Who owns the mess at Brisbane?

[Bosun]

As stupid as it sounds why was Fev sacked?? I honestly cant remember.

Speaking of which that was the only trade that didnt work. Assigning names to draft picks they gave up doesnt fly, you have no idea who they would draft if they had their time again and its a pointless argument.

I think they have done quite well, Rockliff, Redden, Rich Banfield, Luey...definately players that can provide a solid foundation. However all that takes time, the fact they have the likes of Brown and Black still there to guide them will be of great benefit.


They dont have the talent now to beat any top 6-8 team, I watched us tear them apart in round 2 (still cant get my head around people tipping them to beat Carlton after their Melbourne win). A bit of patience is required I honestly dont think Voss has been that bad.

 

[Toffee Lion]

As stupid as it sounds why was Fev sacked?? I honestly cant remember.

Speaking of which that was the only trade that didnt work. Assigning names to draft picks they gave up doesnt fly, you have no idea who they would draft if they had their time again and its a pointless argument.

I think they have done quite well, Rockliff, Redden, Rich Banfield, Luey...definately players that can provide a solid foundation. However all that takes time, the fact they have the likes of Brown and Black still there to guide them will be of great benefit.


They dont have the talent now to beat any top 6-8 team, I watched us tear them apart in round 2 (still cant get my head around people tipping them to beat Carlton after their Melbourne win). A bit of patience is required I honestly dont think Voss has been that bad.

Fev was sacked for being Fev.

Any Carlton supporter would know what I mean

 

[Offsider]

I would have thought that our 2008 draft was pretty decent to be honest with:
Rich
Redden
Banfield
Cornelius
Rockliff

They are all pretty good prospects, and 3 of them form the nucleus of our young midfield. Obviously 2009 was pretty bad, not going to lie we made a few mistakes there. We picked up some ok, but unproven talent, no elite prospects and only Golby from the rookie list is top 22 atm. 2010 is too early.

The obvious problem is our drafting between 2001 and 2007.

2001:
19: Jason Gram - St Kilda (traded due to lack of opportunity)
No one else played more than 4 games

2002:
3: Jared Brennan - reasonable player, left to play with the suns, not worth pick 3.
19: Troy Selwood - delisted
30: Daniel Merrett - Only decent player drafted, our full back and integral part of our team.
The rest were crap.

2003:
18: Liane Spaandermann: who???
33: Jed Adcock: good player, yet no star
61: Rischatelli: Good player gone to the Gold Coast
Rookie: Josh Drummond: Very good if he would stop being injured.

2004:
18: Cameron Wood - Collingwood - crap player traded for Travis Johnstone so crap for crap essentially.
45: Sherman - ok player traded to Bulldogs
So no players left from that draft and nothing decent really.

2005:
9: Mitch Clark - underperformer for us except one decent year traded to Melbourne for pick 12.
56: Joel Patful - decent player yet no star, just an average performer.
Everyone else has been delisted and all were pretty average players.

2006:
4: Leuenberger: Star decent pick
22: Proud - crap troublesome player
This year was crap outside of Leuenberger, we had 2 second rounders and failed to make either them or the other picks work for us.

2007:
8: Henderson - good player holding down CHB for a top team traded away for Fevola, didn't show much with Brisbane though.
25: Collier - crap delisted
41: Polkinghorne - solid player yet nothing special will he just be depth??


So with only with 1 first rounder in 7 years still with you then you can see why we did are not doing well this year. Also we only picked up 6 first 22 players in 7 years of drafting, pretty crap IMO, especially when those players should be in their prime. Out of them:
1. Leuenberger is the only very good player
2. Merrett, Adcock and Drummond (when fit) are decent first 22 players
3. Polkinghorne and Patful are borderline best 22 IMO.

That is why we are so crap this year, its pretty simple. 2009 trade period helped - the trading of Fevola was the only real issue IMO there, but the drafting between 2001 and 2007 was the bigger issue.

 

[Hollow Knight]

If the OP is insistent on trotting out stuff that's been done 100 times before, it would help to at least get the facts right...

To start with... take Anthony Corrie out (how did you come up with that crap - we traded him to Collingwood that year) and put Jack Redden in.

Overall, D- thread. Old cliches that have done before.

Like others have said, if you actually want to really look at the main reason why our list is in a poor state, look at our drafts from 2001-2007. Getting rid of Gubby Allan is the best thing that has happened to the club in years.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Gubby Allan and Michael Bowers own the mess at the lions. Gubby probably a bit more. Created a huge mess with the salary cap, one of the most arrogant pieces of s#%# you could ever meet and so was Bowers. I blame Voss for some as well but put an inexperienced coach into a club with an under resourced footy department due to terrible work from Bowers combined with all the problems that Gubby caused then we were bound to hit rock bottom like we did in 2010.

 

[The Captain]

If the OP is insistent on trotting out stuff that's been done 100 times before, it would help to at least get the facts right...

To start with... take Anthony Corrie out (how did you come up with that crap - we traded him to Collingwood that year) and put Jack Redden in.

Overall, D- thread. Old cliches that have done before.

Like others have said, if you actually want to really look at the main reason why our list is in a poor state, look at our drafts from 2001-2007. Getting rid of Gubby Allan is the best thing that has happened to the club in years.

If you look at the 2001 - 2007 drafts like you say, there is some great talent in there. Unfortunately it all left the club by being traded out or leaving themselves

When Voss came, same issues. Good players being traded out or wanting to leave

Something is not right at Brisbane, whether it be list management or culture (no one wants to stay, etc)

I am pondering whether or not Voss is actually responsible like everyone says he is. Seems to be deeper than that???

 

[Offsider]

Look why the good players have left:

Mitch Clark - $$$$$$$
Brennan - $$$$$$

Both players thought they were stars and wanted to be payed like stars turned out they weren't. No loss there. Jason Gram left for opportunity, he couldn't break into a premiership team. Cameron Wood left for opportunity, he was third ruck in line at best. Henderson left for opportunity was not in our top key position players, not a regular so left to b join a team with crap KPP.

Stop trollliiinnnnn

 

[Hollow Knight]

If you look at the 2001 - 2007 drafts like you say, there is some great talent in there.

Not a hell of a lot, certainly less than the recent drafts you are trying to pan us for.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Fact is, at the end of 2008, we were a team that was treading water and looked in dire need of a rebuild. No one rated us in the short term, and rightly so.

Voss comes on board, extracts something special in 2009 and gets one last finals tilt out of an average list.

He misreads the quality of the list and goes for a top-up. Fev is a disaster and cost us Lachie Henderson and downgraded our first round pick into a second rounder.

But the other mature recruits really don't cost much at all Staker (success) and Buchanan (fail) costed us Bradd Dalziell... yes, Bradd Dalziell. Maguire cost nothing. Raines, now a genuine high quality tagger cost pick 44, that's a good deal. Xavier Clarke was a failure, but cost us pick 60, hardly setting us back in a big way.

Either way, after 2008, and some painful down years were inevitable. No one rated us then, yet now people are trying to say that Voss has set us back in a huge way? He delayed the rebuild by a year, that's about it.

Yeah, he's made some mistakes, but the down period we are copping today is much more traceable to the cyclical nature of the comp. We were always going to pay the price for 4 grand finals in a row. Young talent was expended for the sake of keeping the core premiership list together, and our recruiters did a poor job with the low picks we had in that era. Lethal was not a rebuilding coach either... bottoming out would have been a foreign concept to him. He's a legend but keeping him around after the premierships was probably a bad idea as we treaded water there for a while instead of realising the party was over.

But yeah, if you find the Crazy Vossy derp stuff too good to resist, go for it. Lay it all at his feet exclusively.

 

[The House]

There seems to be a fair few on here saying something along the lines of "well at least Vossy had the balls to give it a go" type comments....i strongly disagree.

I agree that the drafting from 02-07 seems a little thin, but there's far more too it than that.


At the time I said that Voss was far too cavalier with the idea of simply trading his way to a flag - to me it showed a distinct lack of understanding of what makes up the fabric of an Australian Rules footy club.



Vossy at the time seemed to disregard the team harmony and loyalty that Brisbane had built. He had the opportunity to galvanize the list and have the new draftees entering an environment in which they played for each other and their legendary coach.

Instead they were drafted into an environment in which a number of the club's loyal servants felt unapreciated and jaded....if a group of the senior and most repected players are genuinely unhappy with the way the coach is going about things, the disharmony inevitably spreads across the list.


At the time (without the benifit of hindsight) I said that Vossy was shopping his men around with a mindset that might be more appropriate in another sport. Perhaps soccer or one of the American sports in which loyalty and love for the club usually take a back seat to money - Aussie rules is usually the opposite of this mind set, as demonstrated by the fact that so few of the game's better players ever accept offers to move for more cash.

It is this concept that seemed to be completely lost on Vossy - rebuilding a positive culture with a young list, is a lot harder than simply allowing your new players to be swept up in an existing positive culture with great role models to follow. Brisbane had a core group of guys when he arrived, that almost all should have been one club players - instead Vossy fractured that culture by shopping many of them around, resulting in a less than content group of senior players.

 

[Gibbo_88]

There seems to be a fair few on here saying something along the lines of "well at least Vossy had the balls to give it a go" type comments....i strongly disagree.

I agree that the drafting from 02-07 seems a little thin, but there's far more too it than that.


At the time I said that Voss was far too cavalier with the idea of simply trading his way to a flag - to me it showed a distinct lack of understanding of what makes up the fabric of an Australian Rules footy club.



Vossy at the time seemed to disregard the team harmony and loyalty that Brisbane had built. He had the opportunity to galvanize the list and have the new draftees entering an environment in which they played for each other and their legendary coach.

Instead they were drafted into an environment in which a number of the club's loyal servants felt unapreciated and jaded....if a group of the senior and most repected players are genuinely unhappy with the way the coach is going about things, the disharmony inevitably spreads across the list.


At the time (without the benifit of hindsight) I said that Vossy was shopping his men around with a mindset that might be more appropriate in another sport. Perhaps soccer or one of the American sports in which loyalty and love for the club usually take a back seat to money - Aussie rules is usually the opposite of this mind set, as demonstrated by the fact that so few of the game's better players ever accept offers to move for more cash.

It is this concept that seemed to be completely lost on Vossy - rebuilding a positive culture with a young list, is a lot harder than simply allowing your new players to be swept up in an existing positive culture with great role models to follow. Brisbane had a core group of guys when he arrived, that almost all should have been one club players - instead Vossy fractured that culture by shopping many of them around, resulting in a less than content group of senior players.

Which players are you referring to that he shopped around?

 

[King Elvis]

You do know that Voss was in charge for the 2008 trading and drafting period right?

Voss took a calculated gamble at the end of 2009 that didn't pay off. I personally think he has balls to put everything on the line to try and steal a premiership before some of the older champs left the game.

It wasn't a calculated gamble, it was moronic.

 

[western royboy]

There seems to be a fair few on here saying something along the lines of "well at least Vossy had the balls to give it a go" type comments....i strongly disagree.

I agree that the drafting from 02-07 seems a little thin, but there's far more too it than that.


At the time I said that Voss was far too cavalier with the idea of simply trading his way to a flag - to me it showed a distinct lack of understanding of what makes up the fabric of an Australian Rules footy club.



Vossy at the time seemed to disregard the team harmony and loyalty that Brisbane had built. He had the opportunity to galvanize the list and have the new draftees entering an environment in which they played for each other and their legendary coach.

Instead they were drafted into an environment in which a number of the club's loyal servants felt unapreciated and jaded....if a group of the senior and most repected players are genuinely unhappy with the way the coach is going about things, the disharmony inevitably spreads across the list.


At the time (without the benifit of hindsight) I said that Vossy was shopping his men around with a mindset that might be more appropriate in another sport. Perhaps soccer or one of the American sports in which loyalty and love for the club usually take a back seat to money - Aussie rules is usually the opposite of this mind set, as demonstrated by the fact that so few of the game's better players ever accept offers to move for more cash.

It is this concept that seemed to be completely lost on Vossy - rebuilding a positive culture with a young list, is a lot harder than simply allowing your new players to be swept up in an existing positive culture with great role models to follow. Brisbane had a core group of guys when he arrived, that almost all should have been one club players - instead Vossy fractured that culture by shopping many of them around, resulting in a less than content group of senior players.

Not many coaches get an opportunity to totally bottom out, then rebuild and have a crack at a flag, certainly not after winning 3 in a row. Following on from the 2004 GF loss, we did not play finals again until 2009.
Given we still had Brown, Black, Power and Co. and some positive signs from Mitch Clark, Brennan, Rischa, Drummond, Merret etc, Voss & Co elected to try and pinch one. I don't blame him.

Keep in the back of your mind there were some commercial reasons behind 2010 as well, the Suns were coming in next year, corporate and membership sales were heading south, there was the pereception we needed to fend off the challenge from down the road by putting bums on seats with an entertainment machine named Fevola.

Obviously the plan failed dismally but at the time it was worth a shot and I don't blame him one bit.

 

[DrummoSolo]

Fact is, at the end of 2008, we were a team that was treading water and looked in dire need of a rebuild. No one rated us in the short term, and rightly so.

Voss comes on board, extracts something special in 2009 and gets one last finals tilt out of an average list.

He misreads the quality of the list and goes for a top-up. Fev is a disaster and cost us Lachie Henderson and downgraded our first round pick into a second rounder.

But the other mature recruits really don't cost much at all Staker (success) and Buchanan (fail) costed us Bradd Dalziell... yes, Bradd Dalziell. Maguire cost nothing. Raines, now a genuine high quality tagger cost pick 44, that's a good deal. Xavier Clarke was a failure, but cost us pick 60, hardly setting us back in a big way.

Either way, after 2008, and some painful down years were inevitable. No one rated us then, yet now people are trying to say that Voss has set us back in a huge way? He delayed the rebuild by a year, that's about it.

Yeah, he's made some mistakes, but the down period we are copping today is much more traceable to the cyclical nature of the comp. We were always going to pay the price for 4 grand finals in a row. Young talent was expended for the sake of keeping the core premiership list together, and our recruiters did a poor job with the low picks we had in that era. Lethal was not a rebuilding coach either... bottoming out would have been a foreign concept to him. He's a legend but keeping him around after the premierships was probably a bad idea as we treaded water there for a while instead of realising the party was over.

But yeah, if you find the Crazy Vossy derp stuff too good to resist, go for it. Lay it all at his feet exclusively.

I'm going to print this post off and staple it to the head of any "DERP CRAZY VOSSY" sorts. Sums it up so much better than I could have.

 

[cammo78]

If someone asked a St Kilda or Bulldogs would they accept 3 straight flags, to be followed by a decade of declining performance, Do you think they'd knock it back?

This.

FFS - three in a row nine years back!!!

And some finals since.

 

[MisterMarcus]

It's all very well to say Voss "had the courage to make a big call", but this "big call" has been shown time and time again to have failed. Topping up with a whole bunch of recycled players has almost never led to Premiership glory.

At best, if you have one hole to fill you can land a big name, like Ottens for us. But if you need to bring in 4-5 recycled players in one season, it should be enough to suggest that your team's not good enough in the first place.

Voss made a terrible mistake and is now having to go back and do the rebuild 2-3 years after he should have.

 

[youtwo]

The poor drafting by the Lions between 2002-2007 was also part of the reason why Voss went down the recycle path at the end of 2009. He was trying to balance up the list with 25-28 year olds. Not saying it was the right way to go but that was part of the reasoning at the time.

 

[MisterMarcus]

The poor drafting by the Lions between 2002-2007 was also part of the reason why Voss went down the recycle path at the end of 2009. He was trying to balance up the list with 25-28 year olds. Not saying it was the right way to go but that was part of the reasoning at the time.

Fair enough, but in hindsight they'd be no worse off now if they'd just cleared out the duds and drafted a bunch of kids.

 

[scaryness]

Who's to say that if Brisbane had those draft picks they would pick players like Duncan and Lucas? They could have picked spuds instead. It's all speculation.

 

[JasRulz63]

Fair enough, but in hindsight they'd be no worse off now if they'd just cleared out the duds and drafted a bunch of kids.

I guess some consolation we have is that at least we have some experience around the club teaching our kids and providing decent role models. Melbourne have showed that simply clearing out all the duds and drafting a bunch of kids isn't always the best approach, with no senior role models. From all reports Buchanan is playing some good footy in the reserves, and being a good leader for the recent draftees we've had.

 

[Lockie]

If you look at the 2001 - 2007 drafts like you say, there is some great talent in there. Unfortunately it all left the club by being traded out or leaving themselves

When Voss came, same issues. Good players being traded out or wanting to leave

Something is not right at Brisbane, whether it be list management or culture (no one wants to stay, etc)

I am pondering whether or not Voss is actually responsible like everyone says he is. Seems to be deeper than that???

The whole Voss thing has been done to death by other posts.

In regards to the "(no one wants to stay, etc). Rich/Redden/Rockliff/Polec/Leuenberger/Karnezis/Polec have all recently re signed to long term deals with the club.

The only one that left last year was Mitch Clarke who wanted to go home to his sick grandmother in Perth and to be closer to family. Mitch then decided the offer of some big bucks from Melbourne cancelled out all of the above.

I doubt you will find many Brisbane Lions supporters on the board that would have been all that sad about loosing Clarke.

Carlton cheated the books and paid the price. Tanked and got rewarded with a number of first round picks. We've made mistakes and have paid the price for that and are rebuilding. Others have clearly explained about Gubby Allen and then old board, but you don't want to listen to that.

 

[Black Diamond]

It matters little now that the big call at the end of 2009 has failed.

The only determining factor about Voss continuing is what he can offer going forward.

 

[yaco55]

Didn't Brisbane send down Rischitelli and Bradshaw as part of a possible trade for Fevola.

Bradshaw refused to sign a contract, moved to Sydney, still hasn't been back for premiership re-unions, Rischitelli went to the GC the following year.

Think House's post has an element of truth.

 

[sr36]

Given we still had Brown, Black, Power and Co. and some positive signs from Mitch Clark, Brennan, Rischa, Drummond, Merret etc, Voss & Co elected to try and pinch one. I don't blame him.

.

Who is the co. that you speak of? Given where Brisbane were at and the midfielders they had at their disposal, it was a ridiculous decision by Voss and co.

 

[western royboy]

Who is the co. that you speak of? Given where Brisbane were at and the midfielders they had at their disposal, it was a ridiculous decision by Voss and co.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, even Terry Wallet can review past drafts and now pick Buddy instead of Tambling or whatever it was.

At the time he deemed it to be worth a shot. We can't change it.