Society/Culture Why do the working class hate unions?

[Fat Yak]

How?

Unrealistic demands and high wages, Nissan bailed first and sent their manufacturing to Thailand.

 

[CM86]

Unrealistic demands and high wages, Nissan bailed first and sent their manufacturing to Thailand.

What were the unrealistic demands?

Why are high wages bad? Wasn't Shorten condemned as a 'sellout' for accepting lower wages in a very specific area, just to ensure continued employment?

 

[Fat Yak]

What were the unrealistic demands?

Why are high wages bad? Was Shorten condemned for accepting lower wages in a very specific area, just to ensure continued employment?

Lazy sloppy workmanship, union demands, billions of $$$ tax payers money to prop up a failed business model, do your own research it's out there.

 

[CM86]

Lazy sloppy workmanship, union demands, billions of $$$ tax payers money to prop up a failed business model, do your own research it's out there.

When did the union demand "lazy sloppy workmanship"?
Why was "union demands" an unrealistic union demand?

Unions don't control billions of tax payers money. How did unions asking to prop up failed business models... cause the collapse of the business? That's a contradictory statement.

I've done plenty of research... Which is why I asked you how... And it's why you've replied with non sequiters, and told me to look for evidence to support your claim, that you can't find.




You said the unions ****ed the car industry... and your reasoning was that they asked the Government to support a failed business model... That sounds like the car industry ****ed the car industry... not the unions.
By your own words...

 

[Pessimistic]

Weve done this somewhere before

 

[Evolved1]

The working class have been brainwashed into forming a mistrust towards unions and the perception of them as outdated and extreme, as you can see in many of the posts on this thread.

Where has that brainwashing derived from? Mostly right wing politicians, certain parts of the media, and businesses who have an agenda against unions.

If you think that your employer will preference your best interests over their own, you probably need the lesson that's coming your way.

Let's not forget that large organisations have access to legal and HR resources that give them a significant advantage over you if you go it alone, and statistics show that collective negotiation provides better outcomes than individual negotiation when it comes to working conditions and payrises.

 

[Evolved1]

Decades of mainstream media and Liberal Party anti-union garbage and using/creating racism and discrimination to make stupid people think rich Anglos are "our side".

A hallmark of the John Howard years, which the middle class accepted due to the carrot of middle class welfare.

 

[Evolved1]

Do we need to encourage the formation of unions for gig economy workers? Eg Uber Eats drivers operating on a net loss. There's a can of worms...

I can't see any reason not to.

 

[Madison]

The working class have been brainwashed into forming a mistrust towards unions and the perception of them as outdated and extreme, as you can see in many of the posts on this thread.

Where has that brainwashing derived from? Mostly right wing politicians, certain parts of the media, and businesses who have an agenda against unions.

If you think that your employer will preference your best interests over their own, you probably need the lesson that's coming your way.

Let's not forget that large organisations have access to legal and HR resources that give them a significant advantage over you if you go it alone, and statistics show that collective negotiation provides better outcomes than individual negotiation when it comes to working conditions and payrises.

Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this thread. Unions may not have achieved much extra since things like a 40 hours work week, super, mat leave, sick leave etc. But people are kidding themselves if they think businesses want to keep these things. Business will pay the bare minimum they have to. They have no desire to pay workers extra, or for maternity leave, or give you annual leave. All they care about is maximizing share holder profits and corporate management wages. If they could pay people $1 an hour they would. You just have to look at the US where there is very low union involvement and you can see how things end up for the worker. You've got something like 50% of Americans who can't afford an unexpected $500 bill.

I've no doubt that there are some things the unions need to clean up, but without unions the worker has very little ability to force or prevent change.

 

[CatFan79]

Where has that brainwashing derived from? Mostly right wing politicians, certain parts of the media, and businesses who have an agenda against unions.

Do you have that much disregard for the intelligence of unionists? LOL.

Rife corruption and blatant self interest of leaders is what's turned people away from unions.

 

[its free real estate]

You just have to look at the US where there is very low union involvement and you can see how things end up for the worker. You've got something like 50% of Americans who can't afford an unexpected $500 bill.

the US had extraordinarily strong unions, even stronger ones than Australia. Difference is that over there capital has always had a pool of workers they could pay less, which the Australian union movement nipped in the bud over 100 years ago.

 

[QuietB]

Beware those that pretend to help you


Govt fks over aborigines and takes their land

Church fks your kids

Unions steal your opportunities, keep the unemployed down........who do you think pays for their clip?

Unions have a role to play, an important role. But like the IRA, the cause becomes themselves.



Keep unions but regulate with an iron fist

And who do the corporations represent?

1/ More and more profit directed to executive pay.
2/ More and more profit directed to shareholder returns.
3/ More and more jobs moved off shore - blue collar jobs, admin. jobs and now white collar jobs.
4/ Less and less investment.
5/ Less and less distributed as workers wages.

But yeah, unions are bad

 

[Madison]

the US had extraordinarily strong unions, even stronger ones than Australia. Difference is that over there capital has always had a pool of workers they could pay less, which the Australian union movement nipped in the bud over 100 years ago.

They defs used to have strong unions but I think I remember reading their membership is at all time lows and there is no doubt that these days they hold very little power in general. And it would interesting to see a graph of the two but I'd be willing to bet that as union power has shrunk the inequality has risen with great correlation.

And who do the corporations represent?

1/ More and more profit directed to executive pay.
2/ More and more profit directed to shareholder returns.
3/ More and more jobs moved off shore - blue collar jobs, admin. jobs and now white collar jobs.
4/ Less and less investment.
5/ Less and less distributed as workers wages.

But yeah, unions are bad

You only have to look at the royal commission into banking to see how corporations truly operate. And the liberals voted against it 26 times. Who's interests do you think these people are representing? You think they are going to volunteer to give people better penalty rates or a shorter working week or appropriate overtime or maternity leave? I know the royal commission was into customers as opposed to staff but it shows the mentality, it's all about greed.

 

[Power Raid]

And who do the corporations represent?

1/ More and more profit directed to executive pay.
2/ More and more profit directed to shareholder returns.
3/ More and more jobs moved off shore - blue collar jobs, admin. jobs and now white collar jobs.
4/ Less and less investment.
5/ Less and less distributed as workers wages.

But yeah, unions are bad

The dumb answer is corporations represent shareholders.

Corporations on a very simplistic basis carry on a business. That business tries to sell goods or services to the market place. The executive presents a strategy to achieve the objective and the board ratify the strategy and budgets.

The corporation presents this to the investment market place and receive funding. These funders are called shareholders or otherwise known as people.

The corporation then executes its strategy and the consumer market (people) decides to purchase or not purchase the goods. Based on this response the corporation adjusts to reflect the needs of the people.



Corporations, businesses, sole practitioners and trades people are 90% of the time really good at executing their business strategies in a way consistent with the value of society. That's not surprising, as the shareholders, employees and board are members of society.

We also know that corporations, like society, need regulation. That's why we have laws and unions.

We also know unions, governments and churches attract "wolves", "sheep" and go rogue. We need unions, government and churches (even if it pains me to include the last) but we shouldn't be blind to the fact that those that "those that pretend to help" are often the most dangerous.

Take a look at foreign aid NGOs and their link to military intelligence, churches *ing kids and their link to wars, union and their stand over tactics, racketeering and stealing from their members.



but then again perhaps crime is OK provided it is a robin hood type thing right? So benevolent right?

 

[Power Raid]

In WA
We saw pos like this indulging in thuggery and standover tactics
View attachment 732388

I wonder how he acquired such a lovely home

 

[QuietB]

The dumb answer is corporations represent shareholders.

Corporations on a very simplistic basis carry on a business. That business tries to sell goods or services to the market place. The executive presents a strategy to achieve the objective and the board ratify the strategy and budgets.

The corporation presents this to the investment market place and receive funding. These funders are called shareholders or otherwise known as people.

The corporation then executes its strategy and the consumer market (people) decides to purchase or not purchase the goods. Based on this response the corporation adjusts to reflect the needs of the people.



Corporations, businesses, sole practitioners and trades people are 90% of the time really good at executing their business strategies in a way consistent with the value of society. That's not surprising, as the shareholders, employees and board are members of society.

We also know that corporations, like society, need regulation. That's why we have laws and unions.

We also know unions, governments and churches attract "wolves", "sheep" and go rogue. We need unions, government and churches (even if it pains me to include the last) but we shouldn't be blind to the fact that those that "those that pretend to help" are often the most dangerous.

Take a look at foreign aid NGOs and their link to military intelligence, churches f*n kids and their link to wars, union and their stand over tactics, racketeering and stealing from their members.



but then again perhaps crime is OK provided it is a robin hood type thing right? So benevolent right?

Do you have that much disregard for the intelligence of unionists? LOL.

Rife corruption and blatant self interest of leaders is what's turned people away from unions.

Multiple royal commissions into the unions have uncovered SFA. The banking royal commission has been mothballed.

Crime is obviously perfectly ok Depending on who does it yeah?

So whilst your post might be enlightening for a primary school kid, it does not address why working class people support corporations and their puppet government first and why they hate unions?

Although to your credit you did mention sheep

 

[Power Raid]

Multiple royal commissions into the unions have uncovered SFA. The banking royal commission has been mothballed.

Crime is obviously perfectly ok Depending on who does it yeah?

So whilst your post might be enlightening for a primary school kid, it does not address why working class people support corporations and their puppet government first and why they hate unions?

Although to your credit you did mention sheep

It’s interesting to see that there have been unions wound up due to crime and corruption.

It is interesting despite becoming more sophisticated with lawyers, unions continue to be found guilty of breaking the law.

Yet nothing to see here apparently!


Unions are important, that’s why we should have stronger laws and better regulatory oversight. Perhaps then, they will become more relevant to this century and the people they are supposed to represent.

 

[QuietB]

It’s interesting to see that there have been unions wound up due to crime and corruption.

It is interesting despite becoming more sophisticated with lawyers, unions continue to be found guilty of breaking the law.

Yet nothing to see here apparently!


Unions are important, that’s why we should have stronger laws and better regulatory oversight. Perhaps then, they will become more relevant to this century and the people they are supposed to represent.

So unions break the law every now and then. That is partly because the law is specifically written to stop unions operating but I digress.

Corporations break the law as well and regularly. And get slapped with a lettuce leaf by their own "self regulators".

So you still have not addressed why unions are completely and entirely demonised and corporations and the like are given a free pass?

It is one of the great snow jobs.

 

[owen87]

corporations and the like are given a free pass

Are they though? Most employees think of corporations as poorly as they think of unions.

 

[QuietB]

Are they though? Most employees think of corporations as poorly as they think of unions.

Why do they vote for the IPA then?

My father in law was a coal miner. You have never heard someone speak so disparagingly of the unions. campaigner would be dead of black lung or something without them but apparently they are going to be fall of western civilisation.

He lives in a region that has been absolutely decimated by neo-liberal politics yet he would never consider voting for anyone but the consevatives. He is a boat person FFS.

It simply makes no sense to me.

I know both sides of politics are as bad and as corrupted as each other, but the conservatives offer the working class nothing. Zero. Yet they still vote for them every single time. It is bewildering.

 

[owen87]

Why do they vote for the IPA then?

My father in law was a coal miner. You have never heard someone speak so disparagingly of the unions. campaigner would be dead of black lung or something without them but apparently they are going to be fall of western civilisation.

He lives in a region that has been absolutely decimated by neo-liberal politics yet he would never consider voting for anyone but the consevatives. He is a boat person FFS.

It simply makes no sense to me.

I know both sides of politics are as bad and as corrupted as each other, but the conservatives offer the working class nothing. Zero. Yet they still vote for them every single time. It is bewildering.

Look at the CFMEU; people are either very for or very against them and their tactics. No one likes large multi-nationals exploiting tax loopholes, they also don't like being bullied to join the union on job sites, or being held to ransom by the union.

The LNP & ALP both offer little for blue collar workers; the main difference being that conservative politics suits 'the working class' a lot better these days given they're on exceptional wages, and Labor has had a swing away from working class people to the more 'elite left' type values.

The Labor of our parents / grandparents generation is vastly different to the ALP of today, much the same can be said of the Unions of today versus yesteryear.

The goalposts have shifted.

 

[QuietB]

Look at the CFMEU; people are either very for or very against them and their tactics. No one likes large multi-nationals exploiting tax loopholes, they also don't like being bullied to join the union on job sites, or being held to ransom by the union.

The LNP & ALP both offer little for blue collar workers; the main difference being that conservative politics suits 'the working class' a lot better these days given they're on exceptional wages, and Labor has had a swing away from working class people to the more 'elite left' type values.

The Labor of our parents / grandparents generation is vastly different to the ALP of today, much the same can be said of the Unions of today versus yesteryear.

The goalposts have shifted.

I understand that there has been a massive shift and that the current day Labor party seems to have aligned itself (or been aligned) with inner city lefties more than the working class.

But, that still does not explain why working class people flock to the LNP. What has the LNP ever actually done for them?

 

[Taylor]

But, that still does not explain why working class people flock to the LNP. What has the LNP ever actually done for them?

Our working class is earning enough to dislike their tax bill and doesn't want to see new arrivals competing with them for their job.

 

[Seeds]

Every way you look at the stats pretty much from the day Reagan fired every member of the Air Traffic controllers union the working class has seen received a diminishing return of the economic pie, worsening conditions, longer hours, higher ceo wages, slashing taxes on the rich, wage freezes, reduced safety regulations on site, ignoring of monopoly laws, moving operations overseas, lower pay fewer benefits and when the worker agrees to work for less they move the jobs overseas anyway. I just feel as though if in the 80s the working class had just said no, if the americans had just said, nah fu** you reagan we arent scabbing! things would be very different.

- China wouldnt be a super power.
- we probably wouldnt have a new Iphone every year, wed have to wait every 4 years.
- Cars would probably be more expensive.
- Houses would be cheaper.
- Uni would be cheaper but youd have to be smart to do it.
- Youd probably have less immigration because we wouldnt have all these middle class brown /chinese people flying around buying up apartments
- probably less mental health issues
- better movies
- better music
- more natural t***ies

I know most of you are right wing or centrist but I really feel like most of the problems you guys are obsessed with now wouldn't be so bad if the working class had just stood up and said no fu** you Reagan in 81.

Look at the reasons why reagan and thatcher came to power? This didnt happen in a vacuum.

High unemployment and High inflation at the same time. Mass power outages. Garbage not being picked up in the street. Farmers throwing crops away. Train strikes. Oil prices skyrocketing (admittedly this had nothing to do with unions but it didnt help), reports of significant union corruption, unbeleivable red tape.

The people were sick of it. Including many lower income workers.

 

[Chief]

It’s interesting to see that there have been unions wound up due to crime and corruption.

It is interesting despite becoming more sophisticated with lawyers, unions continue to be found guilty of breaking the law.

Yet nothing to see here apparently!


Unions are important, that’s why we should have stronger laws and better regulatory oversight. Perhaps then, they will become more relevant to this century and the people they are supposed to represent.

Unfortunately the LNP’s version of oversight is aimed at shutting them down instead of ensuring they operate properly.