Who will be better in 2023 Richmond or Brisbane?

[rye]

cotchin has a more decorated career but dal santo was a much better player, especially considering his midfield contemporaries were stronger as well imo

 

[Falcon3518]

just a rough look at it, the 2005-2008 AFL drafts had aprox 70-mid 80's selections taken at the national draft. the past 3 seasons has seen 59 and 60ish picks taken at the national... even thought back then we had 16 teams and now we have 18 sides, and we are seeing more and more sides pass towards the end rounds. So no, we do not have more talent coming through, we have a situation where we have added two sides and do not have enough quality talent to bat deep into drafts. Sides would rather pass and take punts in the rookie and supplemental periods. It has caused a decrease in the standard across the competition.

I don’t think that’s correct. Them selecting less kids means they don’t have enough room. If they were picking heaps of kids then the talent pool is diluted.


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[Noidnadroj]

cotchin has a more decorated career but dal santo was a much better player, especially considering his midfield contemporaries were stronger as well imo

Yep… running around getting 30 silky touches a week worked out sell for zero flag DalSanto. Cotchin’s 20 touches, 17 body smashes, 10 Hardball gets, regular kamikaze acts and heaps of crucial body blows probably served his team better.


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[Falcon3518]

Yep… running around getting 30 silky touches a week worked out sell for zero flag DalSanto. Cotchin’s 20 touches, 17 body smashes, 10 Hardball gets, regular kamikaze acts and heaps of crucial body blows probably served his team better.


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Don’t even worry, cotch gets in and dal santo won’t. They’ve forgetten how good he was as he wasn’t in his prime during our flags. We gave GAJ a pass for not being the best later in his career, these guys don’t want to return the favour.


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[Falcon3518]

cotchin has a more decorated career but dal santo was a much better player, especially considering his midfield contemporaries were stronger as well imo

Cotchin got his Brownlow in 2012, first season was 08. So he played in this super team era with the same contemporaries. Wtf are you talking about.


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[Jhye Clark 13]

cotchin has a more decorated career but dal santo was a much better player, especially considering his midfield contemporaries were stronger as well imo

I think people forget just how good Cotchin was.

For one, he's been a better footballer than Dal Santo.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Brisbane. For the Falcon melts.

 

[Noidnadroj]

just a rough look at it, the 2005-2008 AFL drafts had aprox 70-mid 80's selections taken at the national draft. the past 3 seasons has seen 59 and 60ish picks taken at the national... even thought back then we had 16 teams and now we have 18 sides, and we are seeing more and more sides pass towards the end rounds. So no, we do not have more talent coming through, we have a situation where we have added two sides and do not have enough quality talent to bat deep into drafts. Sides would rather pass and take punts in the rookie and supplemental periods. It has caused a decrease in the standard across the competition.

I’m not sure I agree, mainly based on the quality of players listed as emergencies or not getting games in modern footy. Even look at the Cats GF team …. Parfitt only came into the 22 last minute. He’s a bloody good footballer who couldn’t get a game.

Jack Graham couldn’t get a game in Richmond’s finals team. Castagna was a staple from 2017-20 and can’t get a game. Marlion Pickett played VFL this season. Daniel Rioli played VFL in 2021.

Ollie Wines played SANFL a couple of years back. Coniglio a regular seconds player only recently. Matt Crouch can’t even get a game in a bottom team. Jayden Hunt, Weidemann, Ben Brown … all regular VFL players in 2022. Fiorini plays regular
QAFL.

I just don’t recall good players playing VFL 15-20 years ago. Now I find myself regularly thinking “How is he not getting a game?”.

And every team 15-years ago almost without exception … almost… was sprinkled with really average players who memory tells me are worse than most ‘average’ players getting a game at AFL
level now.

Chris Scott said it best in a recent interview “I’d hate to be a defender playing now”. And Lethal
Leigh Matthew’s ‘cringes’ at the quality of football when he watches games from his era.



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[rye]

Cotchin got his Brownlow in 2012, first season was 08. So he played in this super team era with the same contemporaries. Wtf are you talking about.


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yes cotchin got his brownlow and AA in 2012, as he hit the 22-24 year old mark where most midfielders start to enter their prime - not really in a season of the super st kilda / geelong teams either

dal santo on the other hand got his first AA in 2005, and by the time Cotchin was hitting his straps, Dal Santo was past his peak and beginning to decline / head towards retirement alongside the other high quality mids who peaked within his era such as judd, bartel and hayes

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I’m not sure I agree, mainly based on the quality of players listed as emergencies or not getting games in modern footy. Even look at the Cats GF team …. Parfitt only came into the 22 last minute. He’s a bloody good footballer who couldn’t get a game.

Jack Graham couldn’t get a game in Richmond’s finals team. Castagna was a staple from 2017-20 and can’t get a game. Marlion Pickett played VFL this season. Daniel Rioli played VFL in 2021.

Ollie Wines played SANFL a couple of years back. Coniglio a regular seconds player only recently. Matt Crouch can’t even get a game in a bottom team. Jayden Hunt, Weidemann, Ben Brown … all regular VFL players in 2022. Fiorini plays regular
QAFL.

I just don’t recall good players playing VFL 15-20 years ago. Now I find myself regularly thinking “How is he not getting a game?”.

And every team 15-years ago almost without exception … almost… was sprinkled with really average players who memory tells me are worse than most ‘average’ players getting a game at AFL
level now.

Chris Scott said it best in a recent interview “I’d hate to be a defender playing now”. And Lethal
Leigh Matthew’s ‘cringes’ at the quality of football when he watches games from his era.



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its a good discussion to have, i am just a bit over the back and forth with someone who doesn't grasb very basics and alot of posters struggle with. But i am happy to chat with yourself or others about it.

it is alot to analyse and i don't have the time nor effort to do it at the moment, but from a quick glance over there is not an increase in nationally drafted players since the introduction of 2 new sides, in fact a decrease is seen but it does fluctuate. So what is going to happen when you have 18 teams sharing the same amount of top prospects from the national draft instead of 16?? you will get a diluted more spread out pool, which is exactly what we have seen. Throw in ontop of that the equality measures which have stopped rich clubs spending excess on innovation and more staffing, and you have a lower but more even standard across the board... which is exactly what you have gotten of the past 5 or so years.

I don't doubt it is a good look for the game having so many nailbiters and eveness across the competition, but it does not provide better standard top 4 teams fighting come finals.

would you like to post the top 4 sides from 2011 or 2009 and compare them to the top 4 teams from 2019 or even 2022? i don't think it will even come close the comparisons.

 

[Pns_blister]

I can’t believe 30 people have voted for Richmond. They won’t even make the 8. Hopper and Taranto have atrocious foot skills and are so vanilla. Going to be some serious pain coming up for the Tigs over the next few years. Expected considering the success they had. What goes up.

 

[Falcon3518]

yes cotchin got his brownlow and AA in 2012, as he hit the 22-24 year old mark where most midfielders start to enter their prime - not really in a season of the super st kilda / geelong teams either

dal santo on the other hand got his first AA in 2005, and by the time Cotchin was hitting his straps, Dal Santo was past his peak and beginning to decline / head towards retirement alongside the other high quality mids who peaked within his era such as judd, bartel and hayes

Ah yes I forgot, according to the Dal Santo era rules the super team era ended in 2011 and the comp became s**t in 2012 which coincidently happened to be the year Cotchin won the Brownlow nice man real nice.


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[geelong_crazy26]

I can’t believe 30 people have voted for Richmond. They won’t even make the 8. Hopper and Taranto have atrocious foot skills and are so vanilla. Going to be some serious pain coming up for the Tigs over the next few years. Expected considering the success they had. What goes up.

i think the belief is they will do what geelong has done and remain a top 4 premiership contender for the next decade. next 2 years will tell alot towards that theory

 

[My Tilly]

Brisbane comfortably.

 

[Falcon3518]

its a good discussion to have, i am just a bit over the back and forth with someone who doesn't grasb very basics and alot of posters struggle with. But i am happy to chat with yourself or others about it.

it is alot to analyse and i don't have the time nor effort to do it at the moment, but from a quick glance over there is not an increase in nationally drafted players since the introduction of 2 new sides, in fact a decrease is seen but it does fluctuate. So what is going to happen when you have 18 teams sharing the same amount of top prospects from the national draft instead of 16?? you will get a diluted more spread out pool, which is exactly what we have seen. Throw in ontop of that the equality measures which have stopped rich clubs spending excess on innovation and more staffing, and you have a lower but more even standard across the board... which is exactly what you have gotten of the past 5 or so years.

I don't doubt it is a good look for the game having so many nailbiters and eveness across the competition, but it does not provide better standard top 4 teams fighting come finals.

would you like to post the top 4 sides from 2011 or 2009 and compare them to the top 4 teams from 2019 or even 2022? i don't think it will even come close the comparisons.

Comp was weak in 2009/10 mate that’s why saints got 20-2 with an unimpressive list. Ask yourself what’s more likely every other year is s**t or it’s just those years are an exception of a weak comp. 20-2 teams don’t get thumped by 56 points in a GF. They should be getting 3peats. You kick GWS, Port, Swans as weak GFs but not the saints. Interesting.

Also who are the Saints best 5 players:

Richmond’s are Rance, Dusty, Cotchin, Lynch, Riewoldt.

It smashes the top 5 saints which would be something like:

Riewoldt, Milne, Hayes, Goddard and some other guy, you pick.


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[geelong_crazy26]

Brisbane comfortably.

much better list than richmond. Only issue is fagans coaching

 

[My Tilly]

much better list than richmond. Only issue is fagans coaching

The latest recruits will certainly give them the edge in the finals next year. I felt Fagan did enough this past finals to ensure he can take them to the grand final. It was a disappointing showing against Geelong in the prelim but even Sydney were embarrassed the following week so their aim should be a grand final and potential premiership in 2023/2024.

Richmond will struggle to make finals next season.

 

[Falcon3518]

The latest recruits will certainly give them the edge in the finals next year. I felt Fagan did enough this past finals to ensure he can take them to the grand final. It was a disappointing showing against Geelong in the prelim but even Sydney were embarrassed the following week so their aim should be a grand final and potential premiership in 2023/2024.

Richmond will struggle to make finals next season.

Hmm we recruit 2 good midfielders and we do worse than this year? Interesting take, probably why you’re in the minority. Markets have us 3rd and Brisbane 5th.


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[Noidnadroj]

its a good discussion to have, i am just a bit over the back and forth with someone who doesn't grasb very basics and alot of posters struggle with. But i am happy to chat with yourself or others about it.

it is alot to analyse and i don't have the time nor effort to do it at the moment, but from a quick glance over there is not an increase in nationally drafted players since the introduction of 2 new sides, in fact a decrease is seen but it does fluctuate. So what is going to happen when you have 18 teams sharing the same amount of top prospects from the national draft instead of 16?? you will get a diluted more spread out pool, which is exactly what we have seen. Throw in ontop of that the equality measures which have stopped rich clubs spending excess on innovation and more staffing, and you have a lower but more even standard across the board... which is exactly what you have gotten of the past 5 or so years.

I don't doubt it is a good look for the game having so many nailbiters and eveness across the competition, but it does not provide better standard top 4 teams fighting come finals.

would you like to post the top 4 sides from 2011 or 2009 and compare them to the top 4 teams from 2019 or even 2022? i don't think it will even come close the comparisons.

What about the bottom 6 teams? That supposedly super strong era of 2010-11 had a lot of very, very weak clubs. Basket case level which didn’t even include GWS and GC. Melbourne. Richmond. Carlton. Brisbane. And a very weak era for non-Vic clubs also.

Is the era of tennis stronger with 3 all-time legends in Djokovic, Federer and Nadal winning 60 of 66 Grand Slams or whatever it is? (ie. super strong top-3). Or was the era stronger in the era with Edberg, Becker. Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Courier ? (ie. a more even spread of competitors).

I think both arguments have merit, as would Djokovic, Nadal and Federer won 20+ slams each in the 1980’s and 1990’s? I doubt it. And would Sampras have won 20+ if he played in the 2000’s instead of Djokovic? Every chance the answer is yes.

Sampras was not as dominant as the ‘big-3’, but isn’t that because there was more depth of quality opposition and not because he wasn’t necessarily as good?


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[My Tilly]

Hmm we recruit 2 good midfielders and we do worse than this year? Interesting take, probably why you’re in the minority. Markets have us 3rd and Brisbane 5th.


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Yep, you guys are old and unlike Geelong, you did not recruit two gun forwards (Cameron & Stengle) to fall back on if the midfield is getting beaten.

Brisbane had no Hipwood for a quarter of the season. He returned from an ACL and improved as the season progressed. He will take another step forward in 2023.
Dunkley is a contested ball magnet. Allows Zorko to fade away into the sunset.
They will have nine players aged between 24-27, the sweet spot when competing for a premiership.
They just beat Richmond as underdogs in this years elimination final and went on to play in a prelim.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

What about the bottom 6 teams? That supposedly super strong era of 2010-11 had a lot of very, very weak clubs. Basket case level which didn’t even include GWS and GC. Melbourne. Richmond. Carlton. Brisbane. And a very weak era for non-Vic clubs also.

Is the era of tennis stronger with 3 all-time legends in Djokovic, Federer and Nadal winning 60 of 66 Grand Slams or whatever it is? (ie. super strong top-3). Or was the era stronger in the era with Edberg, Becker. Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Courier ? (ie. a more even spread of competitors).

I think both arguments have merit, as would Djokovic, Nadal and Federer won 20+ slams each in the 1980’s and 1990’s? I doubt it. And would Sampras have won 20+ if he played in the 2000’s instead of Djokovic? Every chance the answer is yes.

Sampras was not as dominant as the ‘big-3’, but isn’t that because there was more depth of quality opposition and not because he wasn’t necessarily as good?


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Bit exaggerated on the bottom teams but I agree there were a few poor ones sitting last second last, as equality measures were not in force back then. The top clubs were mightier and the bottom ones faltered. Administrative caps were not introduced back in those days which has had a big say also in bringing everyone back to the pack. And as I have always said, you don’t win grand finals playing bottom teams, you win them playing top teams, so the real test of a grand final difficulty is the quality of your finalists, not the quality of the bottom 4.

If you think the GWS team you played in the grand final or even that Adelaide side could get within 6-10 goals of that st kilda team from the 09 grand final, or any of hawks geelong collingwood from 2011, then I think we are way too far apart to bother with much else.

 

[Purple Suit]

its a good discussion to have, i am just a bit over the back and forth with someone who doesn't grasb very basics and alot of posters struggle with. But i am happy to chat with yourself or others about it.

it is alot to analyse and i don't have the time nor effort to do it at the moment, but from a quick glance over there is not an increase in nationally drafted players since the introduction of 2 new sides, in fact a decrease is seen but it does fluctuate. So what is going to happen when you have 18 teams sharing the same amount of top prospects from the national draft instead of 16?? you will get a diluted more spread out pool, which is exactly what we have seen. Throw in ontop of that the equality measures which have stopped rich clubs spending excess on innovation and more staffing, and you have a lower but more even standard across the board... which is exactly what you have gotten of the past 5 or so years.

I don't doubt it is a good look for the game having so many nailbiters and eveness across the competition, but it does not provide better standard top 4 teams fighting come finals.

would you like to post the top 4 sides from 2011 or 2009 and compare them to the top 4 teams from 2019 or even 2022? i don't think it will even come close the comparisons.

Less drafted is because clubs aren’t turning over as many players. They develop only the top 50 on average between 18 teams & give those select few a chance. The guns are also kept longer due to advances in science and Geelong land sales.

How is this diluting the talent? It’s distilling only the best for a stronger competition. Dilution would be drafting an ever expanding 70-100 players every season & letting weaker players get on lists.

 

[Falcon3518]

Yep, you guys are old and unlike Geelong, you did not recruit two gun forwards (Cameron & Stengle) to fall back on if the midfield is getting beaten.

Brisbane had no Hipwood for a quarter of the season. He returned from an ACL and improved as the season progressed. He will take another step forward in 2023.
Dunkley is a contested ball magnet. Allows Zorko to fade away into the sunset.
They will have nine players aged between 24-27, the sweet spot when competing for a premiership.
They just beat Richmond as underdogs in this years elimination final and went on to play in a prelim.

Brisbane is older than us moron and we hopefully get a fully fit Dusty back. No need to import forwards as we were the no1 scoring side in H&A. Like do you actually think before you say crap. They barely beat us at there home deck with an underdone Dusty coming back from a hammy. Cumberland also averaged more goals than Stengle, Bolton & Gibcus will take another step and MRJ was rated the number one pressure player in the comp and didn’t play the full season.




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[Falcon3518]

Bit exaggerated on the bottom teams but I agree there were a few poor ones sitting last second last, as equality measures were not in force back then. The top clubs were mightier and the bottom ones faltered. Administrative caps were not introduced back in those days which has had a big say also in bringing everyone back to the pack. And as I have always said, you don’t win grand finals playing bottom teams, you win them playing top teams, so the real test of a grand final difficulty is the quality of your finalists, not the quality of the bottom 4.

If you think the GWS team you played in the grand final or even that Adelaide side could get within 6-10 goals of that st kilda team from the 09 grand final, or any of hawks geelong collingwood from 2011, then I think we are way too far apart to bother with much else.

The top 4 teams seemed mightier cause they beat up on everybody else and got free wins against the lesser club, like 100+ point smashings. Nowadays bottom half clubs cause upsets very often and you hardly see those margins. Nothing is a given. That’s when you know the comp is stronger. There are better teams in it, not just 2-3 in 09/10.

I think there was one team in history that went undefeated. Maybe it was in the 50’a I can’t remember exactly. You saying that’s the strongest even comp better than St Kilda 20-2 team?


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