Analysis Why did we stop running in 2nd half? (2nd Showdown 2019)

mistylake

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Port definately looked the fitter side, with their physicality, spread, and numbers around the ball, as per v Geelong
What happens with this fitness thing next week when we turn it around, we’ve finished strongly V Richmond and GWS before the bye. Our fitness can’t go up and down week to week, it’s something else missing, it’s located in the upper chest and pumps blood. But I mean in the metaphorical sense.
 

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Simmo28

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Your missing the point. Currently the team is not playing as a team. I have seen enough football to know a team that plays with pride and passion for the guernsey and one another. There is something inherently broken at this club. The club has slowly decayed over a long period of time propped up by a large supporter base that hopes for success but demands very little. Sure we have had the occasional year where we get our hopes up only to be dashed when it comes time to deliver. Unfortunately while you have people running an organisation who are inherently selfish you will find that this attitude permeates through the whole organisation including the playing group. The whole afl industry knows we are a franchise with no heart and that hurts as a supporter. Many of us are sick of it and ready to move on from supporting this club. You can discuss our lack of run infinitum but until the real problems which exist from chairman down are dealt with you are just wasting your time and mobile phone batteries discussing it.
While I don’t disagree the club has missed its opportunities for success I argue that the people running the club would be wanting the flags as much as we do. They are not sitting back saying “hey let’s aim for 7th, and bow out in second round of finals”. The problem is that the people we have are not good enough to get us to the flag we so desperately want.


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Simmo28

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Not much said here on selection policy. I picked this would happen pre game based on the Geelong fade out.

CEY went out and still no midfielder has come in, Wilson keeps carving it up but can’t buy a call up. And if we’re expecting Mackay and Dougie to fill the void then f*** me.

Also JJ just doesn’t play injured, either play some else till he’s fit or remove him from the list completely, just don’t play him injured.

Another thing, no cover for Lynch at all. Bring in the highly unlikely Davis, one of the more confusing debuts in the clubs history, spuds it up - back to the drawing board with nothing but the Dougie/Mackay solution.

After two weeks of trying absolutely nothing to improve our game questions must be asked. And this coming off a bye too. GC game is now more interesting than it needs to be, a loss will draw the worst kind of attention for all concerned.
A loss to GC comes with its own rewards.


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footy4ever

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Why’d we stop running? Because we spent our petrol tickets in the first half to kick 4.11. Instead of icing the game by half time, we gave a sucker an even chance and went on to show why that’s even a saying.

That, and because we were s**t.
 

Murray2503

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Until he doesn't win a flag in the first few years so the players all give up, again.
Get blighty in again. He will win 2 flags quickly then take off. :) I'm happy with that. Being serious i feel this club needs someone that has come from a very strong culture and the players will have no excuses. Clarko would be perfect but he would never come. The number 1 aspect a coach needs is to be liked and respected. The coach can be a real prick and the players love him if the coach is relatable and authentic. The players need to believe in a coach and have faith and total commitment. I can tell Pyke doesn't command that. Said it many times before that there will be no flag under Pyke. I also feel our older core that is jaded needs to go before there is the youthful total buy-in of a new playing group that believes they can achieve the ultimate. Way too much faith has been placed in the wrong experienced core that has proven to fail at every hurdle. We overinvested in a tilt as though the club believed we may not be there again for some time. That overinvestment in experience is now being felt.
 
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Jarman3

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First half was a pretty good game, both sides having a crack, Port slightly ahead in most stats, but we had more shots thanks to better efficiency going forward. Overall, the margin was probably a fair reflection of the game.

I don't know WTF went on in the change rooms at half time, because we were a completely different side after that. Just looked completely disinterested. I suspect Pyke was about to give a stirring half time address, then Burton or Campo or somebody did a Waylon Smithers... "I have some sad news to report. A small puppy, not unlike Lassie, was just run over in the parking lot. And now over to you, Don."
 

Murray2503

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First half was a pretty good game, both sides having a crack, Port slightly ahead in most stats, but we had more shots thanks to better efficiency going forward. Overall, the margin was probably a fair reflection of the game.

I don't know WTF went on in the change rooms at half time, because we were a completely different side after that. Just looked completely disinterested. I suspect Pyke was about to give a stirring half time address, then Burton or Campo or somebody did a Waylon Smithers... "I have some sad news to report. A small puppy, not unlike Lassie, was just run over in the parking lot. And now over to you, Don."
That 2nd half was partly our coaching but a majority of it (80%) needs to be put on the leaders and experienced players of the club. They went to water as they went to water in the 2017 GF and every subsequent game that matters. They are total downhill frontrunning pretenders.
 

Thetrader15

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I noticed most of Port's shots at goal for the whole game were set shots, while we were taking shots from general field play.

We don't lower our eyes going forward enough and I don't think we have enough composure of skill kicking to our forwards. As I say every week, look at the delivery to Tex. Tony Lockett wouldn't mark half the passes Tex gets.

It's interesting to see how we set up too. Tex is one on one, but then Murphy is usually about 15m to the side of him. What seems to happen is Tex then leads to the boundary, and Murphy's player comes as second man up, and the ball goes out of bounds. I'd rather a Greenwood plays close to Tex. He's good on the ground, but can take a mark too, meaning his opposition player can't just peel off every time, they will have to defend him.

If I'm a defender too, the last thing I want is to see JJ in the square with the whole 50m arc to himself. Play him from the square and kick long to him.

From what I see, the forward structure is too easy to defend. I don't think it is the personnel, it's the structure that's the issue, and thus is the....forward line coach!
 

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Big Gazoongas

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Yep, that was a “coach killer” performance. The type where you question if the players are still playing for the coach. Able to get up for occasion initially, but once challenged, there was no fight, we just capitulated. Does not bode well for the rest of the year.
You would have to have the mental capacity of worm to be invested is such a garbage game plan.

No overlapping run, slow and stagnant ball movement, constantly kick to a contest even when players have worked their ass off to get into space to receive the ball, constantly kicking into pockets.
Structure is non existent. Serve up the same rubbish even when its failed time and time again.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fall out from last year has continued this year.

Our better players will be a year older next year.

We have totally ballsed up any opportunity to bounce back from 2017 and contend again.....window firmly shut.

We have some tough years.......but the light at the end of the tunnel is:
Chapman will continue to lead us to further mediocrity without accountability.
Fagan has failed to deliver the best footy program and we continue to hire novices in key roles......Burton.
Pyke's game plan is rubbish but we will persist with it regardless.

and the best part of all is that the payed up members can do SFA about it while those accountable to themselves go on their merry way.
 

azza77

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Unfortunately there’s a lot of changes that probably need to be made before Pyke. We have a non-football Chairman and CEO, which leaves Ricciuto as “king maker” from a footballing sense, especially since he’s installed an inexperienced/incompetent mate as head of football. We’re then stuck with a rusted on senior assistant who’s on his 5th senior coach, having spent time as caretaker himself as well. We’ve then got a forward line coach who couldn’t find a job anywhere else despite >10 years experience as an assistant and was only out there because we couldn’t find anyone else. Then we’ve got Mattner and Godden as 1st year assistants.

Chapman’s not going anywhere unfortunately and I’m happy with Fagan as CEO as long as we have a strong and capable Head of Football.

From there it gets really complicated. Given Pykes experiences, he’s someone who as senior coach would probably want to effectively assume the role of “head of football” anyway, answering directly to Fagan, with “head of football” reporting to him(it’s probably more Football operations manager), if we even needed one. I would expect similar would already be happening at Hawthorn with Clarkson.

From there though we need a senior assistant who probably needs to be able to take on the “day to day” coaching stuff and would be the 2ic in the structure. This is where Campo’s at currently, but probably needs to be moved on and we need to invest heavily IMO in a “senior coach in waiting”. Depending how things go, this person could potentially assuming senior coaching duties with Pyke moving into a more senior “head of football” role down the line. It would need to be well paid to attract the ideal candidates which is where we fall down I suspect.

Essentially id look at:
Out: Campo, Hart, Burton
Shuffle Clark perhaps to the “head of football” role reporting to Pyke directly.
Not sure re Godden. Mattner stays.
From there we’d bring in a senior assistant, forward +/- midfield coach.
I've just made a similar post/rant in the changes thread about this topic and our coaching structure. It's an interesting topic and I agree with a lot of what you've said.
 

Thetrader15

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You would have to have the mental capacity of worm to be invested is such a garbage game plan.

No overlapping run, slow and stagnant ball movement, constantly kick to a contest even when players have worked their ass off to get into space to receive the ball, constantly kicking into pockets.
Structure is non existent. Serve up the same rubbish even when its failed time and time again.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fall out from last year has continued this year.

Our better players will be a year older next year.

We have totally ballsed up any opportunity to bounce back from 2017 and contend again.....window firmly shut.

We have some tough years.......but the light at the end of the tunnel is:
Chapman will continue to lead us to further mediocrity without accountability.
Fagan has failed to deliver the best footy program and we continue to hire novices in key roles......Burton.
Pyke's game plan is rubbish but we will persist with it regardless.

and the best part of all is that the payed up members can do SFA about it while those accountable to themselves go on their merry way.
A good point on the 'best football program' - This was one of Fagan's big things, but it seems we can't attract decent coaches. It's been like that for a number of years. The exception is Francou, who I think is a good coach, but left when he was put back in his box.

I'd be looking at Josh Carr for fwd coach next year, although on the very slim chance he accepted the offer, he'd soon suffer the Francou treatment.
 

TheLeftFist8

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I noticed most of Port's shots at goal for the whole game were set shots, while we were taking shots from general field play.

We don't lower our eyes going forward enough and I don't think we have enough composure of skill kicking to our forwards. As I say every week, look at the delivery to Tex. Tony Lockett wouldn't mark half the passes Tex gets.

It's interesting to see how we set up too. Tex is one on one, but then Murphy is usually about 15m to the side of him. What seems to happen is Tex then leads to the boundary, and Murphy's player comes as second man up, and the ball goes out of bounds. I'd rather a Greenwood plays close to Tex. He's good on the ground, but can take a mark too, meaning his opposition player can't just peel off every time, they will have to defend him.

If I'm a defender too, the last thing I want is to see JJ in the square with the whole 50m arc to himself. Play him from the square and kick long to him.

From what I see, the forward structure is too easy to defend. I don't think it is the personnel, it's the structure that's the issue, and thus is the....forward line coach!
Great points about forward structure but I'd add the fact that Walker has to be physically and mentally 100% before he will bother to lead and compete aerially.

He's lazy (as is Jenkins), they don't lead hard to the ball and certainly don't like the pack situation...Walker doesn't even use both hands most of the time which should get him dragged.

Tex had a fantastic 1.25 games when it looked like the old swagger and intensity was back, then he hurt his elbow and suddenly all the bravado is gone again.
 

Thetrader15

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Great points about forward structure but I'd add the fact that Walker has to be physically and mentally 100% before he will bother to lead and compete aerially.

He's lazy (as is Jenkins), they don't lead hard to the ball and certainly don't like the pack situation...Walker doesn't even use both hands most of the time which should get him dragged.

Tex had a fantastic 1.25 games when it looked like the old swagger and intensity was back, then he hurt his elbow and suddenly all the bravado is gone again.
As I said, I watch Tex closely as I know he gets a lot of criticism.

Most of the time he leads slowly, I think because he is too close to the boundary to start with, or too close to the player kicking the ball. Usually, he starts to lead, but then stops and makes body contact, trying to protect the space, afterwhich his player usually grabs his arm. He should get a free kick, but is starting to play for it and the umpire ignores it, even when he does deserve a free.

9 time out of 10, the kick is well over his head. When was the last time he lead to the ball and had to dive to get the ball. Never - it's always above his head, or over the top. Who'd want to be a forward with kicks like that.

The fact that only Lynch leads forward suggests to me that it's a coaching instruction. I think we are still trying to get the ball over the top, but the other teams are too good at stopping it.

Tex is not a contested marking player, he's a leading player, and that's what the coaches should be asking him to do and designing the style around that.

Final point:

Don's always seemed to be a 'this is the best game style, get the players to play this way". I prefer "these are the best players, this is the best way to get them to play"
 

MRB37

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As I said, I watch Tex closely as I know he gets a lot of criticism.

Most of the time he leads slowly, I think because he is too close to the boundary to start with, or too close to the player kicking the ball. Usually, he starts to lead, but then stops and makes body contact, trying to protect the space, afterwhich his player usually grabs his arm. He should get a free kick, but is starting to play for it and the umpire ignores it, even when he does deserve a free.

9 time out of 10, the kick is well over his head. When was the last time he lead to the ball and had to dive to get the ball. Never - it's always above his head, or over the top. Who'd want to be a forward with kicks like that.

The fact that only Lynch leads forward suggests to me that it's a coaching instruction. I think we are still trying to get the ball over the top, but the other teams are too good at stopping it.

Tex is not a contested marking player, he's a leading player, and that's what the coaches should be asking him to do and designing the style around that.

Final point:

Don's always seemed to be a 'this is the best game style, get the players to play this way". I prefer "these are the best players, this is the best way to get them to play"
We, like a lot of teams now, lead to the boundary sides because you're not actually trying to score as the number one priority. You're trying not to cause a turnover in the middle of the ground which can get you scored against quickly and easily. So you push the game out down the wings and to the pockets because it gives you the boundary as a safety net should you lose possession of the ball. This isn't a scenario our forwards work well in though, you need contested markers, we've got Tex who is a lead out forward and JJ who would prefer to be in open play rather than taking contested marks.

I get why Pyke had to change aspects of the gameplan because we just can't replicate that 2017 playstyle anymore, which our team seems to still be built for, but we don't have the players, especially up forward to consistently pull it off. Good teams get us moving the ball so slowly that most players take the bomb and hope entry inside 50, which is never to our advantage unless we fluke a mark. Most of our shots against Port were quick scrubs out of a pack in a massively congested forward line, look at Ports where they got easy marks inside 50. The question will be does list management move on a few guys like JJ who don't work in this ultra-defensive style of gameplay? Or do they just keep plugging away with them hoping they turn it around? We've got a few guys like Fogarty and McAdam who'd probably work better, but neither of them fill the second ruck void they're afraid to lose either.
 

Thetrader15

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We, like a lot of teams now, lead to the boundary sides because you're not actually trying to score as the number one priority. You're trying not to cause a turnover in the middle of the ground which can get you scored against quickly and easily. So you push the game out down the wings and to the pockets because it gives you the boundary as a safety net should you lose possession of the ball. This isn't a scenario our forwards work well in though, you need contested markers, we've got Tex who is a lead out forward and JJ who would prefer to be in open play rather than taking contested marks.

I get why Pyke had to change aspects of the gameplan because we just can't replicate that 2017 playstyle anymore, which our team seems to still be built for, but we don't have the players, especially up forward to consistently pull it off. Good teams get us moving the ball so slowly that most players take the bomb and hope entry inside 50, which is never to our advantage unless we fluke a mark. Most of our shots against Port were quick scrubs out of a pack in a massively congested forward line, look at Ports where they got easy marks inside 50. The question will be does list management move on a few guys like JJ who don't work in this ultra-defensive style of gameplay? Or do they just keep plugging away with them hoping they turn it around? We've got a few guys like Fogarty and McAdam who'd probably work better, but neither of them fill the second ruck void they're afraid to lose either.
I agree we need to get a contested Tom Hawkins style forward in there. Tex goes a good job at not being out marked, which is probably his #1 KPI. However, if we do this, we need to get some smalls in there who know how to crumb. Murphy tries hard and is ok for defensive pressure, but other than Eddie who struggles to get to contests, we don't have any crumbers.
This is why I'd push for Stengle to play, he's a natural small forward. Sure, he may be slow with the defensive side if he's not match fit, but we also need another small forward who can crumb and apply forward pressure.

So:

FF: Stengle JJ Greenwood
HF: Lynch Tex McHenry

Betts can have a couple of weeks off to get right. We need to be smarter and manage him so he is right for the finals.
 

John Who

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I agree we need to get a contested Tom Hawkins style forward in there. Tex goes a good job at not being out marked, which is probably his #1 KPI. However, if we do this, we need to get some smalls in there who know how to crumb. Murphy tries hard and is ok for defensive pressure, but other than Eddie who struggles to get to contests, we don't have any crumbers.
This is why I'd push for Stengle to play, he's a natural small forward. Sure, he may be slow with the defensive side if he's not match fit, but we also need another small forward who can crumb and apply forward pressure.

So:

FF: Stengle JJ Greenwood
HF: Lynch Tex McHenry

Betts can have a couple of weeks off to get right. We need to be smarter and manage him so he is right for the finals.
I agree with trialling Stengle with or without Eddie. We’re putting a lot of the blame on the tall forwards in Tex and JJ, when there are other significant issues such as:
- ridiculous and comical forward entries
- poor kicking to the disadvantage of our forwards
- lack of elite crumbing presence
- lack of quality goal conversion.

We have good defenders up forward who have good pace in Gooch, Murphy and Jones. Though we need to have natural small forwards who knows how to crumb AND goal.
 

robboaustralia

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We dropped so many marks. Got hands on it first grab but spilt it and port just ran away with the ball while we were flat footed.
 
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robboaustralia

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That 2nd half was partly our coaching but a majority of it (80%) needs to be put on the leaders and experienced players of the club. They went to water as they went to water in the 2017 GF and every subsequent game that matters. They are total downhill frontrunning pretenders.
That second half had a very grand final like feeling to it being at both games. Just didn't have to listen to "oh were from tigerland" 38 times in a row this time.

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Murray2503

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I agree we need to get a contested Tom Hawkins style forward in there. Tex goes a good job at not being out marked, which is probably his #1 KPI. However, if we do this, we need to get some smalls in there who know how to crumb. Murphy tries hard and is ok for defensive pressure, but other than Eddie who struggles to get to contests, we don't have any crumbers.
This is why I'd push for Stengle to play, he's a natural small forward. Sure, he may be slow with the defensive side if he's not match fit, but we also need another small forward who can crumb and apply forward pressure.

So:

FF: Stengle JJ Greenwood
HF: Lynch Tex McHenry

Betts can have a couple of weeks off to get right. We need to be smarter and manage him so he is right for the finals.
Look what wce have done. Rioli, Ryan and now Cameron. We have a cooked Betts and Murphy who exerts a lot of energy doing very little. We need to get Stengle and McAdam up to speed asap.
 

TheLeftFist8

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Look what wce have done. Rioli, Ryan and now Cameron. We have a cooked Betts and Murphy who exerts a lot of energy doing very little. We need to get Stengle and McAdam up to speed asap.
Good call.

I’d add Davis and McHenry to that mix, plus Jones when not in midfield.

We have the talent in the squad, some are ready to play NOW


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Ramify

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Get blighty in again. He will win 2 flags quickly then take off. :) I'm happy with that. Being serious i feel this club needs someone that has come from a very strong culture and the players will have no excuses. Clarko would be perfect but he would never come. The number 1 aspect a coach needs is to be liked and respected. The coach can be a real prick and the players love him if the coach is relatable and authentic. The players need to believe in a coach and have faith and total commitment. I can tell Pyke doesn't command that. Said it many times before that there will be no flag under Pyke. I also feel our older core that is jaded needs to go before there is the youthful total buy-in of a new playing group that believes they can achieve the ultimate. Way too much faith has been placed in the wrong experienced core that has proven to fail at every hurdle. We overinvested in a tilt as though the club believed we may not be there again for some time. That overinvestment in experience is now being felt.
Get in Luke Hodges ear.
Couldn't stand him as an opposition player but his ability to lead and inspire are second to none. Doubt Clarko would have had half the success he did during his golden period without Hodge.
He is dirty, ruthless and hard as nails which IMO are all taits this club had needed for a bloody long time.Added bonus is his football intelect.
He would probably fail our Psych assessment though unfortunately.
 
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