Opinion Who will be our next head coach?

[Saintbloke]

I'd like to point out to anyone who would compare Ratten being appointed to Shaw and Teague, completely different.

Ratten was respected as a head coach at Carlton before being shafted (yes shafted, not proven unfit for the position eg. Voss, Hird, Watters, Neeld.) In what panned out to be a huge mistake for CFC.

It was always questioned when he would return to the role, and it was probably only his personal life balance that kept him so long.
He's been one of the most eligible candidates for the last 6 years.

As well speculated by us, he most likely came to st.kilda knowing the top job would be available in the next year. And we touted him as richos successor then.

Teague has a good coaching history at lower levels but let's be honest he's not in the same class as Ratten, he was a long shot for a job, so far as Juddy saying he wouldn't be offered it.
And Shaw's out of nowhere.

TLDR.
Teague, Shaw, speculative and panicked appointments.
Ratten, right man.

The mob of Carlton supporters I know didn't all rate Ratts as a top coach at the time and some of the club leadership didn't either, so who really knows. Maybe Harvey is in the pipeline.

 

[bird_man]

The mob of Carlton supporters I know didn't all rate Ratts as a top coach at the time and some of the club leadership didn't either, so who really knows. Maybe Harvey is in the pipeline.

My old man and a few of his mates are die hard Carlton. They were not happy about Ratts getting the arse and hindsight says it was a bad move.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Gary Lyon received a Deliveroo on air from Rooey this morning with a note saying "big announcement today, I'm back!"

It's got me really intrigued now. Not sure it can be a huge coaching role with is media commitments. Maybe a role om the board but I'm not a fan of that when you are that involved in the media.

Surely someone has the goss?

What time was that at?

 

[BrutThough]

Gary Lyon received a Deliveroo on air from Rooey this morning with a note saying "big announcement today, I'm back!"

It's got me really intrigued now. Not sure it can be a huge coaching role with is media commitments. Maybe a role om the board but I'm not a fan of that when you are that involved in the media.

Surely someone has the goss?

Maybe he is back to work with the forwards part time.

Dermie said he finished up with the club after rd23, but maybe Roo is going to take over that role

 

[BigPowerForward]

ratts had nothing to do with hawks winning he done his roll witch clarko had layed out in dot form clarko got thoes premiership. ratts was just a stowe away at the right time. Harvey on the other hand has built the pies just as much as Buckley

On G3226 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Did Clarko lay it out in dot form for Ratten only, or over the years did he do the same with Simpson, Beveridge and Hardwick?
The latter all appear to have learnt very little from him

 

[St Kilda Death]

The mob of Carlton supporters I know didn't all rate Ratts as a top coach at the time and some of the club leadership didn't either, so who really knows. Maybe Harvey is in the pipeline.

Supporters?
Lol there's you're problem.
I said well respected I meant by the general public and his peers.
Carlton supporters call for their coaches heads to roll everytime they lose a game

 

[Saint Shags]

Did Clarko lay it out in dot form for Ratten only, or over the years did he do the same with Simpson, Beveridge and Hardwick?
The latter all appear to have learnt very little from him

They don't count as they are not Rob Harvey and are not going for the St Kilda position.

 

[bird_man]

What time was that at?

About 8.30 I reckon

 

[Saintbloke]

Supporters?
Lol there's you're problem.
I said well respected I meant by the general public and his peers.
Carlton supporters call for their coaches heads to roll everytime they lose a game

Not like us! There's Carlton supporters and then there's Carlton supporters who get things done.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Ambassador role for Riewoldt.

 

[BangersAndMash]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/2019...wLtk2GY10z-_mbt54vBiqh0EZsuvlmj0-WwsnKmRYvbWw

 

[jwikked]

"In further positive news, long-time partner Dare Iced Coffee will remain with the Saints as a key sponsor, with details of their new arrangement to be announced in the coming weeks."

That is great news. Makes me feel less guilty for buying one every day.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

An exciting signing with a company that has similar ideals to the Saints...

Just like the club, I hear Deliveroo have plenty of salary cap room too ...... after underpaying staff for years!

Boom tish!

 

[George]

Riewoldt is back now in an official capacity but will also help the club in a similar role to Roughead.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Ambassadorial role
❤
50 thousand members they reckon... man thatd be very very nice

 

[underthestars]

A little bit emotive, so let's break it down.

You claim "i fear the club will do what it almost always does and play safe, and after three to four years of treading water, bobbing around bottom ten, we'll appoint some other safe candidate. by then our chance with harvey will be gone", but why will he be gone, if what you say is true, that "he is also a loyal sainter who wants to coach us and only us"? As far as I know he's relatively young, and hasn't got an expiration date on him. If he misses out this time and the feedback is that we'd like to see him run the show somewhere first, I'd say if he harbours a real urge to coach us, then that's exactly what he'll do and wait for the probable sacking of Brett Ratten in the hopefully not too-immediate future. I doubt 4-8 years will spoil him.

"he is senior assistant at the biggest club in the land" - that's part of the problem, he suffers from his context in the same way that Leon Cameron does, and in fact how Brett Ratten himself does. How much of the success is down to him, and how much is down to the enormous wealth of resources at Collingwood - resources that he might not be able to count on at St Kilda?

"some don't want him for no clear reason other than either the fear he will fail and tarnish his name, or the belief that he is too quiet or won't be a good media manager? seriously? happy with ratten instead? i'd ask why?" Yes seriously. The last thing I'd want to do to either Harvey or Riewoldt is to screw with their standing at St Kilda. They are both gods. Its already bad enough that we're having to reject him for a post that eats people up and spits them out. It's like if Jesus came back to Earth and applied for a job on a building site. He may have once been a saviour, but he'd need to put on a bit of muscle and at least put some more protective workwear on - wouldn't want any more nails in those feet. I'm getting off track.

So the second part is yes he's too quiet and not a media performer, and Ratten is, two opinions that are quantifiable and provable.

Let's turn it around: you want Harvey, apart from his previous service at our club, because he's served as assistant coach since October 2011 in "the biggest club in the land" - their finishes since then:

2012 - PF
2013 - EF
2014 - 11th
2015 - 12th
2016 - 12th
2017 - 13th
2108 - GF, having given up a 31-2 lead to lose 79-74.
2019 - Finals at least.

Let's not forget his years at Carlton starting from immediately after retirement in Oct 2008:

2009 - EF
2010 - EF

Plus of course his year under Ross at St Kilda:
2011 - EF

Whereas Ratten has come directly from Hawthorn where he's served as assistant coach since October 2012 - their finishes since then:
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - SF
2017 - 12th
2108 - SF

Let's add on his years as assistant at the Demons post retirement in 2003:
2004 - EF
2005 - EF

as assistant under Denis Pagan at CFC:
2007 - 15th

and as senior coach at Carlton:

2008 - 11th
2009 - EF
2010 - EF
2011 - SF
2012 - 10th

(Couldn't find any clear details about his 2006 during my cursory search of Wikipedia)


Now, my previous argument about the context is valid here. Hawthorn were a very well oiled machine when he arrived so how much of their success is really down to him? Who knows, but you using Collingwood's success to enhance Harvey's CV can be equally applied to Ratten, and makes Ratten the better candidate.

Would Harvey take on a senior job at a VFL/SANFL club to give him that experience that would make him a desirable candidate? If not, why not? It was good enough for Alistair Clarkson to prove his mettle. Even another assistant gig at a different AFL club might make him shine a bit more.

Would he even come back here and be an assistant at St Kilda again, under Ratten again? If not, why not?

Finally to address your other points:

St Kilda playing it safe? Well not so long ago we appointed a hot shot coach who had retired and then sacked him halfway through the season and appointed his football director on zero prior AFL coaching experience. Just before that we sacked the man who took us to a grand final and replaced him with an ex star player with zero coaching experience. Our most recent coach was hired without an interview or any prior senior AFL coaching experience.

Maybe there's something to be said for playing it safe.

On Harvey: "he is a driven man who inspires and set the highest of standards" - many people have said that Harves was a quiet leader who led by example, and we've all mused previously on how well that would work when he's in the box rather than on the field.
"he is a club legend, dual brownlow medalist" - and we rightly laud him for it, but that is the past and one only has to look at James Hird, Michael Voss, Primus, etc etc to know that it's an irrelevance when assessing a coach's potential.

"surely the rewards for harvey rather than ratten far outweigh the supposedly higher risk" - do they? Do you think a Buckley premiership, should it ever eventuate, will be more cherished by the Filth than the Malthouse one? Do you think Alistair Clarkson's and Leigh Matthews' achievements at Hawthorn and Brisbane come with a little asterisk relating to the fact they never played for the club? It would be a nice story yes if one of our many individual messiahs came back to take us marching in, but at a club like ours where success has been so limited, if it can't be Barker or Baldock, I'll take a jug eared Carlton midfielder, if not to the Promised Land, than just to take us out of the deep dark Richardson Forest. Again, imagine if we'd passed Ratten up on the whim of a lovely dream of a Harvey-inspired premiership that never eventuated? We'd look like drug-crazed fools and that would about wrap us up I think.

So yeah, call us a scared, conservative club, but I think it's time to get real and start continue doing what we have to do. With respect.

a fair reply austinn, but in rewards harvey brings much more imo - the return of harves represents a change in leadership and approach. a belief in the club as an attractor AND creator of quality. memberships would rise, players would be intrigued and motivated, a new era arrives.
with ratts there is no tangible change, the club is simply doing what it has done for the past five years. there is no different feel to the club or players. business carries on.
now if you believe this a case of a successful business carrying on with least disruption then it is a good thing. if you believe we're a club in need of a change in personnel and mindset then it's a bad thing. personally i think we need the invigoration of change.
whomever we appoint only time will tell, never if it was the right decision, but whether it was a good one. hopefully it is.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

a fair reply austinn, but in rewards harvey brings much more imo - the return of harves represents a change in leadership and approach. a belief in the club as an attractor AND creator of quality. memberships would rise, players would be intrigued and motivated, a new era arrives.
with ratts there is no tangible change, the club is simply doing what it has done for the past five years. there is no different feel to the club or players. business carries on.
now if you believe this a case of a successful business carrying on with least disruption then it is a good thing. if you believe we're a club in need of a change in personnel and mindset then it's a bad thing. personally i think we need the invigoration of change.
whomever we appoint only time will tell, never if it was the right decision, but whether it was a good one. hopefully it is.

You're really big on intangibles aren't you.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

They don't count as they are not Rob Harvey and are not going for the St Kilda position.

to be fair ... he has gone half cocked dismissing Rattens cred but i think people have been as guilty of doing that a hell of a lot of Harveys ...
for all the mentions of Hardwick & Simpson there is forgoten mentions of Bolton ... also the ther point being that both hardwick and Simpson were untested un tried coaches when they got to their club and in the case of Hardwick took a long period to become good (funny enough both coaches became good coaches as the teams they were leading became good teams) ... there is a big differance between Ratten a second time coach who has previously coached for a long period without success and is coming to a club that is a long way off list wise ... the point i think im trying to make is Adam Simpson coaching Carlton prob results similar to Bolton coaching Carlton.. Bolton coaching WCE is prob close to simpson coaching WCE so while im accepting the process of the coaching selection finding Ratten the best candidate i think we all need to take a deep breath and understand Ratten is not a sure bet for improvment (no coach is) and his learnings or what ever at hawthorn under clarko are only going to be relevant to us to a certain extent ....

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Ambassadorial role
❤
50 thousand members they reckon... man thatd be very very nice

StCicatriz you tempted to come back on in 2020 ??

 

[cartwright]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/2019...wLtk2GY10z-_mbt54vBiqh0EZsuvlmj0-WwsnKmRYvbWw

"Riewoldt is determined to inspire the thousands of St Kilda supporters out there to throw their support behind the club and power the membership tally beyond 50,000. "

This is good - we've had no 'face' of the club since he retired.

 

[Bertha]

Haha, how do you know this unless you are involved in the inner sanctum at both clubs?

Clearly because he's on the internet, that's enough these days - this should be be asked of every opinion that is shared as fact on this entire forum

 

[sammm]

Ambassador role for Riewoldt.

What does that mean?

 

[Yawkey way]

I’m not bagging ratten it’s the nah sayers in relation to Harvey that annoy me.

Comparisons are sometimes difficult and at present Clarkson because of his success is the rolled gold standard. He had a brief stint as a runner at Melbourne, then an assistant with us before he took over at Werribee then on to the SANFL and back as an assistant before landing the job at hawthorn. That’s his resume not a blueprint for others to follow.

Harvey was a superstar who played much longer, he’s coached as an assistant at three clubs for what 10 odd years and is highly rated and praised in his current role at the leagues biggest club. Imagine ditching the senior assistants role at Collingwood to coach Sandringham yet that’s what he’s being asked effectively to do when posters say he needs to run his own team. To me that’s just rubbish, when Clarkson took over at Werribee it was a natural progression and the first year of a combined afl/vfl reserves comp.

Anyway Harvey should have kicked the door down to get back to the saints as an assistant, he’s well and truly qualified to take the job he obviously misread the situation and missed his chance. I expect ratten to get the job and hope he’s a 10 year coach but I would have liked to see Harvey get a chance in the job the same way many will hope that one day Lenny gets the gig.

There’s definitely some sentimentality involved and I’m sure it would have provided a boost in membership numbers and a goodwill period which I doubt ratten gets. I hope for his sake and the clubs we hit the ground running because nobody is getting 5 years like richo again.

 

[Ducky Tie]

What does that mean?

Yeah have the same query. Who knows. Hopefully some more info comes out and hopefully it's more hands on than just appearing in the membership campaign.

 

[Froffinho]

Ambassadorial role
❤
50 thousand members they reckon... man thatd be very very nice

Whatever the membership count was last year, can add one more to 2020. My son was born a month ago!