Who's the best Indigenous player ever?

[ferball]

Played well in both losing GFs though.

True. He's a great player, just not one of the GOATs.

(BTW This is my opinion. You're allowed to have a different one.)

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Buddy top 5 all time
Cable one of very few blokes to slaughter Lethal Leigh, absolute superstar.
Goodes wonderful at his best (2006)


Most underrated: Winston Abraham.
Pound for pound the greatest kick of a footy we’ve ever seen.

You must have missed the career of D Jarman.

 

[ferball]

Personally I reckon the Krakouers changed the game.

The way they worked together using space made the modern game what it is today. I think it influenced Pagan, who was coaching u19s at the time and as a result he developed his "paddock" which was something he was working on before Carey made it so effective.

The game is different now. So much of it is about shutting down the space Jimmy and Phil taught everyone how to use.

Among my favorites for sure and individually there have been better players, (jimmy in the 10-15 range and Phil lower is fair enough) but when they worked together they created what we take for granted now.

 

[Kanye West]

True. He's a great player, just not one of the GOATs.

(BTW This is my opinion. You're allowed to have a different one.)

Opinions can be wrong though mate, and you aren't the first person to be wrong either

 

[Usayed Givashe]

You must have missed the career of D Jarman.

I consider him an Adelaide player

 

[Soggy2112]

Its the exception not the rule.

That’s just not true, there’s literally hours of highlights footage of him kicking bags and kicking freak goals in big moments against top quality opposition:

E.g.

 

[ferball]

Opinions can be wrong though mate, and you aren't the first person to be wrong either

No, neither are you.

Look the simple fact is I wouldn't rely on Buddy to win me a game.

There are other indigenous players I would rely on to win me a game, basically in any circumstances, and in a discussion about the absolute greatest players ever that is an important factor. Buddy might do it sometimes but there are other players indigenous ones too, who i would rely on in those circumstances. If my life was on the line and I had to pick a player to win a game for me I wouldn't pick him. If I could only pick from blackfellas the same thing would apply.

Even players not in the top ten of the list for greatest ever. (Choppy for example.)

 

[Soggy2112]

No, neither are you.

Look the simple fact is I wouldn't rely on Buddy to win me a game.

There are other indigenous players I would rely on to win me a game, basically in any circumstances, and in a discussion about the absolute greatest players ever that is an important factor. Buddy might do it sometimes but there are other players indigenous ones too, who i would rely on in those circumstances. If my life was on the line and I had to pick a player to win a game for me I wouldn't pick him. If I could only pick from blackfellas the same thing would apply.

Even players not in the top ten of the list for greatest ever. (Choppy for example.)

Buddy is by far the best key forward of our generation. He has consistently performed at that level for the better part of 15 years. On countless occasions he has kicked goals which few other players could in tight games against high quality opposition. The dribble kick against the Pies in the 2011 prelim and the winner against us in the 2007 elimination final immediately spring to mind.

Yes, you can have opinions but suggesting that Pickett is more likely to win a game for you then Franklin is laughable.

 

[Shane Heard]

Maurice Rioli Snr by a fair length of the Flemington straight

 

[Milanista28]

Buddy for me followed by Goodes

 

[Sttew]

The title of this thread really needs to be changed from, 'Who's the best Indigenous player ever?' To 'Who's the best Indigenous player that you have seen?'

Posters saying Player X is best by a country mile when in all likelihood they never saw the likes of Polly Farmer, Barry Cable, the Krakour brothers etc, reminds me of the old radio station 3XY who would run a poll to find out the greatest song or album ever, and 9 times out 10 people responding would vote a current song or album.

 

[Sweetback]

Roger Hayden

Roger Hayden

Age

43

Ht

182cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.9

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.1

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.4

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

0.8

3star

 

[ferball]

Buddy is by far the best key forward of our generation. He has consistently performed at that level for the better part of 15 years. On countless occasions he has kicked goals which few other players could in tight games against high quality opposition. The dribble kick against the Pies in the 2011 prelim and the winner against us in the 2007 elimination final immediately spring to mind.

Yes, you can have opinions but suggesting that Pickett is more likely to win a game for you then Franklin is laughable.

Buddy might be the best key forward of this generation but he's no Logan McDonald.

Pickett has a Norm Smith medal and a s**t load of physical courage and actual physical toughness. I think those things are pretty important, especially in old school footy which Buddy would have struggled with. Its not just skill, you need physical and mental toughness imo. Buddy's career would have been half as long if he'd played against the likes of Jackovich, Martin, Frawley or even Glenn Archer in their prime.

If Wayne Carey played today he would have played an extra five years because his shoulders wouldn't have been destroyed by backmen who punched them cos they couldn't stop him holding marks and kicked another 500 goals from the sort of frees forwards get these days. You could probably add that many goals to a few other older forwards too. (All this talk about older players not being up to todays athleticism doesn't take into account today's players not necessarily being tough enough or skilled enough to play in the era pre 2005 when they really started trying to get the physical brutality out of the game.)

 

[golazo]

Cameron Ling

 

[Cyber_punk]

Buddy top 5 all time
Cable one of very few blokes to slaughter Lethal Leigh, absolute superstar.
Goodes wonderful at his best (2006)


Most underrated: Winston Abraham.
Pound for pound the greatest kick of a footy we’ve ever seen.

Winston was the first number I got on my North jumper as a kid.

Knee injury at 26 that put him out of business, a bloody waste. Man was a wizard

 

[Soggy2112]

Buddy might be the best key forward of this generation but he's no Logan McDonald.

Pickett has a Norm Smith medal and a s**t load of physical courage and actual physical toughness. I think those things are pretty important, especially in old school footy which Buddy would have struggled with. Its not just skill, you need physical and mental toughness imo. Buddy's career would have been half as long if he'd played against the likes of Jackovich, Martin, Frawley or even Glenn Archer in their prime.

If Wayne Carey played today he would have played an extra five years because his shoulders wouldn't have been destroyed by backmen who punched them cos they couldn't stop him holding marks and kicked another 500 goals from the sort of frees forwards get these days. You could probably add that many goals to a few other older forwards too. (All this talk about older players not being up to todays athleticism doesn't take into account today's players not necessarily being tough enough or skilled enough to play in the era pre 2005 when they really started trying to get the physical brutality out of the game.)

The advantages in the rules for key forwards are more than cancelled out by congestion. You could just as easily say how many more goals would Buddy have kicked if he had an open 50 to work in the way previous generations key forwards did?

Buddy would have been a star in any era. I’ve never seen any player combine his level of strength, size, speed, agility, power and skill. You can make all the completely subjective statements about his “toughness” that you want but there is zero chance he wouldn’t dominate regardless of the era he played in.

 

[MrWoollie]

The title of this thread really needs to be changed from, 'Who's the best Indigenous player ever?' To 'Who's the best Indigenous player that you have seen?'

Posters saying Player X is best by a country mile when in all likelihood they never saw the likes of Polly Farmer, Barry Cable, the Krakour brothers etc, reminds me of the old radio station 3XY who would run a poll to find out the greatest song or album ever, and 9 times out 10 people responding would vote a current song or album.

Showing my age, but Polly Farmer still gets it for me.

Only saw him at the end of his career playing for West Perth but he was still magic.

Saw Barry Cable play in the flesh for Perth in the early 70s and East Perth at the end of his career. Saw lots of North on the telly as well. And boy was he good.

Saw lots of Stephen Michael as well. So far ahead of everyone else in the WAFL ruck stocks. Anyone who thinks he wouldn't have made it in the VFL never saw him play and hasn't seen or heard comments by people who know a bit about ruck craft like Polly Farmer and Bill Dempsey MBE.

Mostly a joy to watch. A few were absolute bell-ends, but that's just how it is.
Was lucky to see Andrew McLeod, Peter Matera, Buddy, Adam Goodes, MickyO, Chris Lewis and a lot of others as well. All the Narkles, Krakouers, Riolis and other family groups.

 

[ferball]

The advantages in the rules for key forwards are more than cancelled out by congestion. You could just as easily say how many more goals would Buddy have kicked if he had an open 50 to work in the way previous generations key forwards did?

Buddy would have been a star in any era. I’ve never seen any player combine his level of strength, size, speed, agility, power and skill. You can make all the completely subjective statements about his “toughness” that you want but there is zero chance he wouldn’t dominate regardless of the era he played in.

No they aren't.

You're just saying that cos you want to keep arguing.

 

[Soggy2112]

No they aren't.

You're just saying that cos you want to keep arguing.

I’m really not, explain how I’m wrong?

The number of goals kicked has declined significantly across the league since the 90s. Do you really believe that this is all down to forwards just being better in that era and not at all to do with professionalism leading to an improvement in defensive tactics making it more difficult to score?

There is now less space inside 50 for key forwards, less room to lead into, less opportunity for one on one contests. Essentially, less opportunity for key forwards to thrive.

You can argue Buddy is not tough enough to survive in previous eras. I would strongly disagree but okay, but it’s more plausible to suggest that if he had the space and opportunity to work one on one that previous years forwards did he’d have kicked a lot more goals.

 

[RUNVS]

I’m really not, explain how I’m wrong?

The number of goals kicked has declined significantly across the league since the 90s. Do you really believe that this is all down to forwards just being better in that era and not at all to do with professionalism leading to an improvement in defensive tactics making it more difficult to score?

There is now less space inside 50 for key forwards, less room to lead into, less opportunity for one on one contests. Essentially, less opportunity for key forwards to thrive.

You can argue Buddy is not tough enough to survive in previous eras. I would strongly disagree but okay, but it’s more plausible to suggest that if he had the space and opportunity to work one on one that previous years forwards did he’d have kicked a lot more goals.

Just imagine the damage Buddy would have done in his prime or even now if he spent a lot of time 1 on 1 with an opponent inside the forward 50. Buddy is very good on the lead and if he didn't mark it and the ball hit the ground I am backing Buddy 9 times out of 10 against an opposition KPD.

 

[ferball]

I’m really not, explain how I’m wrong?

The number of goals kicked has declined significantly across the league since the 90s. Do you really believe that this is all down to forwards just being better in that era and not at all to do with professionalism leading to an improvement in defensive tactics making it more difficult to score?

There is now less space inside 50 for key forwards, less room to lead into, less opportunity for one on one contests. Essentially, less opportunity for key forwards to thrive.

You can argue Buddy is not tough enough to survive in previous eras. I would strongly disagree but okay, but it’s more plausible to suggest that if he had the space and opportunity to work one on one that previous years forwards did he’d have kicked a lot more goals.

Has it?

The only stats I can find don't suggest that at all.

 

[RUNVS]

Has it?

The only stats I can find don't suggest that at all.

The numbers of goals by individual players. Even players who were not that great could kick 100 goals in a season in the late 80's and early 90's. Now it is basically impossible.

 

[ferball]

The numbers of goals by individual players. Even players who were not that great could kick 100 goals in a season in the late 80's and early 90's. Now it is basically impossible.

Sorry what???

Okay maybe BT .... altho if he wasn't such a buffoon on tv I'd probably give him more credit.

 

[Soggy2112]

Has it?

The only stats I can find don't suggest that at all.

AFL Tables - Yearly Stats Totals And Averages

Compare the average goals kicked in the 80s/90s early 2000s to this decade.

Also consider this:

From 1991-2000 a single player kicked 80+ goals in a season 30 times. In that time the likes of Cummings, Loewe, Rocca, Sumich and Longmire achieved this feat. Now they were great players, but they’re not on the level of Dunstall, Carey, Lockett etc. yet they still managed it. Comparatively, from 2012-2021 it happened 3 times. Buddy and Kennedy the only two that have managed it.

What stats have you got that are suggesting it’s easier for key forwards to kick bags now?

 

[ROYAL EAGLE]

Peter Matera

Peter Matera

Age

55

Ht

183cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.8

5star

K

14.0

5star

HB

4.9

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

3.2

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.6

3star

G

0.6

3star

watching him beat three players with bounces and dummy's and kicking 55 metre goals was a joy to watch.
His best games of footy are at a level few others could get too.