Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[Freomaniac]

kranky al , your thoughts?

 

[blue harvest]

And if the Victorian sides win every flag from now until 2029, what then?

Again.... From 2007 onwards, only 2012 swans and 2018 eagles are the only non Victorian side to win a flag

Again... Over the last decade, 8 of the 20 Grand Finalists (40%) and 17 of the 40 Preliminary Finalists (42%) have been interstate sides. They make up 44% of the comp, when you factor in the Giants and Suns finding their feet early in that period then that figure is about what you would expect.

They just haven't been able to get the job done on big the day in recent times.

 

[bacon buster]

I can’t see my club winning one under the current system either.

true. you should turf out the rest of the bad eggs at your club

 

[Freomaniac]

Out of the last 15 years only two non Victorian teams have won the premiership

Why are the Melbourne based teams so much more dominant?

How do we help/fix the interstate teams?

Move the Grand Final elsewhere.........Oh wait :/

At this rate.... I hope Freo makes the grand final soon.

And at this rate, I hope it's vs a South Australian side or any other non Vic side

I would not give a stuff if either SA side belt the dockers by 10-12 goals to be honest.

 

[Magma]

See... There is one major flaw and one minor flaw when it came to Port Power taking over the Port Magpies.

One is the moment that happened, Port Magpies junior and country zones were taken away. They were replaced by top ups or amateur players. No chance of the next Scott Hodges or Tim Ginever or Paul Northeast could be produced.

Look how Freo took over peel thunder in the WAFL. Yes the Peel side won 2 WAFL flags in 2016 and 2017. In that 2016 grand final, Of the 21 peel players in that team, 17 were dockers players. The other 4 were Peel blokes. In 2017, The WAFL changed the rules and fair enough. In the 2017 grand final, only 14 of those 21 guys were dockers players, one was Zac dawson.

If I had it my Way. I would of Let Port Magpies keep their junior zones and recruiting zones. On the strict condition they play out of the 21 or 22 magpies listed players, you play a maximum of 14 or 15 Power listed players each week. Then the last 6-8 spots are rotated by Magpies players that can be produced as AFL hopefuls.

they just would be in another clubs zone. i cant speak for what the zones looked like before i was born but those guys just develop at a different club these days. we have nathan eagleton and i think shaun burgoyne's kids in our u/18's and u/16's. thats just how it is now.

We notionally have indigenous academies which definitely helped lachie jones come on. Maybe. I think Victoria benefit from having the AFL in charge of the TAC cup. There is actually a motivation to grow the pool of talent. The SANFL is run by a bunch of dog c8nts who actively try to undermine us. Our stadium deal is designed to leech as much as they can off the 2 AFL teams (and is probably worse than any other in the country). The rules for the 2 AFL sides change every couple of years and always to our detriment to make sure the Magpies are weak. With our injuries this year, we were playing SANFL reserve standard players and had the AFL listed players regularly playing out of position. The magpies don't have juniors anymore so one of the largest contributors as far as AFL/VFL players over the past 30 years is gone. I'm not sure a healthy number of SA draftees is a priority for the SANFL.

i know for a fact that at westies we put a huge amount into player development that we will never see back. we have produced a few high draft picks (francis, rankine, thilthorpe) and seen other guys go through mid season drafts (snelling, noble) which for a club who hasnt made final since we won the grand final in 2015 and has basically spent the whole of the 2000's onwards nearly broke i would say indicates that the club definitely cares about development of players. fair to say we also feel fairly let down by the sanfl.

 

[Freomaniac]

I can’t see my club winning one under the current system either.

I do see the crows eventually recover and make another grand final.

Crows made a grand final in 2017 despite the hardships of what happened to Dean Bailey and Phil Walsh a few years prior.

Again.... Only way I see either your team or my team winning a flag is that the grand final opponent is another non Victorian side like eagles vs swans in 2005-6 for example.

 

[Big Crow]

I do see the crows eventually recover and make another grand final.

Crows made a grand final in 2017 despite the hardships of what happened to Dean Bailey and Phil Walsh a few years prior.

Again.... Only way I see either your team or my team winning a flag is that the grand final opponent is another non Victorian side like eagles vs swans in 2005-6 for example.

Meeting another non-Vic side in the GF would be the most ideal for sure if you’re to make it. Removes any balance of home advantages/disadvantages for both sides.

 

[Freomaniac]

they just would be in another clubs zone. i cant speak for what the zones looked like before i was born but those guys just develop at a different club these days. we have nathan eagleton and i think shaun burgoyne's kids in our u/18's and u/16's. thats just how it is now.

i know for a fact that at westies we put a huge amount into player development that we will never see back. we have produced a few high draft picks (francis, rankine, thilthorpe) and seen other guys go through mid season drafts (snelling, noble) which for a club who hasnt made final since we won the grand final in 2015 and has basically spent the whole of the 2000's onwards nearly broke i would say indicates that the club definitely cares about development of players. fair to say we also feel fairly let down by the sanfl.

Intersting you are a Westies fan.
Surprised you said that since the early 2000s, west Adelaide were nearly broke.

They still have that pub outside of Richmond oval as a revenue stream via those pokies. No different to any other SANFL side.

Saying that, West Adelaide has made 3 grand finals since 2000. That was 2003, 2012 and 2015.

2003 Adam Cooney was pick 1. Byron Schammer went to Freo pick 12 in that 2002 draft.

I'm a south Adelaide Panthers fan. And like Westies, work on a tight budget and produce AFL hopefuls

 

[Freomaniac]

Meeting another non-Vic side in the GF would be the most ideal for sure if you’re to make it. Removes any balance of home advantages/disadvantages for both sides.

Well... That would of been interesting had crows won that 2006 prelim final vs the eagles.

Despite a substandard forward line, crows would of beaten the swans. Just had to kick 12-14 goals to do that.

Crows came within a goal of the Hawks in 2012. Would of faced the swans too if that happened.

Swans vs crows in the 2012 grand final? Swans would of been warm favourites based off that 2012 qualifying final game.

 

[Cuzz09]

I think if Sydney played any other Victorian team other than Geelong they probably win or at worst get within a couple of goals.

Geelong were just great in pretty much everything from the middle of the year on.



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[Timmy from Thomastown]

Kinda answered your own question then

Incompetent management.

 

[Back One Out]

Only 4 weeks ago, people were posting about the unfairness of Geelong finishing on top of the ladder and being disadvantaged from playing their Qualifying Final at Collingwood's home ground.

But when Geelong smash Sydney in the Grand Final, they become a Victorian team with the home advantage at the MCG

 

[Free Agent]

Make it 20 Sides. Bring Tassie yes. But not NT. I want Canberra/ACT in the comp instead

No to Canberra or ACT.

GC and GWS have caused enough damage with those sides becoming a Victoria free agency academy. Completely ruining the game and equalisation.

If we are going bring in new sides it needs to have a strong AFL football following so they are able to keep home grown talent on there own books for longer then two years

 

[Freomaniac]

No to Canberra or ACT.

GC and GWS have caused enough damage with those sides becoming a Victoria free agency academy. Completely ruining the game and equalisation.

If we are going bring in new sides it needs to have a strong AFL football following so they are able to keep home grown talent on there own books for longer then two years

well that is partially gws and the suns problem for over reliance on victorian players.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Again... Over the last decade, 8 of the 20 Grand Finalists (40%) and 17 of the 40 Preliminary Finalists (42%) have been interstate sides. They make up 44% of the comp, when you factor in the Giants and Suns finding their feet early in that period then that figure is about what you would expect.

They just haven't been able to get the job done on big the day in recent times.

So you are saying based on stats, victorian teams have an advantage at the MCG ??

 

[go_the_dockers]

The simple reason is that Victorian clubs are better run than most non-Victorian clubs and put their sides into positions to contend for longer.

I mean there's nothing stopping a non-Vic side finishing in the top 4 on the ladder. But this is the record since 2007 of number of top 4 finishes after the H&A season:

Sydney - 6
West Coast - 4
Brisbane - 3
Fremantle - 3
Port Adelaide - 3
Adelaide - 2
GWS - 2
Gold Coast - 0

Geelong - 13
Hawthorn - 8
Collingwood - 7
Richmond - 4
St Kilda - 3
Western Bulldogs - 3
Melbourne - 2
North Melbourne - 1
Carlton - 0
Essendon - 0

It's pretty clear from these stats that there are three Victorian teams putting themselves in the position to win more often than any non-Vic side over that period. It's no surprise these three sides have 14 grand final appearances and 9 wins as a result.

Of the rest we've got:

Sydney - 6 top 4 finishes, 4 grand finals, 1 win
Richmond - 4 top 4 finishes, 3 grand finals, 3 wins
West Coast - 4 top 4 finishes, 2 grand finals, 1 win
Western Bulldogs - 3 top 4 finishes, 2 grand finals, 1 win
St Kilda - 3 top 4 finishes, 2 grand finals, 0 wins
Fremantle - 3 top 4 finishes, 1 grand final, 0 wins
Brisbane - 3 top 4 finishes, 0 grand finals
Melbourne - 2 top 4 finishes, 1 grand final, 1 win
Adelaide - 2 top 4 finishes, 1 grand final, 0 wins
GWS - 2 top 4 finishes, 1 grand final, 0 wins
North Melbourne - 1 top 4 finish, 0 grand finals
Gold Coast, Carlton, Essendon - s**t

There's really nothing here that's all that unusual. Lesser sides make grand finals less often and win them less often. Richmond had a good strike rate after reaching the decider, Sydney did not. But then you realize Richmond played 2 sides below them on the "top 4 ladder" (1 above) versus Sydney facing only 1 side below them on the top 4 ladder (versus 3 above). That's basically what it boils down to.

The question is then, why are more victorian teams in the top 4.

 

[Free Agent]

well that is partially gws and the suns problem for over reliance on victorian players.

Incorrect. That's a league problem as GWS and GC have no home grown draft talent. They have to draft players from other states each season and mostly Vic draftees as its a tad closer to home. I can guarantee Freo are not winning no flags when the same 3 top Vic sides constantly get most of there players coming into there prime each season. Especially when you guys yourself lose 7 players and only get one coming back in Jackson. Interstate sides are competing against a machine now. Equalisation is way out of touch with this GWS and GC Vic Academy that's happening now since free agency.

 

[Magma]

Intersting you are a Westies fan.
Surprised you said that since the early 2000s, west Adelaide were nearly broke.

They still have that pub outside of Richmond oval as a revenue stream via those pokies. No different to any other SANFL side.

Saying that, West Adelaide has made 3 grand finals since 2000. That was 2003, 2012 and 2015.

2003 Adam Cooney was pick 1. Byron Schammer went to Freo pick 12 in that 2002 draft.

I'm a south Adelaide Panthers fan. And like Westies, work on a tight budget and produce AFL hopefuls

sorry i meant 2010 and onwards. the money from the foxtel cup final (probably one of the worst games i've seen and that's saying something) probably saved us. andy collins at least once dipped into his own pocket to pay transfer fees. it's tough for sanfl clubs, it's even tougher for the smaller ones like ours. unfortunately a lot of our issues are self inflicted with off field issues out the arse. the pub is lovely with great food but the staffing there is a ******* mess. firmly believe that clubs who dont get that stuff right will never be successful, cos it all trickles down. same at afl level. and the sanfl appointed board havent exactly nailed it since they came in. imo sanfl clubs are performing above what is provided to them because of the passion and commitment of those at the clubs at junior level.

 

[Freomaniac]

How many of those years did an non Victorian team lose a home preliminary final resulting in the Victorian team that beat them winning the flag?

2015 - Fremantle lost to Hawthorn
2016 - GWS lost to Western Bulldogs

Any I’m missing any?

They’ve had the opportunities, they just haven’t taken them.

tigers beat Port in the 2020 prelim final in adelaide oval. Tigers wont the flag vs the cats the next week

 

[Grin]

Interestingly prior to the 2017 Grand Final, the narrative in SA was that Adelaide don't lose Grand Finals (at the MCG). The day after, Grand Finals at the MCG became an insurmountable barrier, with some on this board bizarrely insisting that it's a minimum 20 goal home ground advantage for MCG tenants. Whilst this was obviously just bad sportsmanship and poor loser carry-on, this narrative of victimhood has taken a life of its own despite having precisely no evidence to back it up.

With regards to Stengle: The toxic culture at Adelaide has obviously persisted well past 2017. Merely months before Stengle's exit, the ex captain was casually referring to Aboriginal people as "black c****" with no awareness whatsoever that such language might possibly be offensive to the person it was aimed at. If that's the attitude of the club's leadership, it's hardly surprising that Aboriginal people struggle to strive in that environment.

 

[Freomaniac]

Incorrect. That's a league problem as GWS and GC have no home grown draft talent. They have to draft players from other states each season and mostly Vic draftees as its a tad closer to home. I can guarantee Freo are not winning no flags when the same 3 top Vic sides constantly get most of there players coming into there prime each season. Especially when you guys yourself lose 7 players and only get one coming back in Jackson. Interstate sides are competing against a machine now. Equalisation is way out of touch with this GWS and GC Vic Academy that's happening now since free agency.

Yeah well it's strange that Freo are losing 7 players but only 1 in Luke Jackson coming in.

But 2 players are delisted....

Connor Blakely was phased out and didn't play one game this year.

Joel western is 174 cm and 70 KG. Played 4 games late in 2021. Didn't think he was gonna make it.

It's Lobb and Logue that I am worried about as they are key position players.

Blake Acres is a solid player. I would be disappointed if he leaves, but we can cover him as we have some out side mid Depth

 

[Freomaniac]

Interestingly prior to the 2017 Grand Final, the narrative in SA was that Adelaide don't lose Grand Finals (at the MCG). The day after, Grand Finals at the MCG became an insurmountable barrier, with some on this board bizarrely insisting that it's a minimum 20 goal home ground advantage for MCG tenants. Whilst this was obviously just bad sportsmanship and poor loser carry-on, this narrative of victimhood has taken a life of its own despite having precisely no evidence to back it up.

With regards to Stengle: The toxic culture at Adelaide has obviously persisted well past 2017. Merely months before Stengle's exit, the ex captain was casually referring to Aboriginal people as "black c****" with no awareness whatsoever that such language might possibly be offensive to the person it was aimed at. If that's the attitude of the club's leadership, it's hardly surprising that Aboriginal people struggle to strive in that environment.

I think about that 2017 AFL Grand final....

It was more about the crows being (over) confident and in their minds blew a golden opportunity to get a flag.

Turns out 5 years later the better team won

 

[Soggy2112]

Interestingly prior to the 2017 Grand Final, the narrative in SA was that Adelaide don't lose Grand Finals (at the MCG).

I don’t recall this ever being the narrative. It got mentioned that we were yet to lose a GF, but did anyone seriously suggest we had some kind of edge in the GF? The last player from 98 retired in 2010.

 

[StevoJenkins]

Again... Over the last decade, 8 of the 20 Grand Finalists (40%) and 17 of the 40 Preliminary Finalists (42%) have been interstate sides. They make up 44% of the comp, when you factor in the Giants and Suns finding their feet early in that period then that figure is about what you would expect.

They just haven't been able to get the job done on big the day in recent times.

Home ground advantage is definitely a factor I think.

Victorian teams play at the MCG every second week, whereas my club plays there 2 times a year - with the rest of our games down there being at GHMBA (the rigged game we play each year) and Marvel. Pretty hard to succeed on the day when you're playing against a team that is more familiar with the ground.

 

[kranky al]

Interstate teams coast through the season on home ground advantage only to get found out when it matters.

Nothing to do with where the grand final is played, which I’m sure is what this thread will turn into. It’s an easy excuse.

The best the eagles have ever done at home is 9 games out of 12.

Where do the rest of the wins come from that get us to top 4, the only place we aare realistically going to win from?

Do we get secret home games?

Or is it a lot easier for an interstate team to fly across the country and play a melbourne team than the other way around? If so please explain your workings?