Why can't North afford to bottom out?

Roylion

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Clueless. The AFL engineered that Fitzroy would merge with Brisbane by making the deal so attractive that Brisbane couldn't turn it down. All because the AFL didn't want Fitzroy to merge with North and make us even stronger as we'd just won the flag. Despite most Fitzroy fans wanting to merge with North to remain in Melbourne.
Not quite correct. Brisbane had an offer on the table to Fitzroy long before North came on the scene and for less that what North wanted". Brisbane wrote the deal, not the AFL.
 

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Rod Stroker

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Not quite correct. Brisbane had an offer on the table to Fitzroy long before North came on the scene and for less that what North wanted". Brisbane wrote the deal, not the AFL.
The point is that the AFL still forced the Lions to Brisbane, for a lesser deal. And against the wishes of most Lions fans who wanted to stay in Melbourne.
 

Roylion

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The point is that the AFL still forced the Lions to Brisbane, for a lesser deal. And against the wishes of most Lions fans who wanted to stay in Melbourne.
The clubs had the final say. It was the clubs that wanted the lesser deal, because of the fears of a "super club". Leon Daphne of Richmond led the charge against a North - Fitzroy merge on the basis of player concessions. North didn't help by still insisting on 54 players or no merge", despite club opposition and Brisbane asking for only 44. There's a reason why the club no vote was 14 against 1 in favour.
 

Rod Stroker

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The clubs had the final say. It was the clubs that wanted the lesser deal, because of the fears of a "super club". Leon Daphne of Richmond led the charge against a North - Fitzroy merge on the basis of player concessions. North didn't help by still insisting on 54 players or no merge", despite club opposition and Brisbane asking for only 44. There's a reason why the club no vote was 14 against 1 in favour.
Yeah, shame on us for wanting to continue the careers of as many Fitzroy players as possible.
 

Roylion

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Yeah, shame on us for wanting to continue the careers of as many Fitzroy players as possible.
Yeah, but your statement that it was the AFL that forced Fitzroy to Brisbane is not exactly accurate.

1. The clubs had the final say on what happened. North knew that the tide of opinion was against the 54 player option before the meeting where the vote was held. And they chose to ignore that.
2. Fitzroy didn't go to Brisbane. In the end all Brisbane were given permission to do was rebrand from the Bears to the Lions. What the vote ended up being on was player concessions and other AFL benefits heading to the Bears.
 

Rob

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Why do so many North take offence to the failed North-Fitzroy merger? I would have thought they'd be happy they didn't merge given they won another flag as well as the change in AFL policy to prop everyone up indefinitely. Never seen any other club's fans unhappy that they *didn't* merge.
 

Roylion

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Why do so many North take offence to the failed North-Fitzroy merger? I would have thought they'd be happy they didn't merge given they won another flag as well as the change in AFL policy to prop everyone up indefinitely. Never seen any other club's fans unhappy that they *didn't* merge.
I'm a little puzzled by this as well. I'd give anything for Fitzroy to be in North's position now, as an imdependent entity in the AFL competition.

At times, and I hope I'm wrong here, the impression I get is that many (not all) North supporters think the North Fitzroy merger would have been a takeover by North and that the North Melbourne identity would have continued on almost unchanged. In other words there, there would be a temporary minor change to their identity, a boost to Norths finances and player stocks and then the gradual reintroduction of the full North identity.

I also get the impression that the outrage expressed by some North supporters that Fitzroy fans didn't get their preferred choice in a merger is also somewhat manufactured and often is really used as a excuse to criticize / bash Brisbane.
 
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Tassieboy

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Geography means nothing in Melbourne football and hasn't for decades.

All clubs play in the CBD. They don't belong to any area.

We've been hearing this entire western suburbs thing about the Bulldogs for 20 years now. FFS thy even changed their name. They haven't capitalised on it and they never will unless they play there and the locals can go to a game close by.

North have some issues but geography isn't one of them. It's a non issue.
North's issues, however, largely stem from geography realities in the 20th century.
 

Gigantor

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Why do so many North take offence to the failed North-Fitzroy merger? I would have thought they'd be happy they didn't merge given they won another flag as well as the change in AFL policy to prop everyone up indefinitely. Never seen any other club's fans unhappy that they *didn't* merge.
Agreed.

The Bears-Lions merger was a perfect fit on so many levels.
 

Gigantor

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For who? A great many Fitzroy supporters don't see it that way at all. Head down to the Brunswick Street Oval this afternoon and see and hear why.
I am reminded that in the year leading up to the demise of Fitzroy - the members got together (again) to talk about how they could save their club.

One bright spark got up and said: the best way to save the club was for all of us to go to every home game.

Another bright spark gave the obvious response: that's precisely the problem, we already all do go to every home game.

So the demise of Fitzroy confirmed as inevitable, within its own membership group - who could say honestly that North was waiting wings as a blue and white knight? ready to offer Fitzroy supporters everything they desired?

Surely what North was offering then, they continue to offer now? As a former Fitzroy supporter you can become a North member right now.
 

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Roylion

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I am reminded that in the year leading up to the demise of Fitzroy - the members got together (again) to talk about how they could save their club.

One bright spark got up and said: the best way to save the club was for all of us to go to every home game.

Another bright spark gave the obvious response: that's precisely the problem, we already all do go to every home game.
Hmm. I must have been busy attending FFC shareholders meetings that year.

So the demise of Fitzroy confirmed as inevitable, within its own membership group - who could say honestly that North was waiting wings as a blue and white knight? ready to offer Fitzroy supporters everything they desired?
Do you know any of the details that the North Melbourne and Fitzroy boards actually agreed to?

Surely what North was offering then, they continue to offer now? As a former Fitzroy supporter you can become a North member right now.
Why would I do that? North don't offer anything for a Fitzroy supporter over any other Melbourne based club. The "North Fitzroy Kangaroos" may well have done so.

My point remains. That the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy was the right merger on so many levels is disputed by many Fitzroy supporters. For who in particular?
 

Gigantor

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Hmm. I must have been busy attending FFC shareholders meetings that year.



Do you know any of the details that the North Melbourne and Fitzroy boards actually agreed to?



Why would I do that? North don't offer anything for a Fitzroy supporter over any other Melbourne based club. The "North Fitzroy Kangaroos" may well have done so.

My point remains. That the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy was the right merger on so many levels is disputed by many Fitzroy supporters. For who in particular?
That's sort of the point - you may have ended up with a club called North Fitzroy Kangaroos (may have) - and that's as far as North would have gone with recognising Fitztroy (and to be honest, they probably wouldn't even have gone that far).

The recognition of Fitzroy from the Bears-Lions merger is beyond the wildest expectations of even the most rabid Fitzroy supporter (as few as there were of those at the time) - no way in a million years would a Melbourne club have come close to doing the same (especially if they came to the partnership with the upper hand - as North did at the time, rubbing the other hand with it).

That's why I say, if a Fitzroy fan is keen on North, they can become a member of North to the present day (while they still have a presence of sorts in Victoria).
 

Roylion

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That's sort of the point - you may have ended up with a club called North Fitzroy Kangaroos (may have) - and that's as far as North would have gone with recognising Fitztroy (and to be honest, they probably wouldn't even have gone that far).
How do you know? Have you read the terms of the agreement that was reached and signed between the boards of North Melbourne and Fitzroy on July 4th 1996 and to last for a minimum of 20 years?

I have.

The terms agreed to would still be in force now. In fact until July 4th 2016.

The recognition of Fitzroy from the Bears-Lions merger is beyond the wildest expectations of even the most rabid Fitzroy supporter (as few as there were of those at the time) - no way in a million years would a Melbourne club have come close to doing the same (especially if they came to the partnership with the upper hand - as North did at the time, rubbing the other hand with it).
How do you know this? Have you seen the terms of the North Fitzroy agreement? By the sounds of it you haven't.

That's why I say, if a Fitzroy fan is keen on North, they can become a member of North to the present day (while they still have a presence of sorts in Victoria).
Why would they, as opposed to supporting another Melbourne based club, instead? There's nothing of Fitzroy's identity in North Melbourne.
 
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Lemma

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We definitely have deficiencies but people who think North are bottoming out haven't watched many of our games. Won 6 games this year (including smashing Adelaide), and lost 5 more by under a goal with one of the biggest injury lists in the league. We are far from a flag-quality list at the moment but I can't see us bottoming out any time soon.
 

Dogs till i die

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Previously it would have been because of debt levels and being a smaller club there would be a dedicated push (again) for relocation.

If in 2007 we'd finished in the bottom 8 there would now be the Gold Coast kangaroos and North would be dead.
I think debt was the main threat to North and the Dogs in years gone by but both have done great jobs in vastly reducing / eliminating their debts. I know the Dogs will be much better placed to withstand the inevitable bottom 4 finishes in the future if they can wipe out the remaining (much smaller) debt than we were 6-10 years ago.
 

Komrade_Tiger

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We definitely have deficiencies but people who think North are bottoming out haven't watched many of our games. Won 6 games this year (including smashing Adelaide), and lost 5 more by under a goal with one of the biggest injury lists in the league. We are far from a flag-quality list at the moment but I can't see us bottoming out any time soon.
the problem with that statement is the list turnover has just begun, the 'pain' hasn't even started.

it's going to get worse before it gets better
 

Lemma

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The list turnover has definitely started- played 11 debutants this year

You could be right though- but it's the only way to have sustained success. Our other option is to top up with middle of the road players and finish 10-12th for the next few years, which to be honest there is no point.
 

Rod Stroker

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the problem with that statement is the list turnover has just begun, the 'pain' hasn't even started.

it's going to get worse before it gets better
LOL!

since this insightful post in 2017, we've finished higher in 2018 and 2019, including just missing finals last year.
 

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