Why Carlton have been promising so much yet delivering so little for so long.

[Davey33]

List reasons why and how you think 2023 will be the same/different.

 

[Shane Heard]

What is this?….a Sunday night full of “ where are xyz team at?”

Seems like it

 

[Viceregal]

Same ... it's Carlton ... because they are Carlton.

 

[SBYM]

Excellent!!

One of those topics BF has ignored for far too long!

 

[RAPPA]

Can’t you smell what they’re cooking?

 

[Freomaniac]

I am not going into exact details on this.... Well... I might, sort of....

If anyone wants to know why Carlton has struggled in the last 20-25 years, its a combination of being Poorly run and bad luck. JUst like some other sides in the last 20-30 years too.

Carltons last flag was 1995. It was an old squad with Legends liek Criag Bradley, Stephen Kernahan and Greg Williams. etc.

Made finals in 1996, missed out on finals in 1997-8. Made a grand final in 1999, Prelim in 2000 and semi finals in 2001, Then Bottom in 2002.

Carlton in 1996-2001 did a similar tactic to what North Melbourne did in 2014-6, didnt draft a lot of kids, constantly topped up on established players.

When they finished Bottom in 2002, they had an ageing squad. They were denied 1st and 2nd rounders in 2002-4 because they Breached the salary cap for at least 3 years. So in 2002-3, they were bottom 2 and had no early picks to get young guns. They had to rely on 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th rounders to use in the Draft. Trading pick 35 for Heath Scotland

Heath Scotland

Age

42

Ht

182cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.6

5star

K

12.4

5star

HB

9.2

5star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.0

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

0.4

3star

in 2003 was a rare good thing Carlton did.

There was no Free agency or Mid season draft to help carlton. They wanted more picks, trade their best 22 players for a 2nd or 3rd rounder.


Then comes 2005. Thats when the 1st and 2nd rounders were not taken away from them. So from 2005-7, Carlton finished bottom. 2005 1st pick was Mark Murphy, 2006 was Bryce Gibbs and 2007 was Matt Kreuzer. Carlton thought that as long as you have pick 1, you are certain to get a Chris Judd type talent each season. Ironically, Chris Judd joined Carlton in a trade in 2007. Carlton offered Josh Kennedy, pick 3 and 20.


I have constantly compared Carltons 2002 situation to Adelaides situation in 2012. Both did get done for Salary cap breaches. But in a way, Both had various things that were for them or against them.

Carltons 2002 squad was an ageing squad. Had the Blues drafted well from 1997-2000, that would of been 6-12 blokes aged 21-24 years old to work with and possibly trade with. Carlton spent 2002-08 not making finals due to not having constant good kids in their team. If they did, they wouldnt of spent 2002-08 not making finals.

Adelaides 2012 situation was interesting too. But the main difference was in 2012, Crows had a good young lost of 21-24 year olds. They drafted well in the 2007, 2008 and 2019 drafts getting guys like Patrick Dangerfield, Rory Sloane

9

Rory Sloane

Age

33

Ht

183cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.7

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

11.9

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

6.6

5star

CL

5.7

5star

D

15.3

4star

K

7.3

3star

HB

8.0

4star

M

1.3

1star

T

3.3

4star

CL

4.2

5star

D

22.2

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

13.6

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

6.0

5star

CL

4.6

5star

, Taylor Walker

13

Taylor Walker

Age

32

Ht

194cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.7

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

6.4

3star

HB

1.6

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.6

5star

, Phil Davis

1

Phil Davis

Age

32

Ht

197cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.7

4star

MG

55.5

1star

D

8.5

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

1.3

2star

MG

55.5

1star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

, Daniel Talia

12

Daniel Talia

Age

31

Ht

197cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

169.9

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

2.5

2star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.1

2star

MG

187.6

3star

D

11.4

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.4

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

3.4

5star

and Jack Gunston

19

Jack Gunston

Age

31

Ht

193cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.5

4star

K

10.5

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

5.7

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.6

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.6

2star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

11.2

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.6

3star

etc. Some of those blokes were traded for 1st or 2nd rounders to help add new fresh talent to the crows.


Crows didnt make finals in 2013-4. Crows made finals in 2015-7.


I remember a carlton fan spoke about saying that 1st rounders wasnt the be all and end all to drafting. I think Thrawn started that thread. Im gonna go find it.

 

[Freomaniac]

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns your thoughts?

Is my post sort of an accurate situation of Carltons last 20 odd years?

 

[Freomaniac]

Yep finally found the thread I was looking for that was started by Thrawn . It was made back in 2007. and Thrawns opening post on the thread below was well worth the read and summed it up that pick 1 alone wont turn around a whole clubs fortunes.

Carlton’s soul exorcised, I am disappointed

Carlton used to be a club that emphasised passion and pride, above all else. Even the odd touch of arrogance was there but it was there for a reason because we used to be respected and feared. Now I see my club in its current state, struggling for the past six years and barely showing a whimper...

www.bigfooty.com

again.... a bloody good read.

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns Arr0w , click on that link and read thrawns post

 

[footyfan1978]

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns your thoughts?

Is my post sort of an accurate situation of Carltons last 20 odd years?

It is not a bad one from but sort of tails off after early 2000s into stuff less accurate but does not really matter as we were run terribly and still have to recover not only list issues that were massive but debts and loss of homeground. So it more than just one or two things. Ultimately you did start at right stage of after 1995 flag we never had an actual list management strategy for the draft era and how to replace the old stars in time. With Elliott at the helm from way before draft and salary cap era it easier to see how that happened in revision of it all. Ulimately we never actually had any real strategy until end of 2015 when we finally had a plan and put that in place for next three to four years of drafting. That been changed again in last three years but the good work that been done before is mostly still there and whether that plan is ****ed up only time will tell. Ultimately whatever list issues we had we had no luck in decades on injury front and you always need a little that way to really not stall at times.

In any case, only really replying to your specific post so not looked at thread before.

 

[footyfan1978]

Yep finally found the thread I was looking for that was started by Thrawn . It was made back in 2007. and Thrawns opening post on the thread below was well worth the read and summed it up that pick 1 alone wont turn around a whole clubs fortunes.

Carlton’s soul exorcised, I am disappointed

Carlton used to be a club that emphasised passion and pride, above all else. Even the odd touch of arrogance was there but it was there for a reason because we used to be respected and feared. Now I see my club in its current state, struggling for the past six years and barely showing a whimper...

www.bigfooty.com

again.... a bloody good read.

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns Arr0w , click on that link and read thrawns post

yeah, not for me. Been done to death hearing thoughts of other long time forum residents so in our forum itself and cannot wait for season to start and looking at a post from well before I been here does not really interest me in the present. Bring on Thursday night.

 

[Robertio]

Yep finally found the thread I was looking for that was started by Thrawn . It was made back in 2007. and Thrawns opening post on the thread below was well worth the read and summed it up that pick 1 alone wont turn around a whole clubs fortunes.

Carlton’s soul exorcised, I am disappointed

Carlton used to be a club that emphasised passion and pride, above all else. Even the odd touch of arrogance was there but it was there for a reason because we used to be respected and feared. Now I see my club in its current state, struggling for the past six years and barely showing a whimper...

www.bigfooty.com

again.... a bloody good read.

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns Arr0w , click on that link and read thrawns post

Yeah your post isn't too bad, in 2003 we were allowed a priority pick and drafted Andrew Walker at 2 and in 2004 we had a first round pick and drafted Jordon Russell at 7.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

List reasons why and how you think 2023 will be the same/different.

Because it's harder when you are no longer good at cheating... see Essendon

 

[Tiger2709]

Cash payments are harder to hide in plastic bags?

 

[VinnieB]

I just can't hate Carlton anymore.
I feel sorry for them.
So many of my Carlton mates have children who have been so demoralised, they changed teams. Mainly to Richmond.
So many wooden spoons. So many number 1 picks. Begging the AFL for assistance....

I'll pray for them.

 

[Thrawn]

Yep finally found the thread I was looking for that was started by Thrawn . It was made back in 2007. and Thrawns opening post on the thread below was well worth the read and summed it up that pick 1 alone wont turn around a whole clubs fortunes.

Carlton’s soul exorcised, I am disappointed

Carlton used to be a club that emphasised passion and pride, above all else. Even the odd touch of arrogance was there but it was there for a reason because we used to be respected and feared. Now I see my club in its current state, struggling for the past six years and barely showing a whimper...

www.bigfooty.com

again.... a bloody good read.

footyfan1978 , Elmer_Judd , Kreuuuzeurns Arr0w , click on that link and read thrawns post

And it stands true even to this day (don't know why it was locked though). Walsh is a machine but we did not make the finals, let alone the premiership, with him. Brian Cook is an astute operator and in the last couple of years we've finally started turning the corner off-field so hopefully it'll trickle down to some on-field success.

 

[Thrawn]

I just can't hate Carlton anymore.
I feel sorry for them.
So many of my Carlton mates have children who have been so demoralised, they changed teams. Mainly to Richmond.
So many wooden spoons. So many number 1 picks. Begging the AFL for assistance....

I'll pray for them.

 

[CrowToon]

List reasons why and how you think 2023 will be the same/different.

The easy answer would be their brimming talent on the list. However, at this point anyone would be entitled to think that Carlton will be the same old disappointment they have been for decades. Their list suggests otherwise but their resume is plain.

At the end of the day it is up to Carlton to prove they will be different. Most people would find it a tiresome debate to have again until something tangible changes.

 

[masai tu]

Carlton have really struggled since they started phasing out the use of chequebooks.

Footy is a game played between the ears, and it appears that the Blues are not able to put the foot down when required. Good top bunch of players, but compared to other teams it falls away from there.

Get their heads right, and you never know.

 

[Pistol Night]

Carlton have really struggled since they started phasing out the use of chequebooks.

Footy is a game played between the ears, and it appears that the Blues are not able to put the foot down when required. Good top bunch of players, but compared to other teams it falls away from there.

Get their heads right, and you never know.

Chequebooks? Nah that leaves a trace. Folding stuff only

 

[Juddernaut08]

In recent times, one of the big reasons is health. A lot of cap space tied up in perennially injured players. This leads to s**t depth...which means we lose a lot of games despite having a great Top 5 (Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Weitering).

I mean despite our vaunted midfield, our wings were cottrell/lob/newnes last year. There'd be VFL teams with similar wing talent.

 

[mike ross]

Carlton up until now have been going well in my opinion.

 

[Triggering Tiger]

Cash payments are harder to hide in plastic bags?

 

[Juddernaut08]

Carlton up until now have been going well in my opinion.

Perhaps now is the time for more clubs to follow Essendon*

 

[zyzzbruh]

List reasons why and how you think 2023 will be the same/different.

The same. And the reason is is very simple-

As someone who has grown up in a Carlton fam I have a soft spot for them and have been watching them avidly for the last 15 or so years. Since the malthouse days it has been clear as dogs balls that other than the main handful, Carlton's fringe players completely lack any accountability or maturity to step up when momentum isn't going their way. Hence the huge ebbs and flows in Carlton's games. Only reason they came close to finals last year is because that main handful is now quite strong.

Cripps will be getting ready to pick the team up on his shoulders again poor fella, Walsh being out will put the blues on the back foot early and they will lose games they should win. Aslong as they rely on blokes like Fisher, plowman, durdin, owies, O'Brien, Cunningham, Martin, young, Fogarty etc + a whole heap of other scrawny uninspiring fringe players, the blues will forever be making up the numbers. These guys throw in the towel and look lost whenever they don't feel upto it, which especially happens when being overrun by solid opposition. It's all between the ears, and they dissipate when the going gets tough. The squad is just not good enough.

Think about the quality in a premiership side and ask yourself if any of the above players would fit that standard. They might be able to carry one or two, but Carlton have a list full of them. And even though it was a praccy match, the lack of quality fringe players was on show again v swans last week. Lied down and didn't give a whimper. Hard to believe they were playing for a spot in the team. So same same by the looks of it.

 

[bourbons]

The same. And the reason is is very simple-

As someone who has grown up in a Carlton fam I have a soft spot for them and have been watching them avidly for the last 15 or so years. Since the malthouse days it has been clear as dogs balls that other than the main handful, Carlton's fringe players completely lack any accountability or maturity to step up when momentum isn't going their way. Hence the huge ebbs and flows in Carlton's games. Only reason they came close to finals last year is because that main handful is now quite strong.

Cripps will be getting ready to pick the team up on his shoulders again poor fella, Walsh being out will put the blues on the back foot early and they will lose games they should win. Aslong as they rely on blokes like Fisher, plowman, durdin, owies, O'Brien, Cunningham, Martin, young, Fogarty etc + a whole heap of other scrawny uninspiring fringe players, the blues will forever be making up the numbers. These guys throw in the towel and look lost whenever they don't feel upto it, which especially happens when being overrun by solid opposition. It's all between the ears, and they dissipate when the going gets tough. The squad is just not good enough.

Think about the quality in a premiership side and ask yourself if any of the above players would fit that standard. They might be able to carry one or two, but Carlton have a list full of them. And even though it was a praccy match, the lack of quality fringe players was on show again v swans last week. Lied down and didn't give a whimper. Hard to believe they were playing for a spot in the team. So same same by the looks of it.

Bit of truth in this, unfortunately. I'm a Fisher fan but perfect example last night, kicks a great first goal then completely unsighted for the rest of the night while the Richmond smalls are smashing us at ground level, honestly had to check if he'd been subbed off.

Bottom 6-8 still looks pretty diabolical.