The Law Whose land are you occupying?

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Seeds

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Why would you buy anything then. It would be far better to just rent and spend everything you earn. All incentive to do more than you need to get by would be pointless. Sounds about as awesome as the old defunct communist era USSR.
You buy it for yourself and for your family while they live with you. I still buy the house i live in today. I buy it for myself and so my kids have somewhere to be raised. Why the hell would you buy stuff if it wasnt for you and your family to experience while you are alive? How stupid is that? Not to mention wasteful of both resources which other people could need and your leisure time?


dont work to death building up giant piles of resources you have no use for. Work just enough to have a comfotable life and provide yourself ample leisure time to pursue your interests. To make you happy.

life is supposed to be about happiness. Not building stockpiles of resources for your great great grand children who you never meet and are only genetically linked to you by 1/8th or 1/16th.

And if you think the meaning of life is about working to death to build stockpiles for others then wont they do the same and so on? Everyone building wealth for others and those others also doing the same so no one actually benefits from it?


the height of insanity. Literal insanity.
 

Gough

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Colonization was 250 years ago. the unequal benefits and loses of it has nothing to do with australians living today. The only linkage people make is bloodlines which again has nothing to do with us. maybe if we lived in a highly aristocratic society where rights, education, jobs and power was passed down bloodlines then you could say we beneft from from the unjustness of colonization but we dont live in such a society anymore where power, rights, education and jobs are linked to blood. only inheritance is still linked to blood, the last major racist link of our society, butA even that in australia is well and truly disipated and dispersed from the wealth of our blood ancestors 200 years ago. Inheritance links tend only last 3-4 generations in Australia.
That you seem unwilling to even admit that the founding of this country still has direct effects on the Indigenous population is part of the reason reconciliation is so difficult in this country.
 

ferball

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Over policing is relative. There are remote communities where domestic violence against women and abuse of children is off the charts compared to more populated suburban areas.

Health outcomes will be worse when you chose to live 200 km from a hospital.

Education outcomes will be worse when you don't send your kids to school.

It comes back to that not every remote area can be supported by the same standard of policing, health, education etc as the general standards in metropolitan areas. And some communities have become so dysfunctional that they should be shut down.

The argument about Australia Day and whose land it is just a distraction from the real problems.
Which is why I keep saying no one would care about the date if people dealt with the other issues.

The most dysfunctional indigenous communities are in towns or communties between 1 and 5 thousand people, sometimes more, where multiple groups from different areas are all living together (Roeburn, Tennant Creek, Palm island). Basically places where trauma is magnified not dealt with.

All the research that was done on this in the 90s and 00s was ignored tho. Struff that talks about the effect of intergenerational trauma and all the rest. Right when we are starting to really see the consequences of trauma in people like our returned soldiers and ememrgency service workers.

And frankly I don't believe people like you give a fu**.

When solutions are proposed you sh*t on them or ignore them then when things get worse because those solutions weren't implemented in places that needed them youse all point to that as why those solutions didn't work.

So as usual (this happens every year on this board) this is the point where we all no longer have anything meaningful or useful to say to each other.
 

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ferball

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Colonization was 250 years ago. the unequal benefits and loses of it has nothing to do with australians living today. The only linkage people make is bloodlines which again has nothing to do with us. maybe if we lived in a highly aristocratic society where rights, education, jobs and power was passed down bloodlines then you could say we beneft from from the unjustness of colonization but we dont live in such a society anymore where power, rights, education and jobs are linked to blood. only inheritance is still linked to blood, the last major racist link of our society, but even that in australia is well and truly disipated and dispersed from the wealth of our blood ancestors 200 years ago. Inheritance links tend only last 3-4 generations in Australia.
You're another one with no real idea aren't you.
 

Carringbush2010

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You completely ignore what I said, “we have not committed the crimes” , why are you bleating about this ??

It is up to us to atone , a simple I’m sorry , nah that wont fly!!!

I dont believe you will say “Ah now I see“ as you simply dont wont to See.

You should enjoy reading this, will get your ragometer pumping.

With respect Slarti, you have been pushing the line the 'we' are responsible for some seriously bad treatment of a culture and its people that happened over 200 years ago.

That is a very serious and offensive accusation and the reason you're receiving responses of 'I had nothing to do with it' with a bit of venom.

Your other agenda of we should all be collectively responsible (I'd hope you'd include Aboriginals in that responsibility otherwise that is disrespectful to them) for reconciliation going forward is more than noble and only the bigots would not gladly accept some responsibility in this area.

But don't expect to accuse everyone in this country ('we') as some sort of guilty collective for something that happened more than 200 years ago and had no control of it and then expect tumbleweeds and crickets to go by your alerts column.

You'd do well to retract your statements labeling people of the now as guilty for something back then.
 

Slartibartfast

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With respect Slarti, you have been pushing the line the 'we' are responsible for some seriously bad treatment of a culture and its people that happened over 200 years ago.

That is a very serious and offensive accusation and the reason you're receiving responses of 'I had nothing to do with it' with a bit of venom.

Your other agenda of we should all be collectively responsible (I'd hope you'd include Aboriginals in that responsibility otherwise that is disrespectful to them) for reconciliation going forward is more than noble and only the bigots would not gladly accept some responsibility in this area.

But don't expect to accuse everyone in this country ('we') as some sort of guilty collective for something that happened more than 200 years ago and had no control of it and then expect tumbleweeds and crickets to go by your alerts column.

You'd do well to retract your statements labeling people of the now as guilty for something back then.
What a pathetic person you are.
Serious accusation. haha. Having your country stolen from you is not serious????
It is not debatable that we stole their land and have continually abused them for generations .

We have the responsibility to make amends.

YOU need to apologise for you apathy towards aboriginals.

YOU are guilty!!! Now do something about it.
 

Carringbush2010

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What a pathetic person you are.
Serious accusation. haha. Having your country stolen from you is not serious????
It is not debatable that we stole their land and have continually abused them for generations .

We have the responsibility to make amends.

YOU need to apologise for you apathy towards aboriginals.

YOU are guilty!!! Now do something about it.
Did you not read the post? You're bordering on ignorant behaviour

Please explain where I stole the country from the Aboriginals. Where and when did I do that?

I clearly CLEARLY stated that I'm more than happy to shoulder some responsibility for reconciliation going forward.

I clearly CLEARLY stated that I had zero to do with what happened nearly 250 f*n years ago.

Yet you keep accusing all and sundry of that, adding mayo claiming I'm pathetic. Don't be so f*n ignorant and deflective

What's it going to take to get it through your thick head that anyone alive today had nothing do with what happened back then?
 

Kappa

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What a pathetic person you are.
Serious accusation. haha. Having your country stolen from you is not serious????
It is not debatable that we stole their land and have continually abused them for generations .

We have the responsibility to make amends.

YOU need to apologise for you apathy towards aboriginals.

YOU are guilty!!! Now do something about it.
Who is "we"?

Are white people in general responsible for the crimes of other white people?
 

Demons09

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My family were 65 years off setting foot on this rock when the ANZACS took their hiding and still we have to put up with the tubthumping about how a bunch of guys getting slaughtered in Turkey under the control of the English at the behest of the Russians somehow defines this country.
You’re so far out of touch with what the majority of Australians think about Anzac day, keep wallowing in despair what a sad life you must have i suppose the bongs take the edge off.
 

Seeds

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That you seem unwilling to even admit that the founding of this country still has direct effects on the Indigenous population is part of the reason reconciliation is so difficult in this country.
what rights do they lack? do they not have access to public education and health care and welfare payments? Are they not free to move, work and live anywhere?

the indiginous people of the past did lack access to basic rights and welfare. But that is not the indiginous people of today.

the only real disadvantage for the indiginous people today is they come from families with little wealth so they dont have inheritance to the same degree as non indiginous people putting them at a major economic disadvantage. Its one of the many reasons im against inheritance. There is also uncoscious racial bias in employment and from the police/law but i think once you eliminate the wealth bias created by inheritance (and other possible social factors) you would find that this bias only has a small impact on opportunity given the extensive work and programs governments and large employers have used to minimize and offset it.
 
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Corpuscles

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That you seem unwilling to even admit that the founding of this country still has direct effects on the Indigenous population is part of the reason reconciliation is so difficult in this country.
What is this "reconciliation" you speak of ? How specifically is that to be achieved beyond the many measures already taken?
What is required of the rest or don't you have any clue either!?

If it is "the founding of the country" that is the problem, do you propose un-founding it?
How will they ever forget the founding and shut up about it? Since you claim that is their problem?
 

Demons09

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What is this "reconciliation" you speak of ? How specifically is that to be achieved beyond the many measures already taken?
What is required of the rest or don't you have any clue either!?

If it is "the founding of the country" that is the problem, do you propose un-founding it?
How will they ever forget the founding and shut up about it? Since you claim that is their problem?
I think he wants all the whites to move out.
 

Roylion

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so they dont have inheritance to the same degree as non indiginous people putting them at a major economic disadvantage. Its one of the many reasons im against inheritance.
:rolleyes: Inheritance isn't racist. Indigenous people have the same rights of inheritance as any other Australian. You could argue that inheritance plays a significant effect on social stratification, but that's not racist either. If you want to abolish inheritance, then logically you would be of the opinion that 'land rights' that is: a geographical area belonging to a particular indigenous cultural group on the basis of ancestry should not exist either?
 

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Seeds

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:rolleyes: Inheritance isn't racist. Indigenous people have the same rights of inheritance as any other Australian. You could argue that inheritance plays a significant effect on social stratification, but that's not racist either. If you want to abolish inheritance, then logically you would be of the opinion that 'land rights' that is: a geographical area belonging to a particular indigenous cultural group on the basis of ancestry should not exist either?
my answer to your last question is yes. Land rights based on ancestory should not exist. Its the same as inheritance. Discrimination in the access to resources based on bloodlines.
 

Roylion

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my answer to your last question is yes. Land rights based on ancestory should not exist. Its the same as inheritance. Discrimination in the access to resources based on bloodlines.
Its not discrimination. Indigenous people have the same rights of inheritance as any other Australian. Social stratiification is not the same as racism.

Kyle Vander Kuyp, Mark Ella, Aden Ridgeway and Stan Dryden (artist) are all examples of very successful and wealthy indigneous Australians who are multi-millionares. There are indigenous lawyers (Noel Pearson), doctors, university professors (Marcia Langton) and businessmen. All have the right to pass their private wealth onto their children and other near relatives should they choose to do so.
 
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kranky al

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Change the date if you want, although most people will be unhappy.

The whole "you're living on stolen land" thing is the dumbest idea ever and only serves to drive a massive stake between Indigenous and white Australians. If you want good relations then stop telling white people to be ashamed and that their house and land is not their own but actually will always be owned by someone else. This rhetoric only serves to build hate and divide but idiot SJW's keep spreading it to make themselves feel better despite the damage it does.
Yeah im sure if china invaded, killed and raped your family and took your land you would be all “shut up - china days cool - no point looking back at my dead raped daughters”

why is it people have zero empathy
 

Kappa

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Yeah im sure if china invaded, killed and raped your family and took your land you would be all “shut up - china days cool - no point looking back at my dead raped daughters”

why is it people have zero empathy
I'm not upset over who killed my family 300 years ago TBH.

Life was brutal back then, that's just how it was. Eventually you have to move on.
 

Ben The Donkey

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It's really starting to get tangential, but I've always found it interesting that many of the same people who claim you are benefiting from the actions of previous generations are often the same who also denounce having too much of a connection to history (i.e. "Why are you taking credit for what happened 150 years ago? You did nothing.")

Or maybe that's the cynic in me coming out.
It's not, unless by "cynic" you're referring to the current trend to blackwash history.
There is a systemic drive to nullify the achievements of one culture over another, notably and significantly "white" culture. I'm using the quotes because it really doesn't have anything to do with race, that's just a term we use to simplify.

We're told to respect any culture over our own, made to feel guilty about "white" (and there's a catch all phrase) achievements while society simultaneously holds up a stone dam in a river or controlled burns to prove indigenous "ingenuity" after 60 thousand years of habitation.

We're taught to revile English colonialism, at the same time making us believe the the indigenous inhabitants of a land were living in some kind of magical utopia before the evil white folks got here, because that shield (supposedly) used by Cooman when whites first landed was originally supposed to defend against attacks by particularly vicious Kangaroos.

I think the main issue anyone has with "white" colonialism is that they were just better at it than anyone else.
 

ShanDog

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There is a systemic drive to nullify the achievements of one culture over another, notably and significantly "white" culture.
No. There may be fringe crazy people who think like that, but it's not systemic. Systemically, we are being pushed to recognise other cultures as equal. There's enough to argue with there without the exaggeration.
We're told to respect any culture over our own, made to feel guilty about "white" (and there's a catch all phrase) achievements while society simultaneously holds up a stone dam in a river or controlled burns to prove indigenous "ingenuity" after 60 thousand years of habitation.
Yeah, look, I'm as critical as anyone when it comes to glorifying "other ways of knowing" and concepts that extend from that into the scientific realm where they simply don't belong, but again, trying to point out that Indigenous Australians weren't sub-human isn't a call to make you feel guilty about being the beneficiary of modern science.


We're taught to revile English colonialism, at the same time making us believe the the indigenous inhabitants of a land were living in some kind of magical utopia before the evil white folks got here, because that shield (supposedly) used by Cooman when whites first landed was originally supposed to defend against attacks by particularly vicious Kangaroos.
There's a lot to revile about colonialism, especially when considered against our current morals and ethics. I'd agree with you if you said that people erroneously make value judgements about the actions of those 200 years ago through the lens of a contemporary person, but you're taking it too far. There's a crazy fringe who want to de-colonialise everything, but they are shouting into the void for the most part.
 

kranky al

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I'm not upset over who killed my family 300 years ago TBH.

Life was brutal back then, that's just how it was. Eventually you have to move on.
Its easier to move on from a position of strength.

and whatever gave you the idea it was all 300 years ago - massacres are one generation away. Stolen generations still alive - as are the flora and fauna generation
 

Kappa

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Its easier to move on from a position of strength.

and whatever gave you the idea it was all 300 years ago - massacres are one generation away. Stolen generations still alive - as are the flora and fauna generation

Which massacre are you referring to?
 

kranky al

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Which massacre are you referring to?
<<<<Western Australia
Kimberley region – The Killing Times – 1890–1920: The massacres listed below have been depicted in modern Australian Aboriginal art from the Warmun/Turkey Creek community who were members of the tribes affected. Oral histories of the massacres were passed down and artists such as Rover Thomashave depicted the massacres.

1910sEdit
  • 1906-7 Canning Stock Route: an unrecorded number of Aboriginal men and women were raped and massacred when Mardu people were captured and tortured to serve as "guides" and reveal the sources of water in the area after being run down by men on horseback, restrained by heavy chains 24 hours a day, and tied to trees at night. In retaliation for this treatment, plus the party's interference with traditional wells and the theft of cultural artefacts, Aboriginal people destroyed some of Canning's wells, and stole from and occasionally killed white travellers. A Royal Commission in 1908, exonerated Canning, after an appearance by Kimberley Explorer and Lord Mayor of Perth, Alexander Forrest claimed that all explorers had acted in such a fashion.[169]
  • 1915 Mistake Creek Massacre: In March 1915, Michael Rhatigan, a telegraph linesman based at Turkey Creek, together with his two Aboriginal employees, Joe Wynne and Nipper, shot dead twelve Kija people at Mistake Creek in the East Kimberley. They initially rushed an Aboriginal camp killing six men, burning their remains. Six women were later rounded up and shot dead. A police squad was sent to track down and capture Rhatigan and his accomplices.[170] Rhatigan and Nipper were arrested while Wynne was shot dead by police. A coroner's inquest held at Turkey Creek acquitted Rhatigan of any wrongdoing, while Nipper was ordered to face trial for the murder of eight people.[171] Nipper was found not guilty and was released. He later worked at the police stables in Perth. According to local Aboriginal oral history, the massacre was in reprisal for the killing of Rhatigan's cow; the cow was later claimed to have been found alive after the massacre had already taken place.[172] Members of the Gija people, from the Warmun (Turkey Creek) community have depicted the massacre in their artworks.[173] Michael Rhatigan remained a telegraph linesman at Turkey Creek until his death in 1920.[174] His son, John Rhatigan, became a long serving Labor Party politician in the Western Australian Legislative Assembly.[citation needed] A painting by renowned Indigenous artist Queenie McKenzie depicting the massacre was bought by the National Museum of Australia in 2005, but due to controversy over the facts of the event, part of the History Wars, it had never been hung. From July 2020 it was put on display as part of a new exhibition titled "Talking Blak to History" at the Museum.[175]
1920sEdit
  • 1922 Sturt Creek massacre: of more than a dozen people occurred in October 1922 when policemen were sent out to investigate the murders of two white stockmen, Joseph Condren and Tim O'Sullivan,[176] at Billiluna Station. For many years the only record of the massacre was the oral histories of local Aboriginal elders who described the police shooting a group of Aboriginal people near Sturt Creek, but forensic evidence has confirmed the deaths.[177][178][179]
  • 1924 Bedford Downs massacre: a group of Gija and Worla men were tried in Wyndham for spearing a milking cow on the Bedford Downs Station. When released from the court they were given dog tags to wear and told to walk the 200 kilometres back to Bedford Downs. On arrival they were set to work to cut the wood that was later used to burn their bodies. Once the work was finished they were fed food laced with strychnine by white station hands and their writhing bodies were then either shot or they were clubbed to death. The bodies were subsequently burned by the local police.[180] This massacre has been depicted in artworks by members of the Gija tribe, the identities of the alleged perpetrators passed down and the events re-enacted in a traditional corroboree that has been performed since the massacre allegedly occurred.[181] The accounts became widely known after oral histories collected for the 1989 East Kimberley Impact Assessment Project (EKIAP) were published in 1999. As is customary for Indigenous reports, the EKIAP did not name anyone who was dead. Moran was unaware that several of the original written accounts did name not only the eyewitnesses and survivors but also the killers and other whites who were present but did not participate.[182]
  • June 1926. Forrest River massacre: Western Australian police constables, James Graham St Jack and Dennis Hastings Regan led a month long punitive expedition against Aboriginal people living in the Forrest River region. After the local mission station reported around 30 people missing, a police investigation was organised. This investigation found that at least 16 Aboriginal people were killed and their remains burnt in three purpose-built stone ovens. The police investigation led to a Royal Commission the following year. During the proceedings of this commission, the suggestion of the evidence of a native being equal to that of a white man was openly mocked.[183] Despite this overt attempt to protect the perpetrators, the Commissioner still found that somewhere between 11 and 20 people were killed and St Jack and Regan were subsequently arrested for murder.[184] Instead of going to trial, the men were brought before police magistrate Kidson who, in spite of the findings of the two previous investigations, deemed that the evidence was insufficient to go before a jury.[185]Regan and St Jack were released and the Premier, Philip Collier, even re-instated them to their previous positions in the Kimberley.[186]
QueenslandEdit
1910sEdit
  • 1918 Bentinck Island: Part of the Wellesley Islandsgroup, which includes Mornington Island, Bentinck Island was home to the Kaiadilt clan of just over 100 people. In 1911, a man by the name of McKenzie (other names unknown) was given a government lease for nearby Sweers Island that also covered the eastern portion of the much larger Bentinck Island. Arriving on Bentinck with an Aboriginal woman plus a flock of sheep, he built a hut near the Kurumbali estuary. Although the Kaiadilt avoided contact and refrained from approaching McKenzie's property he is alleged to have often explored the island, shooting any males he found while raping the women. In 1918, McKenzie organised a hunt with an unknown number of settlers from the mainland and, beginning from the northern tip of the island, herded the Indigenous inhabitants to the beach on its southern shore. The majority of the Kaiadilt fled into the sea where those that were not shot from the shore drowned. Those that tried to escape along the beach were hunted down and shot, with the exception of a small number who reached nearby mangroves where the settlers' horses could not follow. Several young women were raped on the beach, then held prisoner in McKenzie's hut for three days before being released. As the Kaiadilt remained isolated throughout much of the 20th century, the massacre remained unknown to the authorities until researchers recorded accounts given by survivors in the 1980s.[187]
Northern TerritoryEdit
1920sEdit
  • 1928 Coniston massacre: In August 1928, a Northern Territory Police constable, William George Murray, was ordered to investigate the killing of a white man named Fred Brooks by several Aboriginal people at a waterhole to the west of Coniston cattle station. Murray led a series of punitive expeditionsfrom August until October 1928 which officially resulted in the deaths of 31 mostly Warlpiri and Kaytetye people. Other men who participated with Murray in the mass killings included local landholders William "Nugget" Morton and Randall Stafford; cattlemen John Saxby, William Briscoe and Alex Wilson; and three Aboriginal trackers who went by the names of Paddy, Dodger and Major. Analysis of the existing documentation and surviving Aboriginal testimonies indicate that somewhere between 100 and 200 people were shot dead during this police operation, a number far higher than the official bodycount.[188] Murray later escorted two Aboriginal prisoners to Darwin to face trial for the killing of Fred Brooks. At this trial Murray freely gave evidence to the presiding judge that he shot a large number of Aboriginals during the operation, that he shot to kill and shot dead wounded men and women. The judge noted that Murray "mowed them down wholesale." Murray's admissions in court led to widespread publicity about the massacres and a governmental Board of Enquiry was set up to investigate the incident.[189] The Board of Enquiry was a whitewash set up to protect the colonial system in the Northern Territory and it found that the shootings were justified. No charges were laid against any of the perpetrators and Murray continued to serve in the Northern Territory Police until the 1940s.[188] A survivor of the massacre, Billy Stockman Tjapaltjarri, later became part of the first generation of Papunya painting men. Billy Stockman was saved by his mother, who put him in a coolamon.[190]>>>
 

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