Who's closer to their next premiership: Carlton or Freo?

[Grand Uncle Horace]

oh looky look a Richmunt flog injury trolling...no surprises when you have serial haters like Grand Uncle Horace chucking ridiculous muck at every opportunity on threads like this - now he is positing that Carlton has a 'conditional' set of players on its list ... a list built for AA nominations LMAO @ you still (obviously) suffering from the embarrassment that SydneyCOLA is...and deflecting nonsense....

Why not have a good long hard look at your bunch after the disgusting display of 'conditional' football they put on in the grand final - your opine is at the same level as Fudgey's and belongs under a rock with your fellow cockroaches.

C grade melt … one of your better ones

 

[JustaBattler]

C grade melt … one of your better ones

Cowardly response - typical.

 

[beema limapep]

oh looky look a Richmunt flog injury trolling...no surprises when you have serial haters like Grand Uncle Horace chucking ridiculous muck at every opportunity on threads like this - now he is positing that Carlton has a 'conditional' set of players on its list ... a list built for AA nominations LMAO @ you still (obviously) suffering from the embarrassment that SydneyCOLA is...and deflecting nonsense....

Why not have a good long hard look at your bunch after the disgusting display of 'conditional' football they put on in the grand final - your opine is at the same level as Fudgey's and belongs under a rock with your fellow cockroaches.

Massive tangent.

I give 6/10 for the technique and 8/10 for the landing.

 

[MickG88]

That post has the air of anguish and melancholy of a Saints fan who knows full well their team is a long way off where the Blues or Freo are.

Considering we beat both those teams last year, your comment has very little merit.

 

[Schauermann]

Zac Williams is a good point actually. Most likely it will be the team that can keep their best team on the park at the right time.

 

[Soapy V]

Zac Williams is a good point actually. Most likely it will be the team that can keep their best team on the park at the right time.

Massive loss. Given the age of our best players we need to win it in next 2-4 years which I believe we can.

Injuries will be the key. Williams is a massive loss because he was very fit and at his best is an A grade talent. Also allowed Docherty to play on ball with Walsh out.

We now need Cowan, Hollands, Cottrell, Cuningham and these types to step up and make the difference

 

[Freomaniac]

Lol, what?
Freo live vicariously through WCE's ups and Downs.

Most WCE supporters don't think about Freo at all.

Really? I didn't give a stuff about your eagles men's side in 2022. Why would I care about your mob in 2023, 2024 and 2025 when your men's side is rebuilding?

I am more focused on the dockers men's side contending for a finals spot again

 

[fnerd]

Lol, what?
Freo live vicariously through WCE's ups and Downs.

Most WCE supporters don't think about Freo at all.

…Says the bloke constantly posting in Carlton/freo thread

 

[bzparkes]

…Says the bloke constantly posting in Carlton/freo thread

Pays to check before making an ass of yourself

 

[WaywardSonSon]

Decent post. I did think Pearce was older, his injury history clouded that thought. So how far behind list wise (how many drafts) are the Eagles realisticly?

And lets compare that list

1. Pearce - Barrass - both 27
2. Fyfe and O'Mera > Shuey and Gaff. All 4 over 30.
3.Walters - Cripps > both over 30
4. Brayshay and Serong > Kelly and Yeo. Freo winning here but Kelly and Yeo at 27/28 arent done.
5. Jackson. - Oscar Allen. One a better ruck one a better forward.
6. Darcy - Naitanui. Nic back in match sim training. Darcy younger. Both tend to pick up injuries, tough role.
7. Chapman and Cox. Solid defenders. So are Duggan and Cole at 26. Injury issues with both though.
8. Clark and Young. Hough and Hunt. Freo again in front here just. Hough ia a player to watch. Chesser also.
9. Frederick - Ryan. Ryan a better forward with morehurt factor.
10. Brodie - Sheed. Sheed looking fit and over the ankle.

So far I have Freo ahead but not by as much as most think.

Decent Eagles players not yet mentioned. Darling, McGovern and Hurn ( last year we know).

You didnt mention Ryan who is pretty good.

Then its the youth with potential.

Treacy, Johnson, Errasmus, O'Driscol, Amiss and Walker.

Eagles B Williams, J Williams, H Edwards, Jamison, Chesser, Ginbey, Hewett, Barnett and Burgeil.

The talls are even, the mids Freo ahead by two years development.

2023 draft Eagles have over three times the draft capital Freo has so will be bridging the gap in quality youth pretty quickly.

Then its Freo being a couple more years development ahead ofthe Eagles draftees.

So by 2025 I can see the two lists overall being pretty close. Unavailability of one or two key players will swing the odds either way. Freo lose a Serong, Young or Brayshaw to the circling Vics its back to square 1 and the draft.

The point overall. Freo's list isnt miles ahead, it is realisically two drafts and some luck with injuries seperating the two lists.

God this was entertaining reading. I stopped reading after the words, "6. Darcy - Naitanui. Nic back in match sim training. Darcy younger. Both tend to pick up injuries, tough role."

I spat out my drink when erupting into uncontrollable laughter! The only thing Nic's back into is the Krispy Kreme variety pack. You can't even compare the two. Darcy is now an Aston Martin, and Nic Nat is, well...your drunken mate's dinged up and rusty 1984 Hyundai Excel...

 

[Mr Cheese]

Honest question to Carlton supporters (genuinely interested in your opinion WalshistheGOAT as you seem to be pretty well informed across both teams)

Given the fact you'll be missing Walsh (who is a weapon, he ripped us apart last year) early, and he's unlikely to provide the impact once fit given no pre-season (not a criticism just an observation of similar situations previously across the league), and Williams for the season, who provided you with some run and gun, but more importantly, strategic versatility, where do you see most of your improvement coming from this year (please don't say Acres) is it enough to overcome the aforementioned injuries and are you confident of making the 8?

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Arr0w]

Honest question to Carlton supporters (genuinely interested in your opinion WalshistheGOAT as you seem to be pretty well informed across both teams)

Given the fact you'll be missing Walsh (who is a weapon, he ripped us apart last year) early, and he's unlikely to provide the impact once fit given no pre-season (not a criticism just an observation of similar situations previously across the league), and Williams for the season, who provided you with some run and gun, but more importantly, strategic versatility, where do you see most of your improvement coming from this year (please don't say Acres) is it enough to overcome the aforementioned injuries and are you confident of making the 8?

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

A mixture of many little aspects

• Gameplan. Unlike most sides that have a new coach, every aspect/area was stripped back to a simplistic, basic plan. More layers have/will be added this year
• Continuity and cohesion. While all sides suffer injuries, we used 13 different players in the backline, while also having other areas being effected by multiple outs. Only need a normal run of injuries, which should improve consistency
• Age and experience. Last year, we were one of a couple of sides that had the least number of 28+ year olds, this year still equal last for players 29+ year olds

If we can keep the majority of our best 18 on the park for longer periods, the next 10-12 players similar in quality, it should enable to push out 13-15 wins

 

[Cdog71]

A mixture of many little aspects

• Gameplan. Unlike most sides that have a new coach, every aspect/area was stripped back to a simplistic, basic plan. More layers have/will be added this year
• Continuity and cohesion. While all sides suffer injuries, we used 13 different players in the backline, while also having other areas being effected by multiple outs. Only need a normal run of injuries, which should improve consistency
• Age and experience. Last year, we were one of a couple of sides that had the least number of 28+ year olds, this year still equal last for players 29+ year olds

If we can keep the majority of our best 18 on the park for longer periods, the next 10-12 players similar in quality, it should enable to push out 13-15 wins

13 is alot, too many really to build trust and have players be where you expect them to be.
I do think most clubs will have put alot more time into how you play and be more deliberate in how they try and stop you guys playing.
Saw a bit of a diffeeence at the end of the season compared to the first 1/3rd with your midfield playing the way they want to but probably too many variables with injuries and new young players losing a little bit of edge on their legs with a long season.

I think Carlton have more talent and are building something for the next 5-10 yrs.

I reckon Carlton will have more looks at a good season than Freo next few years

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I reckon Carlton will have more looks at a good season than Freo next few years

Freo will tread water until Amiss and/or Treacy come on. Unless Taberner has a big season and plays 18+ games.

They have everything else in place and their list is young. They have time.

 

[Arr0w]

13 is alot, too many really to build trust and have players be where you expect them to be.
I do think most clubs will have put alot more time into how you play and be more deliberate in how they try and stop you guys playing.
Saw a bit of a diffeeence at the end of the season compared to the first 1/3rd with your midfield playing the way they want to but probably too many variables with injuries and new young players losing a little bit of edge on their legs with a long season.

I think Carlton have more talent and are building something for the next 5-10 yrs.

I reckon Carlton will have more looks at a good season than Freo next few years

I think 13 is a minimum, especially with the extra round

 

[Freomaniac]

Considering we beat both those teams last year, your comment has very little merit.

Both Freo vs saints games were weird.

Saints beat Freo in Perth in round 2 last season. Both played horrible footy but saints just got over the line. Only positive I got out of that was putting $100 on the saints to win $270.

Freo beat the saints late in the season at docklands. I enjoyed that win. Saints had some form and belted the blues in docklands. Saints also didn't travel and had a 7 day break.

Meanwhile Freo beat port Adelaide narrowly in Perth, had one days less rest compared to the saints and had to travel to face the saints.

Yes I was impressed with that 2nd half of that Freo vs saints game in docklands last season lol

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Honest question to Carlton supporters (genuinely interested in your opinion WalshistheGOAT as you seem to be pretty well informed across both teams)

Given the fact you'll be missing Walsh (who is a weapon, he ripped us apart last year) early, and he's unlikely to provide the impact once fit given no pre-season (not a criticism just an observation of similar situations previously across the league), and Williams for the season, who provided you with some run and gun, but more importantly, strategic versatility, where do you see most of your improvement coming from this year (please don't say Acres) is it enough to overcome the aforementioned injuries and are you confident of making the 8?

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think most of our improvement will come from if 3 players can stay healthy and another group of 4-5 to show the improvement they've shown in the preseason.

Those groups are:
Mitch Mcgovern, David Cuningham and Jack Martin (I know that's one hell of a wish)
Jesse Motlop, Corey Durdin, Zac Fisher, Obrien and our two draftees - Ollie Hollands and Lachie Cowan.

After a drop off in early season form from some of our youngsters specifically on the Half Forward line and Wings, it had a negative flow on effect up the ground that meant players like Cripps and Kennedy had to play as more 'regulation midfielders'. Early in the year Durdin, Owies and Fisher were pushing high up the ground providing that link to our forward line to make up for our lack of quality wing options. This allowed Kennedy and Cripps to focus on two things - Winning contested ball and pushing forward to be dangerous options given both are tough match ups for smaller midfielders. This provided us with some unpredictability which for the most part we really lacked in the 2nd half of the season. At that stage we were basically long and high to Curnow and Mckay or bust which became easy to defend if teams had the tall options to go with them. Durdin and Motlop looked to tire out given it was their first years playing AFL and Owies, Martin and Cuningham all struggled with injuries the 2nd half of the season which meant we really lacked that late last year.

Motlop, Durdin and Fisher are having career best preseasons, all looking more powerful, fitter and dangerous up forward and have been 3 standouts so far this off season for us. Cuningham and Martin have been nursed through and are on their own programs but supposedly in full health. Overall if those two can stay healthy and Motlop, Fisher and Durdin can show that improvement we look a hell of a lot more dangerous and dynamic up forward... But it also unlocks our goal kicking options up the ground as they can get ahead of the ball a bit more knowing their teammates will get the ball to them without their help.

Really that's where I predict our biggest improvement will come from.

Mcgovern - Pretty straight forward... Supreme talent. Great kick, good in the air, good one on one... But injury prone as anyone in the comp. Allows Docherty to move into the midfield to cover for Walsh as his rebounding and ball use is great. If he goes down, we lose that flexibility with Docherty given Williams is already down.

Then Hollands and Cowan, Hollands has been fantastic during the preseason coming off a wing. Cowan not as standout as Hollands so far but still been looking really comfortable at the level and provides speed and penetration by foot off HBF.

If Hollands can take the place of Obrien/Cottrell thats a win for us, he's a far more natural footballer. The other two have a bit more muscle on their frame but there's no doubt in my mind Hollands is a far more talented footballer than either. If LoB is holding him out of the team it means he's been performing well... if he's not... well Hollands comes in as an upgrade on our weakest position on the field with Acres holding the opposite wing down himself.



Other than that... We have a some improvement left in our senior core. Curnow was coming off close to 3 years out of the game and I expect to improve again, especially his chemistry with Mckay. Mckay too struggled with injury last year and I'd expect to have a marginal increase in performance as he gets a bit older and wiser moving into his prime years.

Cripps had an up and down year after a few years battling injury. His chemistry with the rest of the midfield with Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy all playing together for a year now will no doubt help.

Cerra and Kennedy are looking physically in better shape, adding some more size and just look a bit more powerful.

Pittonet if he can stay healthy is a big bonus. TDK if he has this 'breakout year' that experts are predicting will no doubt help too.


So in general a few youngsters, a few older players and a few star players who have just been adjusting to the new system/team synergy. Same as most teams. Where I think we'll jump up the ranks a bit if things go well is that the players we need to improve are largely already on our list and in positions that historically can improve rapidly. Our HFF's and Small Fwd's are all a few years in now which is when they tend to start showing real improvements and our wings have been half addressed with Acres. If Hollands can come good or Obrien have a breakout year then we're well placed in every position of the ground.

If they all improve our transition game improves, which in turn feeds Curnow and Mckay better ball coming in quick, which likely results in far more goals given how good both of them are.


Do I think we make the 8? Yes. Do I think Walsh and Williams out hurts us? A bit... Williams I'm not too worried about, Walsh I think we can work around until he's back but I think he needs to be close to his best when around the Bye period to win a few tough games and be good to go for finals. I'd say we should be aiming for top 4, but if we have some injury struggles again and a few players don't come on as expected then we should still be looking to make top 8 at a minimum as I believe we're far better on paper than some of the other teams in contention for that spot.

 

[Freomaniac]

Freo will tread water until Amiss and/or Treacy come on. Unless Taberner has a big season and plays 18+ games.

They have everything else in place and their list is young. They have time.

Well Taberner is only 29. Turns 30 In July. I think he has at least 2 or possibly even 3 years of good footy left before he declines or even retires.

So keeping Taberner in the 2023 and 2024 seasons does help Freo. Strangely he never kicked 40 goals in a season. Partly because he never had a full season.

His best season was 37 goals from 16 games. It won't bother me of he plays 20-22 games and kicks 30-35 goals.

I won't be surprised if he plays until he is 33 or even 34 years old.

One of freos better small forwards in Michael Walters turned 32 last month and this could be his final season.

As for treading water..... If treading water means 7th or 8th spot and an Elim final for the next 2 or 3 seasons, then that's fine. I want back to back finals appearances in 2023.

Only time Freo has made finals for at least 2 years in a row was under Ross Lyon from 2012-5. That needs to be rectified and changed.

That finals win last season eased off some pressure. 19 dockers blokes had their 1st final win In their career, even if they were traded off last season. Yep Blake Acres is one of them.

 

[Arr0w]

Well Taberner is only 29. Turns 30 In July. I think he has at least 2 or possibly even 3 years of good footy left before he declines or even retires.

So keeping Taberner in the 2023 and 2024 seasons does help Freo. Strangely he never kicked 40 goals in a season. Partly because he never had a full season.

His best season was 37 goals from 16 games. It won't bother me of he plays 20-22 games and kicks 30-35 goals.

I won't be surprised if he plays until he is 33 or even 34 years old.

One of freos better small forwards in Michael Walters turned 32 last month and this could be his final season.

As for treading water..... If treading water means 7th or 8th spot and an Elim final for the next 2 or 3 seasons, then that's fine. I want back to back finals appearances in 2023.

Only time Freo has made finals for at least 2 years in a row was under Ross Lyon from 2012-5. That needs to be rectified and changed.

That finals win last season eased off some pressure. 19 dockers blokes had their 1st final win In their career, even if they were traded off last season. Yep Blake Acres is one of them.

Have always admired guys like Taberner, despite being under utilised under Ross and struggling to stay on the park for a full season, he gives his all.

But like our club in the past when recruiting was poor, Taberner has had to be the number 1 tall forward (like Casboult)

Amiss needs to be your number 1 target, Taberner to play 2nd fiddle and continue playing Treacy who I rate highly

 

[FakeTaxi]

Honest question to Carlton supporters (genuinely interested in your opinion WalshistheGOAT as you seem to be pretty well informed across both teams)

Given the fact you'll be missing Walsh (who is a weapon, he ripped us apart last year) early, and he's unlikely to provide the impact once fit given no pre-season (not a criticism just an observation of similar situations previously across the league), and Williams for the season, who provided you with some run and gun, but more importantly, strategic versatility, where do you see most of your improvement coming from this year (please don't say Acres) is it enough to overcome the aforementioned injuries and are you confident of making the 8?

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Walsh won't need much conditioning to get back to match ready.

The biggest improvements for me will be the following- Charlie and Harry having a proper preseason together and both being fit (knock on wood). I think Charlie stamps himself as a top 3 player in the comp this year.

Our small forwards in Motlop and Fisher/Durdin/Owies improving. Motlop has all the ability to be elite small forward. Fisher to pinch hit in the middle at times.

Throw in some luck with injuries (Hewett/Pitto etc) I think we will push 5-7th

Oh and Acres on the wing

 

[Freomaniac]

Have always admired guys like Taberner, despite being under utilised under Ross and struggling to stay on the park for a full season, he gives his all.

But like our club in the past when recruiting was poor, Taberner has had to be the number 1 tall forward (like Casboult)

Amiss needs to be your number 1 target, Taberner to play 2nd fiddle and continue playing Treacy who I rate highly

Well Taberner has a polarising view in the Freo board. Some say he is a dud, other say he is good, other say we got not choice to play him because others that can play his role is injured.

Despite making finals in 2022, Freo still had those same forward line problems. But you can't say Freo didn't try and use 1st rounders to fix it.

Just bad luck in most cases.

Looking at the 1st round picks drafted or traded from 2016-21 rebuild....

2016: traded pick 3 for Cam McCarthy, pick 8 (Griffin Logue) , 32 (Sean Darcy) , pick 72 (Luke Ryan). Cam McCarthy didn't work out. Ross Lyon tried to make him a spear head but would of thrived as a 2nd or 3rd tall with either Hogan or Lobb or Taberner double teamed at full forward.

2018: we went nuts on the trade table. Essentially traded out picks we got for Lachie Neale for Jesse Hogan. Sadly Hogan didnt work out but is doing half decent at GWS.

Traded picks 11 and 23 for 14 and Rory Lobb. I was frustrated with Lobb. Yet in his final year, kicks 36 goals and helped Freo win a final for the 1st time since 2015.

We also some how got pick 18 and used it on a 190 cm Sam Sturt. Talented forward but injury prone.

2019: while not an actual Proper 1st rounder, Liam Henry was pick 9, a player in our Next generation academy. A winger or forward flanker.

2021: used either pick 8 or 10 on Jye Amiss. Hoping he becomes a solid KPF

 

[RonnieRaven]

Fyfe Jaeger Jackson Henry Sturt Treacy all looking sharp on the track this preseason.
Of course they can’t fill the shoes of acres lobb tucker and Logue but let a man dream.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think most of our improvement will come from if 3 players can stay healthy and another group of 4-5 to show the improvement they've shown in the preseason.

Those groups are:
Mitch Mcgovern, David Cuningham and Jack Martin (I know that's one hell of a wish)
Jesse Motlop, Corey Durdin, Zac Fisher, Obrien and our two draftees - Ollie Hollands and Lachie Cowan.

After a drop off in early season form from some of our youngsters specifically on the Half Forward line and Wings, it had a negative flow on effect up the ground that meant players like Cripps and Kennedy had to play as more 'regulation midfielders'. Early in the year Durdin, Owies and Fisher were pushing high up the ground providing that link to our forward line to make up for our lack of quality wing options. This allowed Kennedy and Cripps to focus on two things - Winning contested ball and pushing forward to be dangerous options given both are tough match ups for smaller midfielders. This provided us with some unpredictability which for the most part we really lacked in the 2nd half of the season. At that stage we were basically long and high to Curnow and Mckay or bust which became easy to defend if teams had the tall options to go with them. Durdin and Motlop looked to tire out given it was their first years playing AFL and Owies, Martin and Cuningham all struggled with injuries the 2nd half of the season which meant we really lacked that late last year.

Motlop, Durdin and Fisher are having career best preseasons, all looking more powerful, fitter and dangerous up forward and have been 3 standouts so far this off season for us. Cuningham and Martin have been nursed through and are on their own programs but supposedly in full health. Overall if those two can stay healthy and Motlop, Fisher and Durdin can show that improvement we look a hell of a lot more dangerous and dynamic up forward... But it also unlocks our goal kicking options up the ground as they can get ahead of the ball a bit more knowing their teammates will get the ball to them without their help.

Really that's where I predict our biggest improvement will come from.

Mcgovern - Pretty straight forward... Supreme talent. Great kick, good in the air, good one on one... But injury prone as anyone in the comp. Allows Docherty to move into the midfield to cover for Walsh as his rebounding and ball use is great. If he goes down, we lose that flexibility with Docherty given Williams is already down.

Then Hollands and Cowan, Hollands has been fantastic during the preseason coming off a wing. Cowan not as standout as Hollands so far but still been looking really comfortable at the level and provides speed and penetration by foot off HBF.

If Hollands can take the place of Obrien/Cottrell thats a win for us, he's a far more natural footballer. The other two have a bit more muscle on their frame but there's no doubt in my mind Hollands is a far more talented footballer than either. If LoB is holding him out of the team it means he's been performing well... if he's not... well Hollands comes in as an upgrade on our weakest position on the field with Acres holding the opposite wing down himself.



Other than that... We have a some improvement left in our senior core. Curnow was coming off close to 3 years out of the game and I expect to improve again, especially his chemistry with Mckay. Mckay too struggled with injury last year and I'd expect to have a marginal increase in performance as he gets a bit older and wiser moving into his prime years.

Cripps had an up and down year after a few years battling injury. His chemistry with the rest of the midfield with Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy all playing together for a year now will no doubt help.

Cerra and Kennedy are looking physically in better shape, adding some more size and just look a bit more powerful.

Pittonet if he can stay healthy is a big bonus. TDK if he has this 'breakout year' that experts are predicting will no doubt help too.


So in general a few youngsters, a few older players and a few star players who have just been adjusting to the new system/team synergy. Same as most teams. Where I think we'll jump up the ranks a bit if things go well is that the players we need to improve are largely already on our list and in positions that historically can improve rapidly. Our HFF's and Small Fwd's are all a few years in now which is when they tend to start showing real improvements and our wings have been half addressed with Acres. If Hollands can come good or Obrien have a breakout year then we're well placed in every position of the ground.

If they all improve our transition game improves, which in turn feeds Curnow and Mckay better ball coming in quick, which likely results in far more goals given how good both of them are.


Do I think we make the 8? Yes. Do I think Walsh and Williams out hurts us? A bit... Williams I'm not too worried about, Walsh I think we can work around until he's back but I think he needs to be close to his best when around the Bye period to win a few tough games and be good to go for finals. I'd say we should be aiming for top 4, but if we have some injury struggles again and a few players don't come on as expected then we should still be looking to make top 8 at a minimum as I believe we're far better on paper than some of the other teams in contention for that spot.

Cheers, appreciate the insight, particularly the depth in which you went into it. I think Walsh out has to hurt more than a bit, he's a generational mid (I get that's overused, but I think it's applicable to him) and whoever comes in won't have his blend of defense and attack, but I can see you've a got pretty solid plan B in place and I guess Curnow and McKay are good enough to make most i50 deliveries dangerous, even if not on a platter.

Hope you guys are up and about and your injury luck improves, would be a great game against you at the pointy end of the season.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sean_09]

Well Taberner has a polarising view in the Freo board. Some say he is a dud, other say he is good, other say we got not choice to play him because others that can play his role is injured.

It's a love/hate with Tabs. He's got all the tools you could want from a Key Forward - great size, good hands (usually around the top in AFL for contested marks), huge tank and a decent set shot. Just lacks anything close to a footy brain. That along with soft tissue and history of foot problems means his best return for a season has been 15-17 games (only four times he's played double digit games..).

Would I prefer to see Treacy & Amiss play over him? Probably, but man Tabs is a joy to watch when he's on. Worst case we'll just play him against Essendon

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Freo definitely!!!!!!