Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[Elmer_Judd]

Show me the AFL document that says we introduced FA because of Luke Ball.

Yeah my recollection free agency was introduced cause the Players Association were pushing it for years, nothing really to do with the Luke Ball scenario

But the AFL really did put a flimsy rod up its spine with the whole concept of FA compensation and the disgraceful imbalance of the Buddy Franklin and James Frawley compo picks (for example)

The more you delve into the past 20 or years, the more you will realise what a shoddy and somewhat pitiful sporting organisation the AFL has been, not just for non Victorian clubs either.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Let's be honest... the Big 4 + Hawthorn and Geelong are all destination clubs. Ok, maybe not Essendon (at the moment). Whereas pretty much NO non-Victorian team is a destination club... with the possible exception of Sydney who seem to be doing a very good job and dislodging a superstar from Victoria every few years. I reckon a few clubs should be looking at what Sydney are doing, because somehow they are always in the hunt when a big name trade is being speculated.

Hawthorn has not been a destination club kn years, and I dare say, the Hawks will find it hard to attract established talent to their club for the foreseeable future

 

[LoungeLizard]

All heresay without documents.

Lol, thats the thing with you Vicco's, always put the burden of proof on everyone else whilst enjoying 14 flags in the 16yrs since the inquiry.
I think the circumstantial evidence to support our case is overwhelming.
Documents to the contrary please.

If you haven't got anything to prove what you said then why did you say in the 1st place? I just answered with my version of events, I support Collingwood, so I probably remember it better than you do.

And the bit about the 2 expansion clubs, well that is deadset delusion.

Now, you are the one who said it, so don't expect others to provide proof, you put up or shut up.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Let's be honest... the Big 4 + Hawthorn and Geelong are all destination clubs. Ok, maybe not Essendon (at the moment). Whereas pretty much NO non-Victorian team is a destination club... with the possible exception of Sydney who seem to be doing a very good job and dislodging a superstar from Victoria every few years. I reckon a few clubs should be looking at what Sydney are doing, because somehow they are always in the hunt when a big name trade is being speculated.

Lifestyle, hard to replicate it for anyone other than Brisbane really or GC if they get their s**t together long enough.
Problem is Victoria provide the most talent in any given year, FA simply provides an avenue for developed talent to return home, all scouts have to say is go to club X and if you prove yourself we'll bring you back to the clubs you mention and give you a real chance of continued success.
People point to clubs like WC and Sydney as successful non Vic examples but neither of these clubs which are considered successful have been able to create the dynasties that Vic clubs have taken for granted in the past 16yrs so that notion holds weight.
Its emotional warfare really as any discussion about winding FA back would be met with an outcry about player welfare and family connection.

 

[blue harvest]

Yep, considering 2 of the biggest recruits of the past 4 GF appearances have included Cameron and Lynch from GWS and GC.
Prove otherwise.

I'm not the one making the bizarre claims.

 

[Freomaniac]

Let's be honest... the Big 4 + Hawthorn and Geelong are all destination clubs. Ok, maybe not Essendon (at the moment). Whereas pretty much NO non-Victorian team is a destination club... with the possible exception of Sydney who seem to be doing a very good job and dislodging a superstar from Victoria every few years. I reckon a few clubs should be looking at what Sydney are doing, because somehow they are always in the hunt when a big name trade is being speculated.

Nah.... I reckon the tried and tested theory to a rebuild is getting the best young talent, preferably the best local young talent and go from there.

It worked for west coast post 1992 and 1994 flags. West coast finished low in 2000 and 2001, as they made grand finals in 2005-6 and getting that 2006 flag.

They rebuilt again in 2008-2010 and made finals in 2011-12. They rebuild in 2013-4 and grand finals in 2015 and 2018, got another flag in 2018.

As for The dockers.... 1995-2002 was a very long path to that 1st final. Then Freo were finals contenders from 2003-6. Made finals in 2003 and 2006.

Freo rebuild in 2007-09. Made finals in 2010, missed finals in 2011. Got Ross Lyon as coach in the end of 2011. Made finals from 2012-15.

Rebuild from 2016-21. Lyon was sacked at the end of 2019. Justin Longmuir was appointed as Freos coach at the end of 2019 to finish off the rebuild. Fell short of finals in 2020 and 2021. Made finals in 2022.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm not the one making the bizarre claims.

Coming from a poster that complained about having only one MCG game during the hawks 1988 before the grand final.

Despite having players that played in the 1975-76, 1978, 1983-1988 grand finals.

 

[Freomaniac]

Counter argument - Vic clubs are also competing against considerably more clubs in their state to land a player who wants to play in Vic.

And that is true. I have posted that. Mind you, that local country talent in the TAC cup or whatever it's called these days are premium too.

Vic clubs might look at local talent in the VFL. Even though it's a 16 team league and 10 of those clubs are Victorian ressies. The other 6 are feeder clubs.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Counter argument - Vic clubs are also competing against considerably more clubs in their state to land a player who wants to play in Vic.

Yes, but the best player go to the top 4 sides or at least have a strong future.

Cameron and Lynch going to top 4 sides was not a surprise

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yes, but the best player go to the top 4 sides or at least have a strong future.

Cameron and Lynch going to top 4 sides was not a surprise

What about Lachie Neale going to 15th place Brisbane, or GAJ going to GC

It's not all one way, some of you seem to forget though.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Its really only Carlton, Essendon and North that have struggled from within Victoria and I think it would be fair to say they've had a fair hand in that themselves.
Given enough time their opportunity to take advantage of the same benefits will come around and more so if additional non Vic clubs are entered as it'll free up even more developed FA talent.
I think the balance of feeder clubs to successful Vic clubs is probably about right at the moment hence the results.

I think when you hold an enquiry into the success of one portion of your league based on geographics, the notion of Us v them is pretty obvious.
Who you support is second to the good of the collective.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

What about Lachie Neale going to 15th place Brisbane, or GAJ going to GC

It's not all one way, some of you seem to forget though.

I mean, Gaz could have left a successful Vic club to go to any other successful at the time Non Vic club but he chose an upstart, and then went back I might add.
Nothing to do with money obviously..LOL

 

[LoungeLizard]

I mean, Gaz could have left a successful Vic club to go to any other successful at the time Non Vic club but he chose an upstart, and then went back I might add.
Nothing to do with money obviously..LOL

Why is it funny? are we just talking fame here not money?

Did Buddy leave for money or fame? or both?

Are you making rules now are you?

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Why is it funny? are we just talking fame here not money?

Did Buddy leave for money or fame? or both?

Are you making rules now are you?

The AFL wanted Buddy at GWS, Sydney outplayed them, Buddy took the deal, I think that points to money but im sure lifestyle and the potential for on field success we're factors considering he made that decision off the back of Hawthorns loss to Sydney in '12.

Please, if we we're to write up a list comparing FA movement in and out of Victoria it would make your argument embarrassing for you, the fact that you point to two AFL sanctioned/instigated examples suggests you're clutching at straws.

 

[LoungeLizard]

The AFL wanted Buddy at GWS, Sydney outplayed them, Buddy took the deal, I think that points to money but im sure lifestyle and the potential for on field success we're factors considering he made that decision off the back of Hawthorns loss to Sydney in '12.

Please, if we we're to write up a list comparing FA movement in and out of Victoria it would make your argument embarrassing for you, the fact that you point to two AFL sanctioned/instigated examples suggests you're clutching at straws.

Why would I be embarrassed? I am just pointing out players leave and go to non-Vic clubs also, you don't seem to mention that.

Of course more players are going to come to Vic, for a couple of reasons, most players are from here originally and there are more teams here.
We can go on and on, you haven't mentioned Tim Kelly yet or Elliot Yeo, there are many more.

 

[Blackas87]

Yes, but the best player go to the top 4 sides or at least have a strong future.

Cameron and Lynch going to top 4 sides was not a surprise

Tim Kelly went to West Coast after they finished 5th and a premiership the previous year.

This year Luke Jackson looks like heading to Fremantle after they finished 5th and made a Semi and look like they have a strong future.

 

[PrisonBars4life]

So what youre saying is there might or might not have been changes made to support Vic clubs but without a document which I seriously doubt the AFL would offer up or leave to chance discovery, you wont acknowledge it.
C'mon, your own club just handed the AFL a damning report that still wouldnt have seen the light of day had it not been leaked.
They dont need to write an admission statement to identify avenues to favor Vic clubs in order to act on them.

Pretty sure tons of weaker/ non vic clubs were apprehensive about FA and very vocal about it. Everyone was told it would be good for weaker clubs and it hasn't turned out to be.

 

[PrisonBars4life]

Why would I be embarrassed? I am just pointing out players leave and go to non-Vic clubs also, you don't seem to mention that.

Of course more players are going to come to Vic, for a couple of reasons, most players are from here originally and there are more teams here.
We can go on and on, you haven't mentioned Tim Kelly yet or Elliot Yeo, there are many more.

The exact point is it is not even close in terms of numbers. It's very clear that the top few clubs in victoria suck up more than their fair share of players whether by number or talent. It doesn't mean that Richmond or Hawthorn, or Melbourne is always going to be a destination club, but when they are, they are much more likely to win flags because they can pick and choose what they need. There is a rotating band of Vic teams that poach players like they are ordering off a catalogue. The players that Port have picked up have always come for a reason. Ryder just wanted out of Essendon, Dixon had a connection to Hinkley, Lycett had a connection to Port, Motlop had a huge connection to Port, Finlayson's wife had a connection to SA. Rockliff is probably the only outlier. We have tried throwing money at players, at times where we have been a top side, they just don't come.

The AFL pump money generated by all 18 teams into a league that disproportionately benefits the Vic teams. Adelaide and Port get bled dry by the SANFL to help fund SA grass roots football.

Vic Metro kids are a bunch of whiny entitled little shits that want to play for the club they supported as a kid even though that doesn't happen in basically any professional sport in the world. The AFL have introduced rules to make it easier for those players to leave the clubs that drafted them. The AFLPA is a biased disgrace. You only have to look back at the treatment of Andrew Moore vs Will Minson for umpire contact in the SANFL vs VFL. There was a media witchhunt waged against Moore. 'Any contact is completely unacceptable'. The umpire didn't even know it had happened and said Moore was respectful at all times. Minson did it a few weeks later and the AFLPA went into bat for him and his ban was overturned despite the umpire claiming to be intimidated. They're a bunch of self-interested c8nts. They point to professional sports overseas to enable freer movement and leave out the part where the NBA has 4-year draft contacts (2 of those years only at the option of the club), where those sports allow clubs to ship out players against their will mid season, and its industry standard that large parts of a contract are not 'guaranteed' money. You do your ACL and can't play again and you were on a 50 mil contract, too bad only 20 of it was guaranteed. So, we get a bastardized version of those rules where the top players hold the whip and that 100% benefits Victorian clubs.

It shouldn't take much thinking power to work out there is a difference.

 

[LoungeLizard]

The exact point is it is not even close in terms of numbers. It's very clear that the top few clubs in victoria suck up more than their fair share of players whether by number or talent. It doesn't mean that Richmond or Hawthorn, or Melbourne is always going to be a destination club, but when they are, they are much more likely to win flags because they can pick and choose what they need. There is a rotating band of Vic teams that poach players like they are ordering off a catalogue. The players that Port have picked up have always come for a reason. Ryder just wanted out of Essendon, Dixon had a connection to Hinkley, Lycett had a connection to Port, Motlop had a huge connection to Port, Finlayson's wife had a connection to SA. Rockliff is probably the only outlier. We have tried throwing money at players, at times where we have been a top side, they just don't come.

The AFL pump money generated by all 18 teams into a league that disproportionately benefits the Vic teams. Adelaide and Port get bled dry by the SANFL to help fund SA grass roots football.

Vic Metro kids are a bunch of whiny entitled little shits that want to play for the club they supported as a kid even though that doesn't happen in basically any professional sport in the world. The AFL have introduced rules to make it easier for those players to leave the clubs that drafted them. The AFLPA is a biased disgrace. You only have to look back at the treatment of Andrew Moore vs Will Minson for umpire contact in the SANFL vs VFL. There was a media witchhunt waged against Moore. 'Any contact is completely unacceptable'. The umpire didn't even know it had happened and said Moore was respectful at all times. Minson did it a few weeks later and the AFLPA went into bat for him and his ban was overturned despite the umpire claiming to be intimidated. They're a bunch of self-interested c8nts. They point to professional sports overseas to enable freer movement and leave out the part where the NBA has 4-year draft contacts (2 of those years only at the option of the club), where those sports allow clubs to ship out players against their will mid season, and its industry standard that large parts of a contract are not 'guaranteed' money. You do your ACL and can't play again and you were on a 50 mil contract, too bad only 20 of it was guaranteed. So, we get a bastardized version of those rules where the top players hold the whip and that 100% benefits Victorian clubs.

It shouldn't take much thinking power to work out there is a difference.

Oh my.

They had reasons to go to Port did they?

I mean come on mate, do you believe that is going to win you an argument?

I agree with the whiny little shits bit though, I am also against players nominating clubs, but we are there and I think it's there to stay.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes, but the best player go to the top 4 sides or at least have a strong future.

Cameron and Lynch going to top 4 sides was not a surprise

Stengle ( who had far more impact than Cameron) was gifted to Geelong by the crows as an indirect outcome of the camp.

 

[Rich01]

Please, if we we're to write up a list comparing FA movement in and out of Victoria it would make your argument embarrassing for you, the fact that you point to two AFL sanctioned/instigated examples suggests you're clutching at straws.

This is an interesting exercise.

8 free agents came into Vic from other states over the past five years.

6 free agents left Vic to other states since 2018.

Roughly the same % correlation considering number of Vic teams (10) in the comp (18).

A handful of players switched clubs within Victoria and between non vic states.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Tim Kelly went to West Coast after they finished 5th and a premiership the previous year.

This year Luke Jackson looks like heading to Fremantle after they finished 5th and made a Semi and look like they have a strong future.

Yes. But as most players come from Victoria they have the pick of players and someone every year to get.

 

[Blackas87]

Yes. But as most players come from Victoria they have the pick of players and someone every year to get.

But as stated before there are more Vic clubs competing for those players. WA clubs can narrow in on players, they don’t have many rivals to compete for players.

There are 468 Victorian player, 10 vic clubs at 46.8 per club

There are 119 WA players and only 2 clubs at 59.5 per club.

WA clubs have a greater ratio of players to choose from. It’ll be far easier for Fremantle to bring a WA player home that Hawthorn bringing a Vic player home.

 

[Goosecat]

Yeah I really don't think "football" states have any arguments regarding attraction, retention, free agency etc. There's enough population in each to draw from compared to Vic and they get quite a few of their own seeking to come back as well. The "non-football" states might have something to argue in that area and that's fair enough.
The single biggest advantage is still the being at home, in your own bed, preparing and recovering with your own family and support available each week, each game, with little travel or flying each year, throughout your career, spread across the entire team. This single most important aspect, continually referred to by the players themselves, is an advantage the interstate teams just can't have.
The reality is each interstate team has to be not 1 or 2 percent better than the Vic teams to win it, they have to be much, much better and that is simply harder to do. Any interstate team that wins it all, even by a hares breath, is not just a tiny bit better for the year. Regardless of scorelines, they've actually had to be vastly superior. Any interstate team that manages a "dynasty" accordingly; has been immeasurably superior.

 

[go_the_dockers]

But as stated before there are more Vic clubs competing for those players. WA clubs can narrow in on players, they don’t have many rivals to compete for players.

There are 468 Victorian player, 10 vic clubs at 46.8 per club

There are 119 WA players and only 2 clubs at 59.5 per club.

WA clubs have a greater ratio of players to choose from. It’ll be far easier for Fremantle to bring a WA player home that Hawthorn bringing a Vic player home.

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And as stated most of these go to the two or three cubs that are at the top of the ladder.

This is why a top Vic side wins multiple premiership or at least one.

The other big advantage is 80 percent of your list is Victorian while at most 50 percent of Fremantle is from wa.