Analysis Whole of Club issue - not one single factor to the Crows demise

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Elite Crow

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30k Posts 10k Posts TheBrownDog
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your talking about hindsight.

Freo were copped flak for years for choosing a Skinny victorian flanker in Jayden Pitt over WA forward in Jack Darling in 2010.

Actually looking back, that 2010 draft wasnt too bad, Suns had 9 of the 1st 15 picks and but wasted most of them.

Then you look at what the Eagles got in that 2010 draft....

Pick 4: Andrew Gaff,

Pick 26: Jack Darling

Pick 29: Scott Lycett

Jeremy McGovern was a rookie pick.

All 4 players would be in Gold Coasts starting 18
Would be there top 4 players
 
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your talking about hindsight.

Freo were copped flak for years for choosing a Skinny victorian flanker in Jayden Pitt over WA forward in Jack Darling in 2010.

Actually looking back, that 2010 draft wasnt too bad, Suns had 9 of the 1st 15 picks and but wasted most of them.

Then you look at what the Eagles got in that 2010 draft....

Pick 4: Andrew Gaff,

Pick 26: Jack Darling

Pick 29: Scott Lycett

Jeremy McGovern was a rookie pick.

All 4 players would be in Gold Coasts starting 18
No
I'm talking about my personal ratings at the time re Berry vs Gallucci and McPherson vs Worpel, no hindsight involved.....I'm on the record......though I wasn't disappointed at all when we took McPherson who I did certainly rate.
 
May 3, 2007
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Would be there top 4 players
Just shows you you can have a lot of early picks but if you dont have the right recruitng and developing staff, It means nothing.

Suns will be in their 10th season and still no finals.

As badly run as freo were in the Early years, they eventually made finals in their 9th year in 2003.
 

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Sorry, but that is not a great reflection on the culture of your club if most of your fans feel that way.
I disagree. You need to see the whole picture to take a full look of the situation.

If from 2020-2039, we are talking about the next 20 years here. Freo makes finals 10 times out of 20 years and wins 1 flag from 1 or possibly 2 grand finals, then its a very good achievement.

You need to understand and look at the League: 18 teams and 8 finals spots each year. Thats less than 50 percent chance of making finals.

If the league hits 20 teams and 8 finals spots each year, If you make finals 4 times out every 10 years, you are not overachieving or underachieving, you care on par with the middle sides.


Saying that. Freo making finals only 3 times between 1995-2010, is mediocre. Thats a finals 8 system with 16 sides and thats a 50% chance of making finals each year.

3 years of making finals out of 16 years is not acceptable. had we made it 8 times out of 16 at least you could say you made finals in half of your existence.
 

BronCrow

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I disagree. You need to see the whole picture to take a full look of the situation.

If from 2020-2039, we are talking about the next 20 years here. Freo makes finals 10 times out of 20 years and wins 1 flag from 1 or possibly 2 grand finals, then its a very good achievement.

You need to understand and look at the League: 18 teams and 8 finals spots each year. Thats less than 50 percent chance of making finals.

If the league hits 20 teams and 8 finals spots each year, If you make finals 4 times out every 10 years, you are not overachieving or underachieving, you care on par with the middle sides.


Saying that. Freo making finals only 3 times between 1995-2010, is mediocre. Thats a finals 8 system with 16 sides and thats a 50% chance of making finals each year.

3 years of making finals out of 16 years is not acceptable. had we made it 8 times out of 16 at least you could say you made finals in half of your existence.
How can option B be better than option A. Whilst you may make finals less frequently, you win flags. Every set of supporters would take that. Do you honestly think Richmond supporters wish that they were more like Fremantle than there own side in the last 20 years?

Hell, in the last 15 years, Freo's top 8 record is probably as good as your neighbours. Do you think they envy your record?

Your comments suggest that near enough is good enough. Which is what most other supporters think of Fremantle. Sadly it is summing us up as well.
 
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Just watching the 2013 showdown. Although we lost Mitch Grigg came on for Jarrod Lyon. Had a great quarter. What did we do badly as a club with him. Got delisted and went on to win 2 Margery Medals. Was it lack of time on the ground. Same game Hendo looked very good. Always rated him.
 

hey shorty

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Just watching the 2013 showdown. Although we lost Mitch Grigg came on for Jarrod Lyon. Had a great quarter. What did we do badly as a club with him. Got delisted and went on to win 2 Margery Medals. Was it lack of time on the ground. Same game Hendo looked very good. Always rated him.
He was an average footballer at the level. Good kick, but not much else.

Came on as a sub a lot when the game slowed down for him.
 
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How can option B be better than option A. Whilst you may make finals less frequently, you win flags. Every set of supporters would take that. Do you honestly think Richmond supporters wish that they were more like Fremantle than there own side in the last 20 years?

Hell, in the last 15 years, Freo's top 8 record is probably as good as your neighbours. Do you think they envy your record?

Your comments suggest that near enough is good enough. Which is what most other supporters think of Fremantle. Sadly it is summing us up as well.
Ironic coming from your view as a crows fan.

Option A was really tempting. But the thing is, you are a crows supporter. Your team has always been a competitive side. The corws have never went through a 10 year period without finals like the Demons did from 2007-2017. Hell the crows havent been had a 5 year period without finals like port did from 2008-12.

Freos finals record under Ross Lyon wasnt bad from 2012-15: 9 finals, 4 finals wins 5 defeats.

I mean go ask yourself with question, would you rather have a Neil Craig finals run again of 2005-2009 or the Bulldogs run of 3 prelims under Rodney eade of 2008-10? Both teams in those eras had the exact same finals record: 9 finals, 3 wins 6 defeats.


So Basically what your saying is..... When your team won Flags in 1997-98, are you willing to spend 18-20 years in a row with no finals?

Are you willing to cling on to those 1997-98 flags and you dont make any finals until that 2017 grand final? Thats what your willing to accept.


You also mentioned freos finals record in the last 15 years compared to west coast. Is it compareable? Deabateable.

If we are comparing both teams from say from 2005-19.....

Dockers made a prelim in 2006, finals in 2010 and finals in 2012-15.

West coast made top 4 in 2005-7, Grand finals in 2005-6, finals in 2011-12 which icludes a prelim in 2011 then finals in 2015-19 which includes a grand final in 2015 and 2018.
 

BronCrow

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He was an average footballer at the level. Good kick, but not much else.

Came on as a sub a lot when the game slowed down for him.
You are not going to tell me that Mackay is a better player than Grigg. There are players that were worse than Mitch Grigg who had far greater careers. Not just at our club.
 
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Just watching the 2013 showdown. Although we lost Mitch Grigg came on for Jarrod Lyon. Had a great quarter. What did we do badly as a club with him. Got delisted and went on to win 2 Margery Medals. Was it lack of time on the ground. Same game Hendo looked very good. Always rated him.
totally random here.....

Since you mentioned showdown....

I am watching this classic from round 20 2005 when Crows won 13.10.88 to Port 12.9.81.

its a very good game

 

hey shorty

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You are not going to tell me that Mackay is a better player than Grigg. There are players that were worse than Mitch Grigg who had far greater careers. Not just at our club.
Mitch Grigg was a victim of us having a deep inside midfield brigade at the time. He was slow, lazy and unaccountable.

When we delisted him, nobody else bothered. Thrre is no shame in the career he had but hes one of countless guys whose level is in between the 2 leagues.
 

BronCrow

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Ironic coming from your view as a crows fan.

Option A was really tempting. But the thing is, you are a crows supporter. Your team has always been a competitive side. The corws have never went through a 10 year period without finals like the Demons did from 2007-2017. Hell the crows havent been had a 5 year period without finals like port did from 2008-12.

Freos finals record under Ross Lyon wasnt bad from 2012-15: 9 finals, 4 finals wins 5 defeats.

I mean go ask yourself with question, would you rather have a Neil Craig finals run again of 2005-2009 or the Bulldogs run of 3 prelims under Rodney eade of 2008-10? Both teams in those eras had the exact same finals record: 9 finals, 3 wins 6 defeats.


So Basically what your saying is..... When your team won Flags in 1997-98, are you willing to spend 18-20 years in a row with no finals?

Are you willing to cling on to those 1997-98 flags and you dont make any finals until that 2017 grand final? Thats what your willing to accept.


You also mentioned freos finals record in the last 15 years compared to west coast. Is it compareable? Deabateable.

If we are comparing both teams from say from 2005-19.....

Dockers made a prelim in 2006, finals in 2010 and finals in 2012-15.

West coast made top 4 in 2005-7, Grand finals in 2005-6, finals in 2011-12 which icludes a prelim in 2011 then finals in 2015-19 which includes a grand final in 2015 and 2018.
The whole irony in this is that a lot of people, including myself, would tell you that option A is not good enough. The comparisons to Melbourne and Port are a blight on them, not a a great compliment to us. If you are not winning flags you are nowhere. Finishing 5-8 consistently, which we have done, means nothing.

As for the comparison between Craig and Eade between 2005 and 2009, I would prefer neither. I would prefer that we were like Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast or Sydney in that time period. They got it done when it mattered, we didn't.

As for the next 2 questions, I said nothing of the sort. Going 19 years between grand finals is the definition of mediocrity, not that it bothers a lot of our supporters, which pisses me off immensely. I expect success every year, that is what great clubs do in any sport, whether that is realistic or not. Sadly, you are better off not making finals if you are not in the top 4 and in the race for the flag, which we have done a lot of over the last 20 years. That is how the system is set up.

I'll concede to you on the Freo West Coast comparison.
 

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BronCrow

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Mitch Grigg was a victim of us having a deep inside midfield brigade at the time. He was slow, lazy and unaccountable.

When we delisted him, nobody else bothered. Thrre is no shame in the career he had but hes one of countless guys whose level is in between the 2 leagues.
A bit like Matt Crouch in the last 2 years, but with better foot skills.

As for the nobody else bothered when we delisted him, my understanding is Mitch wasn't bothered about the AFL, not that other clubs weren't bothered. Has been sounded out again and told them he was settled where he was.
 

hey shorty

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A bit like Matt Crouch in the last 2 years, but with better foot skills.

As for the nobody else bothered when we delisted him, my understanding is Mitch wasn't bothered about the AFL, not that other clubs weren't bothered. Has been sounded out again and told them he was settled where he was.
When he was delisted he absolutely wanted back in. Now, youre right.

And Matt Crouch is 10 times the player.
 

BronCrow

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When he was delisted he absolutely wanted back in. Now, youre right.

And Matt Crouch is 10 times the player.
No, Matt Crouch isn't. Better, perhaps, but nowhere near 10 times the player Grigg is. Is better at finding the ball, but that is it. His disposal is terrible. And has all the same traits that you criticised Grigg (not completely unjustly) about.
 
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No, Matt Crouch isn't. Better, perhaps, but nowhere near 10 times the player Grigg is. Is better at finding the ball, but that is it. His disposal is terrible. And has all the same traits that you criticised Grigg (not completely unjustly) about.
His disposal is not terrible, that's another fallacy exclusive to this board.

A DE% of 71.4% across his whole AFL career to date is quite acceptable for a midfielder.
 
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hey shorty

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No, Matt Crouch isn't. Better, perhaps, but nowhere near 10 times the player Grigg is. Is better at finding the ball, but that is it. His disposal is terrible. And has all the same traits that you criticised Grigg (not completely unjustly) about.
He's fitter, he works harder and his kicking is actually a lot more solid than some would believe
 

BronCrow

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His disposal is not terrible, that's another fallacy exclusive to this board.

A DE% of 71.4% across his whole AFL career to date is quite acceptable for a midfielder.
I am sorry, but I watch enough football and have watched it for long enough to know that despite what statistics might say, his disposal is terrible.
 
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I am sorry, but I watch enough football and have watched it for long enough to know that despite what statistics might say, his disposal is terrible.
Yeah, maybe take your Crouch blinkers off sometime, it might help you get a full picture.
 

BronCrow

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He's fitter, he works harder and his kicking is actually a lot more solid than some would believe
There were a lot of guys that were fit and worked hard. Not all are great players.

Different era's I know, but Matt Crouch was fitter and worked harder than Darren Jarman. Who do you consider to be the better player?

No, Matt's kicking is not as good as you would like to believe.
 
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Thetrader15

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your talking about hindsight.

Freo were copped flak for years for choosing a Skinny victorian flanker in Jayden Pitt over WA forward in Jack Darling in 2010.

Actually looking back, that 2010 draft wasnt too bad, Suns had 9 of the 1st 15 picks and but wasted most of them.

Then you look at what the Eagles got in that 2010 draft....

Pick 4: Andrew Gaff,

Pick 26: Jack Darling

Pick 29: Scott Lycett

Jeremy McGovern was a rookie pick.

All 4 players would be in Gold Coasts starting 18
All 4 would be in EVERYONE's starting 18
 
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Nobody here is suggesting Matt's disposal is great but it's quite acceptable by position.

Not too many players with more effective disposals per game than him.


his meters gained shows how short and sideways his give offs are

and he slows our ball movement and forward thrusts. He has gone backwards majorly in recent times

he is a momentum vacuum too often
 

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