in any season, with 8,370 points in 2006. Since the introduction of a new point scale for the ATP rankings from 2009, Djokovic achieved the same feat with 16,585 ranking points in 2015 season." - so that change in the point scale may have altered how the points were calculated I'm assuming.

And of course it's a subjective argument from me - I can only go off what I've seen. I don't expect everyone to agree which is what makes sport great. Across every sport there are these debates (NBA - Jordan/Lebron for instance).

Sure, I'll grant the change of ATP points calculations (which I was unaware of).
Federer's 2006 season (whilst fantastic) is still slightly behind Djokovic's 2015 IMO due to the number of Masters 1000s Djokovic won that year (four vs six).

Regardless I think the objective argument outweighs the subjective. Stastically Djokovic has Federer covered on all relevant lines:
1. Majors - 22 v 20
2. Weeks at No 1 - 374 (and counting) v 310
3. Masters 1000s - 38 v 28
4. No. of Major finals - 33 v 31
5. All Grand Slams - Djokovic - twice, Federer - once
6. Golden Masters - Djokovic - twice, Federer - nil
7. Years End No. 1 - 7 v 5
8. Head-to-head - 27 v 23
9. Career percentage wins - 83.5% v 82%
10. Majors Head-to-head - 11 v 6

Basically all you have going for Federer is overall no. of titles (which is diminished because many of them are the equivalent of 250 or 500 tournaments) as well as most consecutive weeks at no 1 (perhaps a good argument for a weak era, no?).
It is also very reasonable to project that Djokovic will finish with more titles than Federer.

By retirement Djokovic will probably have more total wins at each Major (he is trailing Federer by 13 wins at the Australian Open, 19 wins at Wimbledon and 8 wins at the US Open, he is ahead of Federer at the French) and is already considered better than Federer on the hard courts as well as clay. Grass is arguable depending on how much you rate tournaments like Basel. For me Djokovic's three Wimbledon finals wins over Federer are pretty determinate in that regard. In either event Djokovic is better on two surfaces and arguably as good on the other major surface.

In all, the only argument that may be left to the Federer fan by the end of Djokovic's career, save for the wholly subjective position you are proposing, will be his consecutive weeks at no. 1, which is in no way decisive or particularly compelling. Unless you know of another statistic that I'm not considering?

 

[carlton_99]

In all, the only argument that may be left to the Federer fan by the end of Djokovic's career, save for the wholly subjective position you are proposing, will be his consecutive weeks at no. 1, which is in no way decisive or particularly compelling. Unless you know of another statistic that I'm not considering?

The numbers favour Djokovic - there is no argument to be made against that. However, I would say that Fed would have a lot more Masters 1000s than 28 if there was some on grass. But because they played in slightly different eras I just don't think stats alone can adequately capture the GOAT conversation. For some it will and that is fair enough, but like other sports we don't just see one answer. I think in the end prime Federer is the best tennis I have seen so for me he is the GOAT. Of course if he had 8 grand slams I wouldn't make an argument like that. But because the difference in grand slams, head to head etc are pretty negligible I think I can make that argument in good conscience. However, in the end all three players are the greatest trio we have ever seen. All at their peak are phenomenal and we are just lucky to be living in that period of tennis. Hopefully, there is a few up and coming stars who can take over soon as it is getting slightly boring

As a side note about the Novak being better on clay - yes he has got the extra RG grand slam but Roger had made 5 French Opens (for one win and four losses against Nadal) whilst Novak has made 6 (for two wins against Tsitsipas and Murray and four losses, 3 against Nadal and one against Stan). I don't think the difference here is that significant. Their H2H is 4-4 on clay as well (1-1 at RG). Federer hasn't beaten Nadal at RG and Novak has so if you want to use that factor it could push it Novak's way (plus some extra Masters titles). Federer did however end that Novak 41-game streak at RG in 2011. Also if you take into account playing style Djokovic's is far more suited to clay than Federer's.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Novak is the best of all time. Pulling away now.

Cricket. The Don.
Golf. Tiger.
Basketball. Jordan.
Tennis. Djoker.

You forgot Carlsen.

 

[boncer34]

He has been the best player by far since 2018 - but in my opinion that is the weakest era we have seen in tennis for a while. Won 10 grand slams in that time and if you take out the one win against Rafa at 2019 AO the rest have been against 9 players with a combined one GS at the time of the match (and it was Del Potro who won US Open 9 years earlier). Federer for me always had to play a younger Novak and Rafa and was still competing with them even when he was 37-38. Head to head only shifted Novak's way when Federer turned 36 and Federer has shown an ability to beat Novak at his peak (after his massive winning streak in 2011). Federer is still the GOAT for me. Would have Novak as a close 2nd with Rafa 3rd.

You know Grand Slams are more than the final yeah?

Roger didn't win a Grand Slam past 36 btw.

 

[boncer34]

The mid-30s don't seem to be bothering Djokovic's defence at the moment Thrawn.

In Thrawn defense he has admitted he got this one wrong

 

[SSSSSS]

Just saw this posted on reddit.

Uncanny how dominant he has been. Would have had much longer weeks at #1 if not for the Covid Freeze and being an antivaxxer.

Fed with 237 weeks consecutively is a record I don't think we will ever see broken is just about the only thing that keeps him in the discussion.

 

[BringouttheGimp]

 

[SSSSSS]

Djoker = Sugar Ray Robinson (the actual GOAT resume beating >10 HOF fighters)

Fed = Ali (The people's GOAT - legacy goes beyond his sporting achievements and international icon).

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Djoker = Sugar Ray Robinson (the actual GOAT resume beating >10 HOF fighters)

Fed = Ali (The people's GOAT - legacy goes beyond his sporting achievements and international icon).

Federer has a huge anount of coal investments so he's not my hero.

 

[boncer34]

Djoker = Sugar Ray Robinson (the actual GOAT resume beating >10 HOF fighters)

Fed = Ali (The people's GOAT - legacy goes beyond his sporting achievements and international icon).

Good comparison

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Djokovic will end with 25+ slams.

Rafa probably has 1 more French in him.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Djokovic will end with 25+ slams.

Rafa probably has 1 more French in him.

This year is Rafa’s last chance actually feel he will retire regardless at the French. Injuries are starting to pile up and the form isn’t there

 

[Milanista28]

Novak is the best of all time. Pulling away now.

Cricket. The Don.
Golf. Tiger.
Basketball. Jordan.
Tennis. Djoker.

I don't watch basketball a lot and I don't follow the sport but when I look at highlights of Jordan and Lebron and think who would win in a 1v1 I always think Lebron would monster him, am I mad?

 

[1990crow]

I don't watch basketball a lot and I don't follow the sport but when I look at highlights of Jordan and Lebron and think who would win in a 1v1 I always think Lebron would monster him, am I mad?

Different eras, but I would argue Jordan would be able to jump over him or take plenty of fouls.

 

[Milanista28]

Different eras, but I would argue Jordan would be able to jump over him or take plenty of fouls.

Man it would be a joy to watch that.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I don't watch basketball a lot and I don't follow the sport but when I look at highlights of Jordan and Lebron and think who would win in a 1v1 I always think Lebron would monster him, am I mad?

Every year it comes up but most people have Jordan still in front. There’s a few in that top tier. You have Kobe and Steph too

 

[eaglespremiers]

Fed with 237 weeks consecutively is a record I don't think we will ever see broken is just about the only thing that keeps him in the discussion.

Does it, though?
It's certainly not a top 5 consideration.
Maybe it sneaks into top 10.

 

[RobbyRoy]

They do. With Djokovic specifically however, he only started leading once Federer turned 36. Like I said age difference makes the comparison hard as Fed had like a 13-6 lead before he was 30, and then Djokovic went 21-10 of their next lot of meetings when Fed was >30. I see Nadal as Federer's biggest rival and had his number for a long time. Federer surprisingly evened it up a bit in the last 5 or so years post 2017 Aus Open. I still see Djokovic as a better overall player than Nadal purely because he has been more dominant at 3/4 of the grand slams. Nadal on clay but is as close to unbeatable as you can get in sport.

The peak argument is a tricky one, because peak is undefinable and these guys are actually changing what the perception of it is for tennis. All three have played every bit as well into their 30s, with an almost constant evolution to their games to keep in touch with the others. I would argue Fed's 13-6 lead over Novak before 30 isn't very impressive as Novak was only 18-23 years old, with a likely peak several years later.

And just to throw in my 2 cents: Fed's best is the most effortlessly brilliant, devastatingly beautiful tennis I've ever seen. But Novak is now the greatest player to have played the game.

 

[adammania9]

He’s in my opinion the best sportsman of our generation, and wondering the opponents he held at bay his entire career i’d have him in the conversation for best sportsman of all time

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I am a huge Federer fan and I will forever say Federer is the guy I want to go and watch play tennis. But the reality is that Novak and Rafa have passed his Grand Slam record and there is no other way to determine the GOAT other than Major titles.
Djokovics record could expand by quite a few more majors yet. Have we been blessed in our lifetimes to see 3 such superstars.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

He’s in my opinion the best sportsman of our generation, and wondering the opponents he held at bay his entire career i’d have him in the conversation for best sportsman of all time

Don Bradman has that title. almost twice as good as every other player to play same sport. Jordan, Djokovic, Pele, Brady etc can not say that. They were better than there peers but not twice as good.
Bradman was.

 

[adammania9]

Don Bradman has that title. almost twice as good as every other player to play same sport. Jordan, Djokovic, Pele, Brady etc can not say that. They were better than there peers but not twice as good.
Bradman was.

correct and I typically add a lot of weight to domination over peers but in tennis I believe there’s a special exemption considering there’s clearly a dominant few as opposed to one clear standout. The numbers are incomparable to any other sport comparing the big three to their peers, and yet I still think Djokovic stands clear of Rafa and Fed by a fair way.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

correct and I typically add a lot of weight to domination over peers but in tennis I believe there’s a special exemption considering there’s clearly a dominant few as opposed to one clear standout. The numbers are incomparable to any other sport comparing the big three to their peers, and yet I still think Djokovic stands clear of Rafa and Fed by a fair way.

I think it's much closer than that, All lost title matches to each other when one or two points went against them. All three are genuine superstars and it is rare that in one era you can say that in a sport. Djokovic has shown he might be that miniscule bit better but it's not much in it.

The only think I will say is I wish they had never slowed down the courts at Wimbledon, this really gave the baseline player a far greater chance on that court. They have never made clay faster to combat Rafa but they certainly made the grass slower to combat Roger.
Might not of made an ounce of difference and we will never know. But it's a valid point.

 

[BringouttheGimp]

Don Bradman has that title. almost twice as good as every other player to play same sport. Jordan, Djokovic, Pele, Brady etc can not say that. They were better than there peers but not twice as good.
Bradman was.

Was Bradman twice as good as everyone else cause he was a visionary and everyone else was primitive in their approach to the game? Sharpening his reflexes by hitting a golf ball with a stump on a water tank. Did he do that cause the pitches were uneven and they had trouble picking up which direction the ball would go? What was everyone else doing at the time? Was he a 2023 cricketer playing in 1928? Everyone else at the time a 1928 cricketer? Was he like his own sports psychologist? Fitness trainer? Analyst? Support staff? Etc. His stats make him look supernatural but was he really?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Was Bradman twice as good as everyone else cause he was a visionary and everyone else was primitive in their approach to the game? Sharpening his reflexes by hitting a golf ball with a stump on a water tank. Did he do that cause the pitches were uneven and they had trouble picking up which direction the ball would go? What was everyone else doing at the time? Was he a 2023 cricketer playing in 1928? Everyone else at the time a 1928 cricketer? Was he like his own sports psychologist? Fitness trainer? Analyst? Support staff? Etc. His stats make him look supernatural but was he really?

These questions have been asked forever, what are the answers? God Knows.
So all you can do is go off the info we have, and that info clearly states his standing as almost twice as good as every other batsman to have played the sport. Freak possibly, call it what you want but it doesn't change anything.