Society/Culture Why has political discussion become an utter shambles?

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Transgender bathrooms is another example. Liberals would rather biological women be made to feel uncomfortable so that transgender people can use the bathroom they want. Upset the hive to help a bee.

Let's not hijack the thread on whichever issue you want to jump to in order to avoid the problems in your previous post. Suffice to say that your framing of this bathrooms issue also displays a misunderstanding of 'liberals' - something you claimed Haidt's test showed conservatives were meant to be better at.

 

[Fryman]

Let's not hijack the thread on whichever issue you want to jump to in order to avoid the problems in your previous post. Suffice to say that your framing of this bathrooms issue also displays a misunderstanding of 'liberals' - something you claimed Haidt's test showed conservatives were meant to be better at.

He's done the research not me. These were people who identified themselves as liberal. Apologies if that doesn't fit your definition - there will always be exceptions when making broad generalisations.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

He's done the research not me. These were people who identified themselves as liberal. Apologies if that doesn't fit your definition - there will always be exceptions when making broad generalisations.

You're saying he dealt with Transgender bathrooms? By the way, in my research the other day I found a few right-wingers incorrectly saying there was five moral foundations. Seemingly make the same error you made? Maybe he altered his book or maybe you had read those articles?

The two examples you have given heavily undermine the worth in Haidt's theory if they come from anything like his book. But if you are just repeating what you've heard from right-wing articles, it may explain why your examples are so out-of-touch.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Transgender bathrooms is another example. Liberals would rather biological women be made to feel uncomfortable so that transgender people can use the bathroom they want. Upset the hive to help a bee.

that's an interesting point.

 

[fleabitten]

Authority is things like the government, police and armed forces.

Is it immoral to disobey an unjust law? What about being ordered to do something immoral by someone with authority over you?

Sanctity takes its cues from Christianity.

So it's morally correct to stone people who work on the sabbath?

Think about the different reactions to the Mike Brown police shooting. One side sees an innocent civilian being shot - the other sees someone who was resisting arrest and wouldn't have been harmed if they just obeyed authority.

Opinions on Mike Brown come down to where you get your information. You obviously get it from someone who has no doubt that the police officer was just doing his job and Mike Brown was a thug who resisted arrest. All very clear cut and if you disagree then you're just a liberal who has no respect for authority. We'll probably never know exactly what happened, but I'm of the opinion that it was the officer who was the thug and that he abused his authority.

Here's a metaphor from the book to explain one of his points.
"A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative, being partially driven by the Care/Harm foundation, also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."

Sounds a lot like the refugee crisis doesn't it?

It's a rubbish metaphor written by someone who has obviously taken a side and whose opinions on what makes a liberal or conservative are ridiculously simplistic.

 

[yebiga]

My take is the simplest one. It is an "unintended consequence " of the Identity politics that us so prevalent today that has herded us into various "tribes".

Another poster suggested politics has always been problematic - but not like this. Neither side can even articulate coherent policies they would like to see.

And identity politics plays a central role in fomenting this impasse where emotion overwhelms reason.

Whether you limit the blame to identity politics or expand it to include post modern theories, Political correctness - I don't know but I think we are in the ball park.

This train wreck has occurred over decades thru incremental infringements on individual liberty.

We continue to give lip service to the sanctity of free speech but we have introduced a range of legal and cultural sanctions on speech.

It all starts innocently enough with sanctions against inciting violence or hate but it morphs into censoring words and the expression of opinion, jokes become risky regardless of your intent they may offend and cement uncomfortable stereo types.

Even on these threads we see tepid posts often judged mercilessly using partisan interpretations.

Perhaps, there is a bit of Toffler's "future shock" going on. So much change in a short time - we just can't adjust and absorb it all rationally and frustrated we lash out illogically and emotionally.

Neither side of the Trump divide can claim integrity or level headedness. The man is obviously completely out off the box but however insane his administration has been, his opponents match it step for step.

The enemy of Civilization has not changed in the slightest ever since someone first put up a fence and said this is mine. The primary Question is always the same. How will we implement and maintain those fences - is it by force, fairness, equity, theft, laws ...?

If you answer this question correctly and vigilantly - those other things - like identity - evaporate as the diversionary nonsense it has always been.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Ah, the classic 'political correctness is limiting free speech'. And this time from someone who defends Russia, where they literally control & censor the media.

The narrative of PC attacking free speech is part of the idea of telling people they are victims. Victims of 'elites' and 'leftists'. And when everyone focuses on WHO to blame, they don't focus on WHAT the issue is. You could call that focus on WHO 'identity politics'.

 

[yebiga]

Ah, the classic 'political correctness is limiting free speech'. And this time from someone who defends Russia, where they literally control & censor the media.

The narrative of PC attacking free speech is part of the idea of telling people they are victims. Victims of 'elites' and 'leftists'. And when everyone focuses on WHO to blame, they don't focus on WHAT the issue is. You could call that focus on WHO 'identity politics'.

I can't defend the kind restrictions on political speech which I m sure exist in Russia.
But I'm not talking here about political speech - in the traditional sense - of challenging the prevailing notional head. Or calling for their over throw.

The west has eroded its liberties in the traditional areas as well by restricting protests - disbanding protest with riot gear police even here in Melbourne.

What I am talking about is far more insidious. And more expansive than even a totalitarian regime could dream to accomplish.

We here in the west self censor almost anything and everything that is even remotely political.

A range of Opinions are taboo on history, gender, race, sexuality, smoking, drinking, eating, even school kids insulting each other, parents smacking children, body shapes, flirting, equal opportunity, 9/11, communism, socialist alternatives to capitalism, mining rights, indigenous land rights, Hitler/Nazis, Israel. USA bases on our land, our US foreign war and UN voting policy, alternative taxation models, Assanges illegal confinement, climate change, USA economic war on the entire world, the US dollar and Saudi oil, Australia's rape and pillage of PNG resources, the dumbing down education system, the epidemic of prescription drugs, how about the causes of depression.

This is off the top of my head.

To be honest I don't know what to make of it all - something akin to the movie "idocracy" appears very much on the horizon with our current trajectory.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Opinions are taboo on history, gender, race, sexuality, smoking, drinking, eating, even school kids insulting each other, parents smacking children, body shapes, flirting, equal opportunity, 9/11, communism, socialist alternatives to capitalism, mining rights, indigenous land rights, Hitler/Nazis, Israel. USA bases on our land, our US foreign war and UN voting policy, alternative taxation models, Assanges illegal confinement, climate change, USA economic war on the entire world, the US dollar and Saudi oil, Australia's rape and pillage of PNG resources, the dumbing down education system, the epidemic of prescription drugs, how about the causes of depression.

.

I have seen extensive comments on and discussion on all of those topics in Australia (including most of them on bigfooty), covering the whole gamut of opinion from right to left.

How are they taboo, who is self-censoring discussion on them, and how?

 

[yebiga]

Forgive me, I don't mean to insult BF's non footy threads - but it's a football site - it's not exactly known for its political discussion pages.

Yet where is? Any discussion of value is occurring at the fringes off broadway. It's why you stumbled on here.

 

[kirsti]

Transgender bathrooms is another example. Liberals would rather biological women be made to feel uncomfortable so that transgender people can use the bathroom they want. Upset the hive to help a bee.

Which toilet do you suggest transgender people use?

 

[Crankyhawk]

Unisex! Remove standing troughs and cubicle everyone.

 

[Gough]

Unisex! Remove standing troughs and cubicle everyone.

Perish the thought, having a piss standing up is one of the few benefits of external sexual organs.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Perish the thought, having a piss standing up is one of the few benefits of external sexual organs.

You can still stand in the cubicle

 

[11sjw]

You can still stand in the cubicle

But you can't sword fight.

 

[11sjw]

Which toilet do you suggest transgender people use?

If they have a penis the men's toilet. A vagina, the women's. Their "feels" does not their gender make.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Which toilet do you suggest transgender people use?

The truth is those people are often more worried about how "uncomfortable" they are with transgender people, not how uncomfortable "biological women" may feel. It's the whole reason they constantly try to associate using the bathroom with something sexual. And why they've long wanted to associate criminal acts with homosexuality.

There is, of course, absolutely nothing stopping a transgender person using a bathroom right now. They apparently still need to pee and poo, and so they do.

If they have a penis the men's toilet. A vagina, the women's. Their "feels" does not their gender make.

Just in case you're unaware, a transgender person may well have had a penis, and now a vagina, or vice versa. Some people are also born with both.

 

[11sjw]

Some people are also born with both.

Having had a close family member work in a plastic surgery clinic I'm probably more aware of that than most people are. Given the rarity of the occurrence I don't think anyone would have a problem if these people choose a gender to live their life as, especially if it is different to how they were raised.

 

[kirsti]

If they have a penis the men's toilet. A vagina, the women's. Their "feels" does not their gender make.

How would you suggest this would be policed genital inspections for everyone?

 

[kirsti]

The truth is those people are often more worried about how "uncomfortable" they are with transgender people, not how uncomfortable "biological women" may feel. It's the whole reason they constantly try to associate using the bathroom with something sexual. And why they've long wanted to associate criminal acts with homosexuality.

There is, of course, absolutely nothing stopping a transgender person using a bathroom right now. They apparently still need to pee and poo, and so they do.

Just in case you're unaware, a transgender person may well have had a penis, and now a vagina, or vice versa. Some people are also born with both.

In the ACT and South Australia gender comfirmation surgery is not a pre requisite to having a birth certificate amended. There are women with a penis who hold female birth certificates and there are men with vaginas that have male birth certificates.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

How would you suggest this would be policed genital inspections for everyone?

Well I've lately been starting to think about a change in career...

 

[kirsti]

The truth is those people are often more worried about how "uncomfortable" they are with transgender people, not how uncomfortable "biological women" may feel. It's the whole reason they constantly try to associate using the bathroom with something sexual. And why they've long wanted to associate criminal acts with homosexuality.

There is, of course, absolutely nothing stopping a transgender person using a bathroom right now. They apparently still need to pee and poo, and so they do.

Just in case you're unaware, a transgender person may well have had a penis, and now a vagina, or vice versa. Some people are also born with both.

I was born with a penis and I married a woman and fathered three children now I have a vagina and I am not allowed to marry my female fiancée but I can marry a male.

 

[kirsti]

Well I've lately been starting to think about a change in career...

Really would you enjoy looking at genitals all day every day?

 

[Benny78]

Which toilet do you suggest transgender people use?

The toilets assigned to their biological sex.

 

[nufan]

That is a hilarious joke. Bernie not a big fan of Wall Street. No one ever prosecuted for their crimes in the GFC

Bernie Madoff?