The Law Whose land are you occupying?

[ferball]

I agree with a lot of that.

But the bolded part isn't my offence to be sorry for.

No but you can understand how its just how things are. Its not your fault but that is the situation.

Where do we go from here?

People born across the world today aren't responsible for the invasions and land takeovers that are littered through history. Its as much my country and land now as any Australian. I respect that our views may differ on that.

If what happened in the past had stopped I'd agree with you. Its still going on. Its never stopped, it just happens at different levels of intensity at different times.

It is our land. We are Australians now and this stuff is still happening. In our name, in our home. It might be the government but effectively its done by us.

I don't think its good enough.

re The bolded, I agree. And I feel the same way.

And that is why I don't think its good enough.

 

[Jello_B]

Racism, Inequality, Theft, Genocide.....do you need more?

But that stuff has already happened, it can’t be dismantled now. There is no genocide today.

 

[Gough]

But that stuff has already happened, it can’t be dismantled now. There is no genocide today.

Indigenous incarceration rates and life expectancy still suggests we're trying.

 

[Jello_B]

Indigenous incarceration rates and life expectancy still suggests we're trying.

Should we dismantle our legal or prison system?
I thought life expectancy had improved since settlement?
I’m not trying to be facetious I just don’t understand what people would want to dismantle.
I like the other ideas another poster made about more recognition, and a fund for education and development.

 

[ferball]

Should we dismantle our legal or prison system?
I thought life expectancy had improved since settlement?
I’m not trying to be facetious I just don’t understand what people would want to dismantle.
I like the other ideas another poster made about more recognition, and a fund for education and development.

So the options are let be as s**t as it is or wipe it out completely?

No middle ground trying to address some of these issues to do with disparities in ... well most things across the legal system?

 

[ShanDog]

So the options are let be as sh*t as it is or wipe it out completely?

No middle ground trying to address some of these issues to do with disparities in ... well most things across the legal system?

Of course we should, but it seems obvious to me that the problem is more associated with everything that comes before the legal system gets involved. I find it very strange that the incarceration rates are such a talking point. They are the result of far more important and deeper issues.

 

[Jello_B]

So the options are let be as sh*t as it is or wipe it out completely?

No middle ground trying to address some of these issues to do with disparities in ... well most things across the legal system?

I agree with you, and I’m asking the same thing. Check back a few pages and the post I initially responded to that proposes we need to dismantle stuff. I’m asking what needs to be dismantled.

 

[Frank Bunn]

If what happened in the past had stopped I'd agree with you. Its still going on. Its never stopped, it just happens at different levels of intensity at different times.

It is our land. We are Australians now and this stuff is still happening. In our name, in our home. It might be the government but effectively its done by us.

What are these things that happened in the past that are still going on and being done by our government?

 

[ferball]

What are these things that happened in the past that are still going on and being done by our government?

Over policing for a start. Disparities in sentencing and in prosecution despite no disparities in crime rates (ie vehicle crime in NT and WA). Closing remote communities despite evidence showing the best outcomes for indigenous people in terms of health. Less access to healthcare services.

 

[Chief]

Higher deaths of indigenous people in police action and custody related to failure to follow procedure and failure to provide care.

 

[William Wonka]

Whining like a little bitch about something that happened before the Napoleonic wars makes legitimate issues re. entrenched poverty, health, policing, housing etc. get forgotten.

 

[Chief]

 

[ferball]

Of course we should, but it seems obvious to me that the problem is more associated with everything that comes before the legal system gets involved. I find it very strange that the incarceration rates are such a talking point. They are the result of far more important and deeper issues.

But are those issues unique to indigenous communities?

Over representation in juvenile justice isn't because of some fundamental flaw in indigenous people is it?

Pre invasion, people would leave their tools in a spot, do something to identify them as owned and they'd be left alone. It was (at least according to anthropologists) a matter of pride not to steal or take other people's stuff. So its not like criminality is something that their cultures promote.

By the same token violence (not just DV but violence in general) is a massive problem, but it was in Australia 30 years ago too. There would be fights nearly every Friday and Saturday night at nearly every pub in every town. And indigenous Australians have been subject to ongoing violence forever. Well since invasion/settlement. So its not just an issue in a vacuum.

Sexual violence is also an issue but blackfellas don't set up pay per view websites in the Phillippines that offer exclusive live vision of the sexual assault of kids under three and their federal members don't travel there regularly for what looks like sus sexual tourism. Before the little children are sacred report it wasn't just indigenous people abusing indigenous kids. There were (maybe still are) networks like the ones in the Catholic church that were not racially dependent but were based around trafficking young indigenous kids for sexual purposes.

But I knew people in Melbourne who fell into networks like that run by actual elites. (IE what Qanon freaks talk about.) I'm not gonna name names but during the late 80s early 90s one involved the deputy VP (who was also a rape councellor) at a prominent Melbourne private girls school and a chunk of his network. They interacted with child prostitution networks under the protection of Alphonse Gangitano. I know because I helped someone escape from that situation and it was dodgy for her and those of us that got her out. (She was still an underage working girl at the time.)

So while there are serious deeper issues and no one should deny them one of those issues, IMO anyway, is that we project our worst qualities onto indigenous Australians then over police their communities as a form of compensation for our own failings.

To illustrate my point - Why wasn't there a NT type intervention into the Catholic Church 15 years ago?

 

[ferball]

Just want to add indigenous societies were very violent pre invasion too, and unlike ours no one surrendered their right to violence to the state. There was no state as we understand it. People would fight or go to war at the drop of hat (and as a result alot of the management of their societies was devoted to peacemaking between older people who'd been there, done that and saw no value in it.)

So its not all down to white intervention...

 

[ShanDog]

Over representation in juvenile justice isn't because of some fundamental flaw in indigenous people is it?

Of course not.

So while there are serious deeper issues and no one should deny them one of those issues, IMO anyway, is that we project our worst qualities onto indigenous Australians then over police their communities as a form of compensation for our own failings.

On the other hand, under-policing them just to create equality with society's other moral failings isn't something to be proud of either. The issues are either there or not, and whataboutism does no-one favours. It certainly doesn't help the victims.

 

[ferball]

Of course not.


On the other hand, under-policing them just to create equality with society's other moral failings isn't something to be proud of either. The issues are either there or not, and whataboutism does no-one favours. It certainly doesn't help the victims.

What is under policing? What happens in (most of) the rest of the country?

I live near Nimbin, which is a community that is over policed for political reasons (no one likes hippies.) It doesn't protect anyone or lower crime rates. It just builds barriers between the population and the police. People are less likely to report things like DV or any violence because they don't want to encourage the cops. It has the opposite effect to what you intended in your comment in terms of protecting victims. People identify the threats they face (from thuggish shitheads) as part of their group and the police as an illegitimate outside force that doesn't have their best interests at heart.

They are also more likely to deal with their own problems (ie take the law into their own hands) because they see relying on the police as illegitimate.

 

[ShanDog]

What is under policing? What happens in (most of) the rest of the country?

I live near Nimbin, which is a community that is over policed for political reasons (no one likes hippies.) It doesn't protect anyone or lower crime rates. It just builds barriers between the population and the police. People are less likely to report things like DV or any violence because they don't want to encourage the cops. It has the opposite effect to what you intended in your comment in terms of protecting victims. People identify the threats they face (from thuggish shitheads) as part of their group and the police as an illegitimate outside force that doesn't have their best interests at heart.

They are also more likely to deal with their own problems (ie take the law into their own hands) because they see relying on the police as illegitimate.

You might be correct - it's not something that applies to where I love or have experienced. But * me if that doesn't sound like some seriously dumb logic on behalf of those who do it. It's shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You will Say anything to justify your hatred, it eats away at you .

It’s simple , we stole their land . Raped and murdered them and now you say they have nothing to complain about.
Your a sad soul.

How old are you? Sounds like you there at the time and were complicit in rape and murder? Are you pleading guilty?

 

[CatFan79]

If there are so many passionate individuals that feel strongly about this, then why don't they lead the way and offer up their land (that's actually not theirs) to one of of the 28,000 homeless indigenous in this country?? Twitter and Bigfooty rants along with signs out the front of their Brunswick townhouse aren't really beneficial.

Everyone's a heartfelt socialist, supportive of every minority.... Until you ask them to give up anything.

And anyone with more wealth then them is "the problem".

"Share it, fair it, but don't take a slice of my pie"

BTW, just bought a nice chunk of coastal land for an investment.. and yeah, it's mine.

 

[Chief]

How old are you? Sounds like you there at the time and were complicit in rape and murder? Are you pleading guilty?

We continue to benefit from past injustices. It’s not a judgement on people here today.

 

[Seeds]

We continue to benefit from past injustices. It’s not a judgement on people here today.

What past injustices do you benefit from?

 

[ferball]

You might be correct - it's not something that applies to where I love or have experienced. But fu** me if that doesn't sound like some seriously dumb logic on behalf of those who do it. It's shooting yourself in the foot.

This is what happens.

When the hippies first got there the cops were terrible. They were abusive, damaged property and were brutal, allegedly rapist arseholes. They'd harass people and cause all sorts of problems. And admittedly there was a culture of growing cannabis that they could legitimately target. But there was more than that and hippies and the green movement went together then and it was during the protests to stop the logging of the Nightcap Range rainforest. So there was local political pressure to * the hippies over before they stopped the logging. (BTW I know a few of those old loggers and they are still rednecks but everyone I've known has acknowledged the hippies were right to stop them and thankful they did succeed even if cost work temporarily. AS they got older many became close friends.)

The police lost legitimacy and community trust and still haven't got it back. The old greenie/redneck divide is going or gone but the police are still viewed with suspician and its not just by the hippies any more. No doubt if weed was legal that would change to a fair degree. But there is still a conflict between profit and the environment and the police are seen as being one the profit side.

Authority needs legitimacy and in indigenous communities, like Nimbin, that legitimacy is just not there. If it was concepts like "Invasion day" or "change the date" would get alot less traction.

 

[Chief]

What past injustices do you benefit from?

One or two frontier wars around the place.

 

[ferball]

One or two frontier wars around the place.

Colonisation itself.

 

[Chief]

Colonisation itself.

Hey wow! It's like you hate white people!