Who should bat at no. 3 in ODI's?

MisterMarcus

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#26
he's had 19 ODI innings @ 22. HS of 67. he's handy, but he's hardly the gun bat that everyone thinks he is. you said you want him to open with warner and bat watto at 3. how often do you think we'd make it to 15 overs without losing a wicket (or 2)? we need a solid reliable opener that has a good chance of reaching this part of the innings on a regular basis.. i don't think warner/wade can offer that. klinger was the highest run scorer, opened the batting @55 last year. SR of 82. 2x100s and 2x50s in 9 games and captained the trophy winning side. to disregard him and blame his "selection" on bias is laughable.
Well we're not getting that now with Warner/Watson or whatever other combos they came up with! Didn't we get at least a couple of big opening stands with Warner/Wade in the home summer?

Wade would be averaging much higher than 22 opening....I think he made a couple of 70s and a 50-odd coming in up the order. Batting 7 you're often forced to come in and go the slog which (a) does not suit Wade's game, and (b) obviously deflates the averages of guys down the order.

Wade playing himself in and knocking it around early on also compliments Warner's crash and bash style, and would probably allow Warner more freedom to just play his shots.
 

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MisterMarcus

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#27
I like that team, especially McKay and Faulkner as the bowlers....

We seem to have developed this strange idea that our bowlers all have to knock blokes heads' off: pre-series all the hype was about how Lee and Pattinson and Cummins were gonna destroy England with extreme pace...whereas it's been McKay who's been the pick of the bowlers with his accuracy, changes of pace and variation.
 
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#28
Well we're not getting that now with Warner/Watson or whatever other combos they came up with! Didn't we get at least a couple of big opening stands with Warner/Wade in the home summer?

Wade would be averaging much higher than 22 opening....I think he made a couple of 70s and a 50-odd coming in up the order. Batting 7 you're often forced to come in and go the slog which (a) does not suit Wade's game, and (b) obviously deflates the averages of guys down the order.

Wade playing himself in and knocking it around early on also compliments Warner's crash and bash style, and would probably allow Warner more freedom to just play his shots.
Highest score of 67 and last four scores of 0,1,6,0 - I question his spot in the team yet alone at the top of the order.

Hows Tim Paine going? He can bat anywhere.

Wish Australia had a batsman who can keep a bit, cos thats all we need. AB De Villiers keeps ofr South Africa and their batting line up is awesome.
 

lincsPJ

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#29
Wade on fire opening again I see. At least smith made a valuable, well constructed 20 to validate his place in the squad. Ditto forest gump. Hey at least we know we're officially taking the piss during this series.
 

dajesmac

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#30
Batting Bailey at 7 was ridiculous last night. Needs to bat in the top 5. I have faith in Smith becoming a good one day finisher in a few years, but at this stage he shouldn't bat above 6.

1) David Warner
2) Matthew Wade
3) Shane Watson
4) Michael Clarke
5) George Bailey
6) David Hussey
7) Michael Hussey

Mitch Marsh and Steve Smith could battle for the number 7 spot as depth. Forrest isn't up to it just at the moment but I'd like to see him with more experience. Needs to work on his ability to turn the strike over and also his running between the wickets. Either way, he needs to bat in the top 4, like Bailey, he's an accumulator and shouldn't be any lower than that. Guys like Cam White and Ferguson have serious potential but need a few seasons of good sustained OD form. Hopefully they're back by the time the Husseys retire. Let's not forget Phil Hughes either, has shown in county cricket he can bat at 3.
 
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#31
I've gone through this painful argument before on other forums (and yeah, for most people it WAS about being a Clarke fanboi.....)

But Steve Waugh had a pretty darn good Top 4 above him for most of his career (some variations of Taylor/Slater/Boon/Hayden/M Waugh/Langer/Ponting). There was no necessity for him to move up the order...if there had been, I reckon Waugh would have done so.

Ponting moved up from 6 to 3 and became The Man as captain.

I think Clarke should too. Our problems are at the top of the order in both Tests and ODIs and IMHO it's time he stood up and accepted that role. He's our captain, probably our best batsman, and in ODIs he's our most experienced batsman, so should not need these sorts of "well he's not suited to 3 so let's protect him down the order" excuses made for him anymore.

It doesn't seem to make sense that guys still trying to find their feet at this level (Warner, Cowan, Forrest, Khawaja, etc) and an old bloke who is coming towards the end (Ponting) should be batting above a guy who's in his prime and has been in excellent form lately.
Rubbish. Waugh batted at three in six tests and couldn't cut it, averaging low 30s. It's the hardest spot to bat, along with opening. He was a middle order batsman.

I'm hardly a Clarke fanboi when my basic point is Clarke doesn't have the ability to bat at 3. But the real point is that some guys have the tools to bat in the top 3, and some guys are middle order players. Clarke could bat at 3, and would no doubt make some runs, but would also go out early a lot too. He's going to be far more consistent for us in the middle, so he should stay there.
 

MisterMarcus

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#32
Rubbish. Waugh batted at three in six tests and couldn't cut it, averaging low 30s. It's the hardest spot to bat, along with opening. He was a middle order batsman.

I'm hardly a Clarke fanboi when my basic point is Clarke doesn't have the ability to bat at 3. But the real point is that some guys have the tools to bat in the top 3, and some guys are middle order players. Clarke could bat at 3, and would no doubt make some runs, but would also go out early a lot too. He's going to be far more consistent for us in the middle, so he should stay there.
Waugh "couldn't cut it" at 3 when he couldn't cut it at Test level in any position.

You can't tell me the SRW MkII of the mid-late 90s wouldn't have done well at 3.
 

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#33
Did someone just mention white? Seriously? And Steve smith for depth? You've got to be kidding. White was finished years ago and smith is in the same mould. A young spinner who can catch, who then realised he was never going to make it as a spinner and turned to improve his batting, only to discover that his batting is ok at best at state level. Why would you bat these duds at 7 when they don't even bowl?

The only depth that these blokes bring to the team is the depth of shit that Australian cricket is in at the moment.
 
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#34
Waugh "couldn't cut it" at 3 when he couldn't cut it at Test level in any position.

You can't tell me the SRW MkII of the mid-late 90s wouldn't have done well at 3.
Not true. He was tried at 3 in '92 and '93, which was well after the 1989 Ashes in which he established himself as a test batsman. Fact is, he couldn't cut it when he'd been a test player for a number of years.

If he could've batted there, surely he would have in the period between Boon retiring and Ponting coming of age. Fact is he couldn't cut it at three.

I know it goes against everyone's romantic fantasy of Waugh as the "Anzac battler who you'd have in the trenches with you", but he couldn't handle #3. Clarke can't either, but it's ok to sh_itcan him about it because he's a "soft pretty boy" in the public perception.
 

MisterMarcus

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#35
I know it goes against everyone's romantic fantasy of Waugh as the "Anzac battler who you'd have in the trenches with you", but he couldn't handle #3. Clarke can't either, but it's ok to sh_itcan him about it because he's a "soft pretty boy" in the public perception.
Well, no. Isn't it paying him a compliment to say that the "he can't hack it" excuses are wrong, and that he can and should move up into the most challenging batting spot?

On one hand we're struggling badly in the top order in Tests and ODIs...we're throwing a bunch of inexperienced guys (Khawaja, Forrest, Marsh) straight into number 3 and then bagging them when they aren't up to it.

On the other hand, we have a guy who's just scored a Test 300, is in the form of his life, is our captain, arguably now our best batsman, and in ODIs is our most experienced batsman....and he's cooling his heels down the order. IMO as someone who is leader AND best batsman of the team, he should be taking it upon himself to front up at first drop.

He's opened in ODIs and batted #3 for NSW...it's not like he's a flat track bully who needs "hiding" at 5 or 6. It's no good saying "he won't score as well at 3". If he doesn't score as well at 3 as at 5, so be it, he'd still do a better job at 3 than anyone else we've tried recently. And these younger guys in turn might do better easing in at 5 or 6 than being flung straight into first drop.
 
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#36
Well, no. Isn't it paying him a compliment to say that the "he can't hack it" excuses are wrong, and that he can and should move up into the most challenging batting spot?

On one hand we're struggling badly in the top order in Tests and ODIs...we're throwing a bunch of inexperienced guys (Khawaja, Forrest, Marsh) straight into number 3 and then bagging them when they aren't up to it.

On the other hand, we have a guy who's just scored a Test 300, is in the form of his life, is our captain, arguably now our best batsman, and in ODIs is our most experienced batsman....and he's cooling his heels down the order. IMO as someone who is leader AND best batsman of the team, he should be taking it upon himself to front up at first drop.

He's opened in ODIs and batted #3 for NSW...it's not like he's a flat track bully who needs "hiding" at 5 or 6. It's no good saying "he won't score as well at 3". If he doesn't score as well at 3 as at 5, so be it, he'd still do a better job at 3 than anyone else we've tried recently. And these younger guys in turn might do better easing in at 5 or 6 than being flung straight into first drop.

I understand the point trying to be made, but the fact remains- not everyone can bat at 3.

Clarke prefers batting at 5 as it suits his game, just like it suited Waugh's.

Generally, guys who can open or bat at 3 in tests have a slightly different game to middle order players. They enjoy the pace on to the bat, whereas guys who prefer the middle order prefer to use their feet more. Some guys can do both, but not many.

Khawaja and Marsh are both guys with the potential to bat at 3 for Australia in tests. Maybe Forrest could as well.

One guy who could also bat there short term is Mike Hussey. I think he is the one guys in the Australian team who could bat anywhere from opening to six.
 

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#37
People saying that the one day series will have no bearing on how good we go in the Ashes- dont believe that for second. We are looking terrible and confidence is shot. Particularly considering most of England's side in the one day series plays tests. They have our number and its still months till a ball is bowled in anger.
 

frankrizzo

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#38
This particular series didn't change my mind on our ashes chances, we didn't have the top 6 to win back the ashes a month ago and we still don't.

It's too late to hope the new generation can do the job next year as well, we carried ponting and hussey through massive form slumps and now we have no choice we are stuck with an inconsistent(some might say soft) top order and a geriatric middle, sounds like the English team we beat up on during 89-95.
 
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#39
We should be looking at this for our test match XI with a view to the Ashes, but starting this summer, in my opinion:

D. Warner
M. Hussey
S. Watson
R. Ponting
M. Clarke
U. Khawaja/ G. Bailey/ P. Hughes/ N. Maddinson
M. Wade/T. Paine/ Neville
P. Siddle
J. Pattinson/ R. Harris/ P. Cummins
B. Hilfenhaus
N. Lyon


If we don't blood a new youngish batsman at 6, we're wasting the whole point of having Hussey and Ponting stay on. Put Hussey up to open, where he can bat with Warner, and get someone younger in to the number 6 spot.
 

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#40
I called for hussey to open last year but no one listened. Batting inexperienced blokes at 6 is obvious, but only people that talk sense (ie us and not CA) can see that. On that XI I'd switch Clarke and Watson. Wattos not a #3. Can you see him digging in for a well crafted 150 with a solid defence in tests? I can't. I'd love him to be the next kallis but he's at least 1 level of class below Jacques, probably 2 levels.
 

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#42
Did someone just mention white? Seriously? And Steve smith for depth? You've got to be kidding. White was finished years ago and smith is in the same mould. A young spinner who can catch, who then realised he was never going to make it as a spinner and turned to improve his batting, only to discover that his batting is ok at best at state level. Why would you bat these duds at 7 when they don't even bowl?

The only depth that these blokes bring to the team is the depth of shit that Australian cricket is in at the moment.
Hussey often batted at 7 and doesn't bowl.

Smith does have potential, as did White, these types must be persevered with. Did you watch none of the IPL? Both players have/will have plenty to offer in limited overs cricket.
 
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#43
Seems I've discovered this thread too late. Surely the answer is Brad Hodge at no 3 in ODIs!!!
He'd still do a better job now than anyone else put forward, but as he's got no mates in CA or the playing group might be too disruptive to 'team harmony'.
He even diversified and took up bowling non-spin like D Hussey, M Clarke, D Warner, etc. for a while.
Don't worry about his age, grey hair and liability in the field. With S. Smith as specialist fieldsman/permanent 12th man, Hodge can fake cramp/diarrhea and sort that little problem.
 

lincsPJ

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#44
Hussey often batted at 7 and doesn't bowl.

Smith does have potential, as did White, these types must be persevered with. Did you watch none of the IPL? Both players have/will have plenty to offer in limited overs cricket.
the difference between hussey getting picked to bat at 7 and now smith at 7, is that hussey could actually bat and truly added depth to the side (a rather strong side 8 years ago). when hussey was batting at 7, who was above him? gilly, hayden, ponting, martyn, symonds and clarke. that's a fairly handy side to ease into at 7 now that we look back! our bowlers were lee, mcgrath, gillespie, hogg and symonds. 5 blokes you were comfortable bowling 10 each. in a team that strong (only now we appreciate how important gilly was to the structure) you could afford a bloke at 7 that didn't bowl.

i don't think at the moment we can afford to carry blokes. do you see smith as a future top 6 test bat, or are you hanging onto the faint hope that he might have more ability than a B grade club leg spinner? i don't think he's in the top 6 batsmen in the country right now.

IPL has little bearing on who should be playing in the national ODI side. if domestic baseball/slap and tickle cricket comps are anything to go by, then hodge, george hogg and daniel harris would have been pushing for selection last year... and gilchrist.

i won't even write about barry white. he's finished.
 

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#45
IPL has little bearing on who should be playing in the national ODI side. if domestic baseball/slap and tickle cricket comps are anything to go by, then hodge, george hogg and daniel harris would have been pushing for selection last year... and gilchrist.

i won't even write about barry white. he's finished.
A lot of people forget (or don't realise) the huge role the IPL played in where Shane Watson is as a player nowadays. His first season with Warney at Rajasthan did him some major wonders. :thumbsu:

Shaun Marsh too; though he's slipping into some bad habits now.
 

dajesmac

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#46
the difference between hussey getting picked to bat at 7 and now smith at 7, is that hussey could actually bat and truly added depth to the side (a rather strong side 8 years ago). when hussey was batting at 7, who was above him? gilly, hayden, ponting, martyn, symonds and clarke. that's a fairly handy side to ease into at 7 now that we look back! our bowlers were lee, mcgrath, gillespie, hogg and symonds. 5 blokes you were comfortable bowling 10 each. in a team that strong (only now we appreciate how important gilly was to the structure) you could afford a bloke at 7 that didn't bowl.

i don't think at the moment we can afford to carry blokes. do you see smith as a future top 6 test bat, or are you hanging onto the faint hope that he might have more ability than a B grade club leg spinner? i don't think he's in the top 6 batsmen in the country right now.

IPL has little bearing on who should be playing in the national ODI side. if domestic baseball/slap and tickle cricket comps are anything to go by, then hodge, george hogg and daniel harris would have been pushing for selection last year... and gilchrist.

i won't even write about barry white. he's finished.
I was talking about the recent home summer, I'm sure Hussey was batting at 7 at times in the triangular series. Either way it's obvious Smith was picked based on his IPL form, where he showed great potential as a finisher, I presume that's the role they intended him to take on batting at 7. Our current side already has 5-6 bowling options anyway (with Watson in the top order) so I don't think it is strictly necessary to have a number 7 that can bowl if Watson/Dussey/Clarke are in that top order. However by the same token I'd be happy for Mitch Marsh to come in at 7 over Smith.

Don't agree with your last argument - Hogg and Gilchrist had retired and were never going to rejoin the ODI scene and Hodge is massively out of favour. Smith at least is young and was in better form that Dan Harris. And as Thorne89 said the IPL has proven in the past to be a fairly good hunting ground for young talent.

Meh, I don't necessarily disagree anyhow that Smith should be in the top 5. Just saying.
 

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#47
yeh sure.. i was just getting at the fact that there's some blokes with good numbers playing in domestic 2020 comps that may not be up to international standard.

yeh id rather see mmarsh or faulkner given a run.

ah shaun marsh.. his main bad habits are failing with the bat and his cardboard body falling apart... but again... how much has that test series destroyed his confidence? he was thrown to the wolves at 3 whilst ponting, clarke and hussey sat hiding in the pavillion. same with usman. but that's for another rant another day - this thread has already run off course enough.
 

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#48
Fair enough. Yeah I like the look of Faulkner aswell, but he got belted a bit in the IPL from memory. If he can develop his batting to the point where he could bat in the top 7 he would be very handy.

Yeah exactly. Would really hope we give Shaun another shot, I feel there's nothing we can do other than to give him another shot to prove himself, but with two massive series against RSA and England it's hardly the time for pumping games into fringe players. Do we have a home series against SL in between that? I can't remember.
 

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#49
Fair enough. Yeah I like the look of Faulkner aswell, but he got belted a bit in the IPL from memory. If he can develop his batting to the point where he could bat in the top 7 he would be very handy.

Yeah exactly. Would really hope we give Shaun another shot, I feel there's nothing we can do other than to give him another shot to prove himself, but with two massive series against RSA and England it's hardly the time for pumping games into fringe players. Do we have a home series against SL in between that? I can't remember.
Who isn't a fringe player? Every series we have what you might call 'fringe players' through injury, dropping players through lack of form and sheer desperation.We don't have a set team, apart from Watson and Clarke and possibly Warner as he's going to get a shitpile of rope, you may well call all of them 'fringe players'.

I suspect, with Smith, that they really want to persist with him this time. He's played quite a lot now and it's about the time they'd expect to start getting some return. I'd give him a couple more series, then if he's still doing stuff all, however much time he has to bat in ODI's, give him the Damien Martyn treatment.
 

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#50
Everyone aside from Warner, Watson, Clarke, Wade, Hussey, Dussey, Hilfenhaus, Pattinson and even Doherty IMO are fringe players. The above would be a lock for a game at this stage if fit.
 
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