Who will be better in 2023 Richmond or Brisbane?

[Fadge]

Yeah some see really important actions by superstars as ‘lucky’. I see it as seizing the moment.

Was Scarlett ‘lucky’ with his toe tap? Or did the Saints player hesitate?

Or your mate Dusty burning off his opponent in the second quarter with that dribble kick goal from 60? Or did the Geelong defense not communicate?

Or McGovern taking that intercept mark, leading to the Sheed goal? Or was that just DeGoey deciding not to contest and instead hang out the back for the cheapie that never came?

All lucky? Or Classy?

Not saying these teams didn’t deserve to be there. But the one thing that defines champion teams is the ability for someone in that team to stand up and define the game at the most important time.

Milne mis-read that bounce to seal the GF. But he didn’t make the play.

Nick Riewoldt the week after was mown down in the goal square and this action set the tone for the rest of the match.

Both excellent players, and in Riewoldts case, a champion. But both had their moment to stamp a grand final. And missed it.

St Kilda had THREE chances to find that player. They had their moments as you say, but they didn’t step up in there.

Great team when it wasn’t a match with everything on the line though. I think we both agree on that.

This is all absolute rubbish and hindsight heroism.

It is so easy to pick out a single play and declare that as a 'defining moment' - champion steps up and would be champion doesn't.

De Goey had a pretty handy Grand Final in 2018. Collingwood win and we could potentially be referring to his goal early in the last as the defining moment.

Umpire pays the free to Maynard, and we never hear about McGovern intercept mark again.

Hayes and Goddard in the 2010 Grand Final played two of the most epic games from individuals you will ever see. I'd go as far as saying Goddard's performance in that game goes down with Voss in 2002 as the unluckiest players not to have won Norm Smith Medals.

 

[Rich01]

Yes, they had a slightly down year but to refer to a side as a s**t side given their performances immediately pre and post that season is just plain wrong.

And don't compare them to Richmond 2021. Richmond haven't won a final since 2020. Hawthorn went on to win 3 more flags.

You are judging a side based on their performances on any other year, except for the year we are debating.

The hawthorn side was below average that year.
8 teams didnt get exponentially better while they held steady from the year before. They had a bad year.

Anyway, I’m not sure why you are so passionate about defending the performance of a team from 2009 that isn’t yours, that finished ninth.
In a thread about Richmond and Brisbanes 2023 prospects.

Although you are a known Richmond troll, so I do have an inkling why you are treading this obscure path.

 

[Fadge]

Ok so Richmond 2016 were clearly way better than Richmond 2021 going by that criteria.

But like all Fagic(Fadge Logic)…..

What the F are you on about?

 

[Fadge]

You are judging a side based on their performances on any other year, except for the year we are debating.

The hawthorn side was below average that year.
8 teams didnt get exponentially better while they held steady from the year before. They had a bad year.

Anyway, I’m not sure why you are so passionate about defending the performance of a team from 2009 that isn’t yours, that finished ninth.
In a thread about Richmond and Brisbanes 2023 prospects.

Although you are a known Richmond troll, so I do have an inkling why you are treading this obscure path.

I am simply going with the flow of the thread, responding to a comment that the bottom 9 in 2009 were all terrible, which referenced a team who had won a flag the year prior, and played finals in each of the following 7 seasons, netting a further 3 flags.

 

[Rich01]

This is all absolute rubbish and hindsight heroism.

It is so easy to pick out a single play and declare that as a 'defining moment' - champion steps up and would be champion doesn't.

De Goey had a pretty handy Grand Final in 2018. Collingwood win and we could potentially be referring to his goal early in the last as the defining moment.

Umpire pays the free to Maynard, and we never hear about McGovern intercept mark again.

DeGoey chose the option that would have made him look the hero. It was the easy option, and the wrong one. No need to mention any umpires decision less than a minute later if he had have had the composure to do the right thing, and the team thing. All they needed was a contest.
Critical moment, match defining play. McGovern lifted and took the opportunity. DeGoey didn’t.

 

[Rich01]

I am simply going with the flow of the thread, responding to a comment that the bottom 9 in 2009 were all terrible, which referenced a team who had won a flag the year prior, and played finals in each of the following 7 seasons, netting a further 3 flags.

Fair enough mate. So your 44 other posts are obviously steered toward the topic of Richmond vs Brisbane 2023 comparison eh?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

What the F are you on about?

You argument for why Hawks 2009 are better than Richmond 2021 is that Hawks went on to win 3 flags starting 4 years later. Richmond 2021 haven’t even arrived at 4 years later yet. But Richmond 2016 went on to win 3 flags starting 1 year later. So Richmond 2016 must have been a hell of a team according to your logic. Yet they won less matches than Richmond 2021, who you say cannot be compared to Hawks 2009….and around and around the fagic goes.

 

[Fadge]

Fair enough mate. So your 44 other posts are obviously steered toward the topic of Richmond vs Brisbane 2023 comparison eh?

Many of them are, yes.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Fair enough mate. So your 44 other posts are obviously steered toward the topic of Richmond vs Brisbane 2023 comparison eh?

Don’t worry, soon Fadge will no doubt kindly explain why it is much better to support a club that has won one Grand Final in 64 years than a club that has won 8 Grand Finals in the last 57 years. And why Bulldogs 09-10 were a better team than Richmond 2017-20. Dead set spud analyst.

 

[Fadge]

You argument for why Hawks 2009 are better than Richmond 2021 is that Hawks went on to win 3 flags starting 4 years later. Richmond 2021 haven’t even arrived at 4 years later yet. But Richmond 2016 went on to win 3 flags starting 1 year later. So Richmond 2016 must have been a hell of a team according to your logic. Yet they won less matches than Richmond 2021, who you say cannot be compared to Hawks 2009….and around and around the fagic goes.

Where is Richmond's flag preceding 2016 to make it a valid comparison to Hawthorn 2009?

Not sure it's my logic that's up the pooper, old boy...

 

[Falcon3518]

What the F are you on about?

Because we went on to win 3 flags like you said with the hawks man


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Where is Richmond's flag preceding 2016 to make it a valid comparison to Hawthorn 2009?

Not sure it's my logic that's up the pooper, old boy...

Funny, you didn’t mention that in the earlier post. But now that you have….so preceding flags now add to the merit of a team do they? So Richmond 2021 had 3 flags in the preceding 4 years including B2B immediately prior. Hawthorn 09 had 1 flag in the preceding 17 years.

You are jumping around all over the place Vadge.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Hipwood and Daniher are both better as tall forward flankers more than they are stay at home forwards. Their physical attributes and strengths lend better to them being used up the ground.

If anything, the issue with Hipwood, Daniher and McStay is that they were all more comfortable working up the ground, and none of them are particularly comfortable being isolated inside 50 as the main target (but inevitably one of them had to).

If anything Gunston being more of a leading inside 50 target is a major way he's an improvement structure wise over McStay.

I find that odd that you say daniher is more comfortable up the ground as some weeks literally every single kick he has is a shot on goal (5 kicks 5 scoring shots, 6 kicks 6 shots on goal) which wouldn’t suggest someone who gets on his bike up the ground setting up a lot? I thought hipwood attempted that more but I might be mistaken. When daniher gets a run and jump at the footy he is upmost unstoppable.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yeah some see really important actions by superstars as ‘lucky’. I see it as seizing the moment.

Was Scarlett ‘lucky’ with his toe tap? Or did the Saints player hesitate?

Or your mate Dusty burning off his opponent in the second quarter with that dribble kick goal from 60? Or did the Geelong defense not communicate?

Or McGovern taking that intercept mark, leading to the Sheed goal? Or was that just DeGoey deciding not to contest and instead hang out the back for the cheapie that never came?

All lucky? Or Classy?

Not saying these teams didn’t deserve to be there. But the one thing that defines champion teams is the ability for someone in that team to stand up and define the game at the most important time.

Milne mis-read that bounce to seal the GF. But he didn’t make the play.

Nick Riewoldt the week after was mown down in the goal square and this action set the tone for the rest of the match.

Both excellent players, and in Riewoldts case, a champion. But both had their moment to stamp a grand final. And missed it.

St Kilda had THREE chances to find that player. They had their moments as you say, but they didn’t step up in there.

Great team when it wasn’t a match with everything on the line though. I think we both agree on that.

I think the simple thing that we are fundamentally apart on quite a way is some belief that every grand finalist opponent and winner is of equal caliber and you talk in terms of seizing moments like a soap opera. Sorry but I don’t buy any of that. You can enjoy your own narrative but I think that st kilda side was the best side to ever not win a premiership I have seen in the history of AFL. I think they lost only because they played geelong and collingwood who were both champion level teams. I don’t think the caliber of the teams Richmond played in grand finals was very good at all ( I am being extremely honest ). Do we actually know if you would have knocked off a better opponent those years?? Well we will never know as you didn’t play a 20-2 side in a grand final or a rampaging dominant teams who almost went undefeated. You played whoever showed up on the day and did a good job. There is not much else that team could have done. I rate Richmond better than other premiership sides, I just have them below a few due to quality of opposition standing in their way.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

This is getting good GC. Home ground advantage thought previously to be worth around 1-2 goals at best and less in finals is now somehow worth about 7 goals according to you.

And St Kilda who won zero Grand Finals and Collingwood who won zero Grand Finals are 9.5 out of 10 teams where triple Premiership Richmond are a 7.5 out of 10 team. Ah, but triple Premiership Geelong are a 10 out of 10 team.

Meteoric, I can’t dumb it down any further. I honestly think you don’t even get what I am saying and seem to be going off on odd rants. I don’t even know where to go with this. Perhaps it’s best to let it slide to the keeper mate.

 

[Do the Dew]

Laughably as usual you are presenting this as if Hawthorn stayed at the same level all those seasons and only the level of the competition around them altered. St Kilda won an abnormal amount of home and away games for a top 4 team in one season only, 2009. And part of the reason they did that is because teams like Hawthorn dropped away in that season for various reasons. There are no doubt other reasons including that the Saints struck a decent vein of form. But they clearly were not that good a team in historical terms. They did not win a Grand Final and indeed did not make a Grand Final outside of a 2 year window. They won the following amount of home and away games per season:

2008 - 13

2009 - 20

2010 - 15

2011 - 12

I wonder which year is the outlier there? Only as fool would seek to define any team or player by an outlier achievement, other than to say this is what was possible when everything fell their way, including some key opposition teams dropping away. St Kilda averaged 15 home and away wins during their 4 years in the finals which takes into account all the peaks and troughs that all teams including them had at the time. The Geelong team Richmond donkey-licked 3 times in finals 2017-2020 averaged more or less the same when you adjust for the shortened 2020 season. And in the 3 years Richmond gave Geelong a wedgy and squashed their sandwiches the Cats won no less than the “great” Saints average of 15 wins. The Cats percentages were 137, 136, 132, 117 in this 4 year phase. The Saints percentages were 111, 156, 122, 113. In other words, on average, Geelong 2017-2020 performed better than St Kilda 2008-2011 during the home and away season. Richmond smashed that Geelong team three times but you say Richmond wouldn’t have got near the Saints of that era because super team.

You are asking us to suspend normal reason for a moment and imagine this team that was below average for a top 4 team in the 3 surrounding seasons was suddenly a super team in one single season and only that season and that the competition falling away in that season played no part in that.

You are embarrassing your side of the debate with these foolish arguments Fadge.

You talking about Dan's premiership tier list with the 2000 bombers as #1?

 

[BF Tiger]

It’s not rocket science, I am saying Richmond beat average teams in the finals, nothing impressive. St kilda just ran into two juggernauts and got unlucky. I will try to dumb it down a bit for you.

Richmond (7.5/10) Vs Adelaide (7/10). MCG factor kicks in a bit to create the larger margin.

St kilda (9.5/10) vs geelong (10/10) and collingwood (9.5/10). One loss by a toe poke the other a draw then a loss week after.

Talent observation standard in brackets.

Not sure how much more I can simplify it.

I’ll dumb it down for you.

Richmond
St Kilda

 

[Falcon3518]

I think the simple thing that we are fundamentally apart on quite a way is some belief that every grand finalist opponent and winner is of equal caliber and you talk in terms of seizing moments like a soap opera. Sorry but I don’t buy any of that. You can enjoy your own narrative but I think that st kilda side was the best side to ever not win a premiership I have seen in the history of AFL. I think they lost only because they played geelong and collingwood who were both champion level teams. I don’t think the caliber of the teams Richmond played in grand finals was very good at all ( I am being extremely honest ). Do we actually know if you would have knocked off a better opponent those years?? Well we will never know as you didn’t play a 20-2 side in a grand final or a rampaging dominant teams who almost went undefeated. You played whoever showed up on the day and did a good job. There is not much else that team could have done. I rate Richmond better than other premiership sides, I just have them below a few due to quality of opposition standing in their way.

Can’t believe you think a team that got thumped by 50+ can beat us. But you think Dal Santo should be in the HOF so I’m not surprised. You don’t need to pump up the opposition you played to make Geelong 07-11 look better, having 3 flags should already do that for you. Reeks of insecurity.

We also beat an approx 18-4 side at their home deck (adjusted for Covid they went 14-3), we also went 18-4 ourselves in 2018. Even using your flawed H&A measurement the difference is minimal.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[JasRulz63]

I find that odd that you say daniher is more comfortable up the ground as some weeks literally every single kick he has is a shot on goal (5 kicks 5 scoring shots, 6 kicks 6 shots on goal) which wouldn’t suggest someone who gets on his bike up the ground setting up a lot? I thought hipwood attempted that more but I might be mistaken. When daniher gets a run and jump at the footy he is upmost unstoppable.

This is his heat map data as well as Jeremy Cameron's.

Daniher:


Jeremy Cameron:


Source: AFL Player Heat Maps - DFS Australia

They're not that dissimilar, especially if you were to compare it to Tom Hawkins's who gets 50-90% of his possessions inside forward 50.

Tom Hawkins:

 

[Grrr]

is this meant to be a counterargument

Well it's a pretty outrageous statement that he butchers the ball as often as you say, given that you are pretty much the only one saying it. Maybe he might turn it over occasionally, Dustin Martin is one of Richmond's highest butchers (clangers/turnovers) of the ball as well, but to define him as a player by that is pretty shallow.

No.2 in the national draft, B&F winner, good enough for Richmond recruiters to give draft pics up pick 12 & 19 for, one of GWS's better players, so yeah it is an argument.

 

[Grrr]

Honest question (without trying to troll honestly) why do SOME not all, but a vocal minority of Richmond supporters seem to take it personally that some posters rate other clubs chances going into season 2023 (and maybe beyond) than The Tigers.

I was wrong about Geelong going into 2022 (honestly thought their flag window was shut) and I could be very wrong about Richmond in 2023, I just don't believe they have enough speedy midfielders and forward line punch any more to be a serious flag threat, plus I am still yet to be convinced they have an strong enough backline at this stage.

On the plus side, they are getting games into some very quality kids, and I do not believe the Tigers will fall off as dramatically as the likes of Hawthorn and Brisbane after their flag dynastys.

I feel like the are following the Swans template of a semi rebuild, and that is not a bad thing.

Well in general most Richmond supporters think that Brisbane did very well and should be thereabouts late September. But like the Premierships we have won, there is always an excuse. Quality of the AFL has gone down. Covid seasons. Home ground advantage. It has been constant for years.

Richmond were not even as good as St.Kilda in this thread which gets a bit of flak back and so it should. Now we have posters saying that Taranto is a hack and that we will be lucky to make the finals. We really should have beaten Brisbane last year, a bees dick in it, yet we have to justify ourselves again, even though we have addressed our greatest weakness and picked up 2 very good players in the midfield, not to mention a fully fit and raring to go Dustin Martin.

Yeah we have a noisy minority, it's a footy forum, adds a bit of flavour.

 

[Falcon3518]

Meteoric, I can’t dumb it down any further. I honestly think you don’t even get what I am saying and seem to be going off on odd rants. I don’t even know where to go with this. Perhaps it’s best to let it slide to the keeper mate.

Ok let’s end this discussion here:

Best team ever if using H&A bombers 2000 (Happy cause Hardwick was in the team) and that undefeated 50s team or whatever.

If using a dynasty period:

Cats 07-11 is 9th/10th with only 3 in 5.

St Kilda has fallen off into the abyss.

So whatever metric you use Cats 07-11 will never be considered the best. In fact they will eventually be considered the worst 21st century dynasty team cause the record books will not show a b2b. Enjoy while you can cause your days are numbered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Fadge]

Terrible bottom 9 in 2009?

Let's start with the team who finished 9th, Hawthorn.

Premiers in 2008 and went on to play in finals between 2010 and 2016, including 4 grand finals and 3 premierships.

FMD.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you can't see that a team who goes 1st, 9th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st and 5th is a pretty handy team, I can't help you...

Meteoric Rise - your claim I hadn't referenced Hawthorn's 2008 flag in my previous post/s... maybe I should have made it clearer for those amongst us with significant comprehension challenges?

Actually, I really couldn't have made it any clearer...

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Ok let’s end this discussion here:

Best team ever if using H&A bombers 2000 (Happy cause Hardwick was in the team) and that undefeated 50s team or whatever.

If using a dynasty period:

Cats 07-11 is 9th/10th with only 3 in 5.

St Kilda has fallen off into the abyss.

So whatever metric you use Cats 07-11 will never be considered the best. In fact they will eventually be considered the worst 21st century dynasty team cause the record books will not show a b2b. Enjoy while you can cause your days are numbered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Comprehensive, undisputable analysis. I particularly like "..and that undefeated 50s team or whatever".

 

[Rich01]

I think the simple thing that we are fundamentally apart on quite a way is some belief that every grand finalist opponent and winner is of equal caliber and you talk in terms of seizing moments like a soap opera. Sorry but I don’t buy any of that. You can enjoy your own narrative but I think that st kilda side was the best side to ever not win a premiership I have seen in the history of AFL. I think they lost only because they played geelong and collingwood who were both champion level teams. I don’t think the caliber of the teams Richmond played in grand finals was very good at all ( I am being extremely honest ). Do we actually know if you would have knocked off a better opponent those years?? Well we will never know as you didn’t play a 20-2 side in a grand final or a rampaging dominant teams who almost went undefeated. You played whoever showed up on the day and did a good job. There is not much else that team could have done. I rate Richmond better than other premiership sides, I just have them below a few due to quality of opposition standing in their way.

Yeah that’s fair enough.
I don’t believe you can compare St Kilda on the back of their home and way performances and ‘good’ finals performances. And not being able to step up and show composure in big games.

That’s really where we differ. It’s a hypothetical argument that can never be proven, so that’s the beauty of an opinion based forum.

I’m glad you are so passionate about Richmond by providing copious insight into your views on which teams from the past would have beaten our champion teams. I’m obsessed about my club too.