Moved Thread Who was/is the better player. Gary Ablett jnr or Dustin Martin?

[Chief Ten Beers]

Luckily Jeremy Howes, Will Hoskin-Elliot, Jack Crisp, Darcy Cameron, Taylor Adams and Patrick Lapinski aren't playing for Collingwood this weekend.

WHE not playing for a franchise team. Sadly, Abblett did for cash. Left his team stranded for the dollar then tried to come back and it was sad.

 

[HairyO]

Whichever player didnt play for the OPs team.

 

[STPer18]

And they voted for GAJ because he was the ONLY veteran footballer at a club. Everybody else was still a teenager. It was a given he’d win it. Same with his 4 B&Fs at the Suns, only got 2 at the cats. Do you really think an 18 year old could’ve won the B&Fs at the suns? The contract pretty much had 2 MVPs, 4 B&Fs and leading goal kickers on it in invisible ink. Plus he didn’t give a s**t about winning games so he could play as selfish as wanted which he did. He is the ultimate state hoarder in the game taking advantage of being at a start up club, you guys have fallen for the ruse think he is better than he actually is.

MVPs are voted across the entire league, not just the GCs playing list you silly goose.

 

[Falcon3518]

Your whole logic on MVP is laughable. It has nothing to do with being the most valuable player in your team. It is simply the best player as voted by the players. Otherwise midfielders would never win it. Would be guys like Stewart and May.

And as far as being in a weak team helping him you might just want to check how many other players have won the MVP from poor teams. I can tell you. Only 1 player in the last 30 years (Cripps) has won the MVP from a bottom half of the ladder team.

No it’s in regards to the team, GAJ had no value to any other club other than the Suns because at the time he didn’t play anywhere else. The best player award is meant to be the Brownlow, they didn’t make another award to mean the same thing it literally means value in the team it’s in the name ffs, AFL is a team sport. If I was a player I would’ve voted for GAJ too at the Suns, poor guys had nobody else there.

 

[Osho]

I am always curious as to who posts such...such...such...idiosyncratic posts.

GAJ's consistent great form over MANY years may be unparalelled. I think Barney is the other guy I witnessed that was brilliant for the long haul. Perhaps also Williams who was always up and genius. Well, mostly.

Martin - don't want to denigrate him in the least - more of the Errol Flynn Superman type, swinging in to save the world, or the Tiges, and swinging out again, then swinging back.

The other 3 blokes mentioned imo are Gods - ever present when they played.

 

[Osho]

Whichever player didnt play for the OPs team.

BINGO!

 

[Falcon3518]

Ablett's only poor final in his first 17 (Martin has played in 15 up to this stage of his career), which was his first stint at Geelong was the 2005 semi against Sydney when Nic Davis got them up from out of nowhere. In his second stint at Geelong when he was 34 - 36 years old, he played a further 8 finals and didn't set the world on fire, a little cameo here and there to get the team rolling or to keep them in touch and ended with him busting his shoulder in the opening minutes of the 2020 gf.

Let's see what Dusty's putting up when he's 34 to 36 years of age.

As I said before the big difference is when Martin plays well in a final (also has an 80% BOG rate) it’s a 100% win rate with GAJ it’s not even close to that. Played unreal in 08 GF cats still lost. Dusty won the 2020 GF ON HIS OWN, we were cooked. Trumps any useless awards won at the Suns. Can’t believe this is even a question.

 

[PhatBoy]

Again GAJ got 2 MVPs at the Suns because he was the only player not 18 years old, people just don’t think so they. “bUt He DoMiNaTeD tHe CoMp FoR 7 YeArs” at a club that didn’t make finals, yeah would be shaking in my boots going up against GAJ at the Suns

You have a tremendous ability to ignore direct connections between what people are saying and the evidence that backs it up.

You can argue all you want about the shittiness of the Suns and whether it did, or didn’t impact on the perception of Ablett.

What you cannot argue is this:
The suns were in their 4th season - and I think everyone would agree that their GWS counterparts had gotten their list and their trajectory and their development much more spot on and it wasn’t until their FIFTH season that they made the finals.

In that fourth season, the Suns were 9-6. They had 7 games remaining, 6 of them against sides below them on the ladder.

Ablett Jr does his shoulder and misses the remaining 7 games. They go 1-6 and miss the finals and then go 2-14 to start the next season. Their record without Ablett prior to an attempted comeback late in 2015, is 3-18, after going 9-6 with him in the side.


So, using your infinite powers of deduction - which so far seem to dismiss ablett’s genius in a team of superstars, AND his genius in a team of rookies, what do you think the conclusion is from the data I just showed you? Like most people digesting that information, I would arrive at the deduction that the Suns were a very poor side but Ablett was so good that they were actually hard to beat when he was there and virtually an extra bye when he wasn’t.



You get so set on this path that ‘my opinion is right’ that you eventually get to a point where you create an impossible set of criteria in which someone can succeed.

Ie. in this case you’ve tried to ignore that sheer quality of Ablett’s output over 4 seasons or 100 games in which he competed with numerous superstar teammates for attention, and when somebody has pointed out that he maintained or even exceeded that level in his first four seasons at the Gold Coast, you’ve written that off as well because they were s**t and he had no one else to compete with for accolades (except for the 22 guys from the opposition each week that he seemed to be holding at bay single handedly)

You have created a set of judgement criteria that are literally impossible to satisfy to bend around your argument, rather than looking at reality and then forming your stance

 

[Osho]

Poll looks like it could go either way at the moment...

ROAR!

 

[Falcon3518]

MVPs are voted across the entire league, not just the GCs playing list you silly goose.

You clearly don’t read my multiple responses on this issue bro

 

[PhatBoy]

WHE not playing for a franchise team. Sadly, Abblett did for cash. Left his team stranded for the dollar then tried to come back and it was sad.

Yes he left his team stranded with their 17 remaining all Australians and an impending premiership for a 220 percent pay increase. Which of course we know no other player would ever do

 

[Noidnadroj]

Line them up against the wall and if it’s a H&A game you choose Gazza and if it’s a final you choose Dusty.

Gazza was a very good finals player. Dusty is the best ever. So deciding who is better depends on how much weight you place on finals over H&A.

Dusty’s very best is better but he hasn’t done it as consistently. Dusty can do everything Gaz can but Gaz can’t do everything Dusty can.

One other consideration is Geelong remained a great team without Gazza, so for whatever reason they didn’t miss him. And Gazza was superb individually at Gold Coast but the way he played was not conducive to GC being a great team. It was all built around Gazza being a great player - loop around handballs to him, 1-2’s, no-one else included in the feast except Gaz. He was good enough to have them finals bound before busting his shoulder, but the rest of the team hadn’t developed and when the ‘old’ Gazza never returned to his best post injury the team was a rabble.

Dusty is the ultimate ‘team’ player, Gazza was never that.


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[RonnieRaven]

Again GAJ got 2 MVPs at the Suns because he was the only player not 18 years old, people just don’t think so they. “bUt He DoMiNaTeD tHe CoMp FoR 7 YeArs” at a club that didn’t make finals, yeah would be shaking in my boots going up against GAJ at the Suns

That makes it even better the fact that his in a s**t team it’s not the Brownlow where votes are stolen from other guns in the team.
If dusty was drafted to gold coast he’s. Cv would nearly be empty.
Like I’ve said prior to dusty Gary Ayres wasn’t classified in the top echelon of players even with
5x flag
2x norm

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Yes he left his team stranded with their 17 remaining all Australians and an impending premiership for a 220 percent pay increase. Which of course we know no other player would ever do

Sadly, that's why he'll never be as great as Dusty, a man of principle who never chased the dollar and sold out his teammates.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sadly, that's why he'll never be as great as Dusty. A man of principle.

A man of principle who has never been put in the same situation as Ablett and as discussed earlier in this actual thread if you bother reading, turned down a $200,000 a season pay increase, not a $1,000,000 per season pay increase.

Principal - I like how you say that like leaving one job for another with a huge pay increase is something that unprincipled people do.

 

[Falcon3518]

Line them up against the wall and if it’s a H&A game you choose Gazza and if it’s a final you choose Dusty.

Gazza was a very good finals player. Dusty is the best ever. So deciding who is better depends on how much weight you place on finals over H&A.

Dusty’s very best is better but he hasn’t done it as consistently. Dusty can do everything Gaz can but Gaz can’t do everything Dusty can.

One other consideration is Geelong remained a great team without Gazza, so for whatever reason they didn’t miss him. And Gazza was superb individually at Gold Coast but the way he played was not conducive to GC being a great team. It was all built around Gazza being a great player - loop around handballs to him, 1-2’s, no-one else included in the feast except Gaz. He was good enough to have them finals bound before busting his shoulder, but the rest of the team hadn’t developed and when the ‘old’ Gazza never returned to his best post injury the team was a rabble.

Dusty is the ultimate ‘team’ player, Gazza was never that.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Thank you, this is 100% spot on

 

[STPer18]

You clearly don’t read my multiple responses on this issue bro

I'm not putting myself through that first thing on a Saturday.

 

[Toump Ass]

You seriously think that other players were offered $1 million PER SEASON more than they were getting at their existing club, and knocked it back. Players like Martin who we know for a fact have not been offered that sort of money, we are supposed to imagine that they would not have done that?

Luke Hodge who finished his career at a different club, wouldn’t have gone elsewhere for a $1 million a year pay rise?

All clubs have rich benefactors helping out players with nice post-football employment opportunities, cheeky property deals etc. Cept GCS and GWS who have to rely on AFL "ambassador payments". Plenny nice sponsorship deals for the Geelong boys too, Cotton On whatever.

Anyway I don't think 800,000k and 1.8mill is that different. Like if you wanna get drunk in your garage by yourself and you got 2 slabs of beer that's probably gonna get you drunk, you don't need 20 slabs, know what I'm saying? He was set up for life, but also money-hungry piggyman who wanted more. Maybe he was just scared of having to play more finals, he coulda played heaps of them but he was holding prayer groups with karmichael coke-man instead.

 

[Sky]

Dont join the Richmond nuffs and be the first Geelong nuff.

Dusty was the standout player of 2017.

As someone who admires Dusty and can’t stand Dangerfield because of his ugly personality, I actually disagree.

 

[Falcon3518]

That makes it even better the fact that his in a s**t team it’s not the Brownlow where votes are stolen from other guns in the team.
If dusty was drafted to gold coast he’s. Cv would nearly be empty.

He was able to stat hoard because he didn’t care about winning. The whole teams game plan was give it to Gaz. Not hard to figure out why his CV is inflated. His MVPs don’t match with his Brownlow or Coaches association numbers. He got 2 leading goal kickers at the Suns NONE at the cats. He also got DOUBLE the B&Fs at the Suns than the Cats ( 4v2). ALL OF WHICH WERE IN THE FIRST 4 YEARS of goal coasts inception. Gee I wonder why? Can’t believe you guys are actually falling for it

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Principal - I like how you say that like leaving one job for another with a huge pay increase is something that unprincipled people do.

I don't think Principals leaving jobs for better pay is unprincipled. This is about football, and sadly Abblett is guilty of chasing the dollar , then realizing it was a mistake and coming back with his tail between his legs. Something Dusty never did, which makes him an all time great.

 

[glengowan]

If you have to choose - Dusty

 

[STPer18]

Shut the poll, it's getting ugly now.

 

[Falcon3518]

I'm not putting myself through that first thing on a Saturday.

This is why you contribute nothing to this thread and are essentially PB’s wingman liking his comments.

 

[PhatBoy]

All clubs have rich benefactors helping out players with nice post-football employment opportunities, cheeky property deals etc. Cept GCS and GWS who have to rely on AFL "ambassador payments". Plenny nice sponsorship deals for the Geelong boys too, Cotton On whatever.

Anyway I don't think 800,000k and 1.8mill is that different. Like if you wanna get drunk in your garage by yourself and you got 2 slabs of beer that's probably gonna get you drunk, you don't need 20 slabs, know what I'm saying? He was set up for life, but also money-hungry piggyman who wanted more. Maybe he was just scared of having to play more finals, he coulda played heaps of them but he was holding prayer groups with karmichael coke-man instead.

What does any of what you just said even mean? ‘You already make a good wage albeit one not even close to being commensurate with your standing in the game, in a career that ends when you are 35, so you shouldn’t take a better offer because in 12 years a religiophobe on a footy forum will judge you.’


Set up for life? What, so Ablett’s lifestyle for the 60 years following his retirement should be dictated by whether he wants to appease a bunch of non-footballers who would do exactly the same as him in that situation? ‘Well I could have actually bought my children an investment property of their own but there was a guy who questioned my loyalty and principles so I decided against signing the contract and now here we are.’