Banter Who will be Better in 2025, Collingwood or Carlton? Part 4

[WalshistheGOAT]

When your team belts another team by 10+ goals there ain't a "match winner".

A match winner is someone who is good all game and then imposes himself in Q4 to win close games for his team. They step up with big plays, dominate the ball, kicks the crucial goal, gives direct goal assists etc.

GAS was brilliant in the 89 GF, but he wasn't the match winner.

No that's your definition. I simply have a different one to you.

 

[doppleganger]

Cripps playing four quarters of high quality football is why a lot of the games go from being a tossup or loss to a more comfortable Carlton win. That in my eyes is still being a match winner. Turning it on in just one quarter in a close game doesn't make the performance more that of a matchwinner at all.

Cripps having a big game in a 10+ goal belting of a hapless Richmond ain't a match winning performance. Take him out and Carlton would still win comfortably.

You previously used team record and players ratings which makes no sense. A lot of Cripps' best games came when Carlton were not a good team. If you swap Cripps for any of those other players and had them give a similar performance Carlton were still not going to win that game.

Yeah, my fav Cripps game was 2022 Rd23. Another one of Cripps big games but wasn't the match winner.

The match winner was Jamie Elliott (again) who held his nerve with 2 Q4 goals to give the Pies the lead, and ultimately the win.

Did Cripps have a better game than Elliott, of course. But Billy was the match winner

 

[Arr0w]

When your team belts another team by 10+ goals there ain't a "match winner".

A match winner is someone who is good all game and then imposes himself in Q4 to win close games for his team. They step up with big plays, dominate the ball, kicks the crucial goal, gives direct goal assists etc.

GAS was brilliant in the 89 GF, but he wasn't the match winner.

So if the Cats got up (where one or more of his teammates had better output) his game would have then been judged as "match winning"?

What a bizarre take

 

[doppleganger]

No that's your definition. I simply have a different one to you.

Match-winner
noun
1. a player who wins a sports match for his or her team

Your definition is just who was BOG.

You can be BOG and not win the match, so not the match-winner.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Match-winner
noun
1. a player who wins a sports match for his or her team

Your definition is just who was BOG.

You can be BOG and not win the match, so not the match-winner.

Yes... A match winner is simply someone who wins a sports match for their team... Doesn't matter if it was in the first quarter or the last. They perform exceptionally in a win = they were a match winner

Which goes back to my list, Cripps was either brilliant or clear BOG in all the games I listed in the list of 20 games.

I could have easily added 20 more if I were counting his BOG performances in a losing side.

 

[doppleganger]

Yes... A match winner is simply someone who wins a sports match for their team...

Yep, a direct influence when game is on the line.

Cripps was either brilliant or clear BOG in all the games I listed in the list of 20 games.

Yeah, we get that you don't understand the difference between being BOG and a match-winner.

I could have easily added 20 more if I were counting his BOG performances in a losing side.

Yep, even more examples of Cripps not being match winner.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

It's honestly getting hard to tell which one is the dumbest

 

[doppleganger]

It's honestly getting hard to tell which one is the dumbest

Agree. Anyone who thinks a "match-winner" can be from a losing team is a bit of a battler.

Closely followed by those who don't understand that being best on ground is different to being a match-winner.

 

[Arr0w]

It's honestly getting hard to tell which one is the dumbest

Or trolling, but probably both

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Agree. Anyone who thinks a "match-winner" can be from a losing team is a bit of a battler.

Closely followed by those who don't understand that being best on ground is different to being a match-winner.

When have I said a match winner can be from a losing team?

I said the statement that Cripps isn't a match winner because some of his best ever games were in losses was ridiculous. I then used GAS as an example, one of his best performances came in a losing grand final... But he is still widely remembered as one of the most dominant players of all time and absolutely a match winner. Nothing to do with him being a match winner in the grand final he lost.

I know Pies fans are generally renowned for being lobotomized cookers but you lot are really sinking to new lows with this one.

2x Brownlow medallist not a match winner absolute clowns.

 

[Worm4]

How many clutch contested marks amongst those match winning games ?

 

[Carringbush2010]

This should be fun

Also wondering what the probability is, of a current living pie supporter being around for more than 8 flags

Who cares?

Ultimately when it's down to who is the best over the course of the competition, and that'd be us right now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Like a 5 year deal to JDG in 2022?

Yeah we got a flag out of that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Pies signed Dayne Beams to paint, great contract that one

Jack Crisp says hi.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Anyway, theres no point arguing with someone who dismisses facts. Worst analyst on BigFooty.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I find it cute that blose fans hang on to some time line to support their narrative 'we've been better than you over this certain period, 8 flags to 3'

What they don't admit, understand, concede, is that Collingwoood is the best club in the competition over the course of it's history.

FACT!

This thread is banter between two bitter rival clubs, blose fans you can have your 8-3 or whatever time line you pick, it's cute, you cling onto that, fact of the matter is we're kings of the comp, undisputed.

Oh and I can post up the averages again, but I don't think blose fans will like it or any oppo fans will, again.

Back to the thread topic, we've gone all in for a flag tilt, good chance, the blose have a superior list to most including ours, also a good chance. Don't need to mention that the Pies have won many flags without the best list, system beats talent every time. Over to you Vossy and the blose FD, can you beat the belief?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Had the pleasure of driving though collingwood yesterday. Show some pride in your suburb FFS and clean yourself up. It's makes Heidelberg West appear like toorak.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I remember I was sitting the the MCC for Collingwood vs Richmond and JDG was getting a hold of Dylan Grimes. You could see his skin going red with rage. I reckon JDG was kryptonite to that era of Richmond for whatever reason.

Off topic, but I reckon JDG has wasted his talent. Even with flag.

IMHO, this guy has all the attributes to be GOAT, has flashes of this brilliance, and some compare him to Dusty, right now he ain't Dusty's boot lace, as good as he has been.

I don't think there's ceiling with this player, I really don't, to this day I don't think he's anywhere near potential, at all.

I've had a lot of Pie fans disagree with me on this, but I'm staying phat, he could be GOAT, I don't think that'll happen though.

Potential to reach it? Yes, will he? Not sure, unlikely.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Are there any Collingwood players to have won 3 flags since WWII?

There's that timeline again.

 

[Fadge]

This is the stupidest argument around. GAS played one of the greatest grand finals ever seen and his team lost... That doesn't take away from the individual players performance lmao.

Was this campaigner a 'matchwinner'?



Known as possibly the greatest of all time yet never managed to win a flag because his team was always a bit too shite while he was out there dominating week in and week out.

And he also had plenty of matchwinning performances.

But it's hard to include a game as a matchwinning performance if your team doesn't win the match (your example of the 1989 Grand Final).

 

[Fadge]

Ask yourself a question.

Would anyone list 89 GF as a game as an example of a game where GAS was the match winner?

To the 'reasonable person', the answer would be an obvious 'no'.

But the Carlton folk are a special breed. And quite desperate.

'Dusty the matchwinner in the 2019 Grand Final' (in the world according to Carlton supporters)...

I also remember Ben Cousins being a 'matchwinner' (by Carlton supporters' definition) in a game against Collingwood in the early 2000's - a game that his team lost by 15 goals...

 

[Fadge]

When your team belts another team by 10+ goals there ain't a "match winner".

A match winner is someone who is good all game and then imposes himself in Q4 to win close games for his team. They step up with big plays, dominate the ball, kicks the crucial goal, gives direct goal assists etc.

GAS was brilliant in the 89 GF, but he wasn't the match winner.

So apparently you can now be a 'matchwinner' in a game that your team doesn't win.

And you can also be a 'matchwinner' in a game that your team controls from start to finish, the best handful of players on the ground are from your team, and you win the match by 10 or 15 goals....

Oh my.

 

[Fadge]

Based on what appears to be your criteria I could easily make the argument all 20 fit the bill

What an absolute crock.

Notice I've excluded games where there margin was considerable?

 

[Cyclops]

Blues need to lift their games here.

"Cripps is a matchwinner" ->pitiful career win loss ratio.

"Collingwood is living in the past" -> relentlessly references the period 1963-1995, ynable contemplate the 21st century.

"Carlton were better in 2024"-> 0-2 and less wins.

Cmon boys banter has to be two sided.

Here's some weapons for you, easy wins with no comeback:

Curnow's hair>Moore's hair.
Voss was a better player than McCrae.
Carlton won more VFA flags, and "Champion of the Colony" titles (that one stings).
John Elliot never did gaol tine despite having a character that makes Saul Goodman look like Raoul Wallenberg .
John Nichols stole less than Des Tuddenham (although IIRC he did more gaol time, so word that one carefully).

 

[Arr0w]

Who cares?

Ultimately when it's down to who is the best over the course of the competition, and that'd be us right now.

Just playing the timeline game, like your mates

Yeah we got a flag out of that.

So it's a sound workable strategy

Jack Crisp says hi.

Not part of that deal

There's that timeline again.

It's a fun game that everyone plays