Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

[Moe B]

I already told you, if you wish to know more about Sunni practices (one of the major schools in sunni islam) and how they interpret the verses, read Reliance of the travellers, its nothing like what you posted in the article. This is why there is a discussion about "interpretation" in the first place.

Ok can you give me some examples on how they differ?

 

[Total Power]

Well they'd possibly be Jewish....

Not believing Muhammad was the last prophet is probably more akin to how Anglicans and Catholics differ, though under Islam it seems that these differences remain far more violently fought than any of the Christian faiths.

True but they have their own prophet as well which doesn't sit well with Sunnis.

 

[Total Power]

Ok can you give me some examples on how they differ?

For example: in reliance of travelers its written"

The following are not subject to retaliation:
(2) “a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim”
(3) a dhimmi for killing an apostate
(4) a parent for killing their child or grandchild

in the page: followed by: "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed"

All from reliance of the traveller, one of the 4 major sunni schools.

you are most welcome to google all these quotes.

 

[TimmeT]

He, like the others, is not interested in discussion. He is only interested in shitting on your faith because terrorism. He will try to convince you that he isn't against Muslims but every single word that he writes is anti-Muslim, not just anti-Islam but anti-Muslim. He will deny it by occasionally throwing in the "I'm only talking about terrorist Muslims". Don't waste your time.

What's wrong with shitting on Islam and or Muslims? Muslims follow Islam so it would be part and parcel. No different to just say people shitting on Israel and attacking Jews for example.

 

[Moe B]

Well they'd possibly be Jewish....

Not believing Muhammad was the last prophet is probably more akin to how Anglicans and Catholics differ, though under Islam it seems that these differences remain far more violently fought than any of the Christian faiths.

It seems? Who and where? Is this your perspective or is it factual? If the perception that the sects are fighting, I'd like to know where this is happening? If your referring to sunnis and shia, I know that in the major city of tehran in iran, I know for a fact that most of them live in peace side by side

 

[Crankyhawk]

And I listed a few doctrines, including jihad, martyrdom, apostasy and the response to blasphemy.

Do you really need me to explain to you how liberal, Western, secular values work or are you simply trying to avoid the question?

Let's start with the secular part of it. In secular society, "god's law" has no bearing. Is Islam compatible with that?

He did give me an earlier answer that where the law of the land and Islam conflict the law of the land takes precedence for him.

 

[JackOutback]

What's wrong with shitting on Islam and or Muslims? Muslims follow Islam so it would be part and parcel. No different to just say people shitting on Israel and attacking Jews for example.

Because both examples make you a bigot? Seems pretty obvious.

You can criticise an institution without criticising everyone involved because people are individuals with differing behaviours and standards.

 

[TimmeT]

Because both examples make you a bigot? Seems pretty obvious.

You can criticise an institution without criticising everyone involved because people are individuals with differing behaviours and standards.

Funny seems that those who are saying you cannot criticise all those who follow a religion are the same ones who have no issue criticising everyone involved when it doesn't conform with their political position. Typical double standards and rank hypocrisy from the do gooders yet again.

 

[JackOutback]

Funny seems that those who are saying you cannot criticise all those who follow a religion are the same ones who have no issue criticising everyone involved when it doesn't conform with their political position. Typical double standards and rank hypocrisy from the do gooders yet again.

Nonsense. I am a strident critic of the Catholic Church, but I'm not going to assume every Catholic I meet is a paedo. Likewise, not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every Jew is a-hole like Benjamin Netanyahu. It is actually very simple to criticise an institution and its practices without tarring an entire population with an inaccurate and derogatory brush. It only requires the smallest amount of common sense.

 

[owen87]

It seems? Who and where? Is this your perspective or is it factual? If the perception that the sects are fighting, I'd like to know where this is happening? If your referring to sunnis and shia, I know that in the major city of tehran in iran, I know for a fact that most of them live in peace side by side

Oh well I guess since they live side by side in Tehran there's no conflict at all anywhere then.

 

[skilts]

Try thinking about what other people think? Your post is gibberish.

Yours only aspire to being gibberish.

 

[Moe B]

For example: in reliance of travelers its written"

The following are not subject to retaliation:
(2) “a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim”
(3) a dhimmi for killing an apostate
(4) a parent for killing their child or grandchild

in the page: followed by: "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed"

All from reliance of the traveller, one of the 4 major sunni schools.

you are most welcome to google all these quotes.

Ok thanks for that, now honestly I haven't read this book nor do i know for sure if its completely authentic, But I will do my due diligence and find out, I'm not afraid to be wrong or to be educated on such matters but from what I know, these are not in the quran or hadiths, like I said I'll ask a higher authority and will get back to you... But in all honesty, I can't imagine that these would be islamic law, unless it is contextual, and we know for sure that these laws aren't relevant for us here, but let's see...

 

[Moe B]

Oh well I guess since they live side by side in Tehran there's no conflict at all anywhere then.

You didn't say conflict, you said violently fought, and I asked where? Slick manoeuvre

 

[Total Power]

Ok thanks for that, now honestly I haven't read this book nor do i know for sure if its completely authentic, But I will do my due diligence and find out, I'm not afraid to be wrong or to be educated on such matters but from what I know, these are not in the quran or hadiths, like I said I'll ask a higher authority and will get back to you... But in all honesty, I can't imagine that these would be islamic law, unless it is contextual, and we know for sure that these laws aren't relevant for us here, but let's see...

It is pretty consistent with Bukhari and Muslim, if you read these 2 hadiths you will know. Anyway, the point is not whether their interpretation is right or yours, the point being mainstream islamic schools (and i dont mean wahabbi/salafi) interpret it this way and several hardcore interpretations exist...while you may not agree with it, it doesn't change the truth. Your hadiths support this view, so i can see where it comes from. There's plenty wrong with the Hadith's or the Quran, but i am not getting into it right now. Goodnight.

 

[james Dean]

The 2 dudes that are all about the scientific method convince the followers of their cult that they are an expert on something that they're not an expert in, at all. Not even a little bit. But their cult members lap it up. All hail Richard Dawkins. All hail Sam Harris.
Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris giving an expert opinion on Islam is like Tony Abbott giving an expert opinion climate change.

How about instead of arguing against their points on the basis that they aren't in your view 'experts', you actually argue with the points which they make in their conversations? Does someone need to have formal qualifications in Theology to be able to speak about religion?

 

[Moe B]

It is pretty consistent with Bukhari and Muslim, if you read these 2 hadiths you will know. Anyway, the point is not whether their interpretation is right or yours, the point being mainstream islamic schools (and i dont mean wahabbi/salafi) interpret it this way and several hardcore interpretations exist...while you may not agree with it, it doesn't change the truth. Your hadiths support this view, so i can see where it comes from.

Yes you're right, but i need more clarification on this, not just going to make up something to sound intelligent...

 

[Moe B]

How about instead of arguing against their points on the basis that they aren't in your view 'experts', you actually argue with the points which they make in their conversations? Does someone need to have formal qualifications in Theology to be able to speak about religion?

You don't need to have qualifications to speak about something like this, but atleast be well informed... I've seen dawkins blatantly lie about a verse in the quran, either out of ignorance or he is in fact lying... Who knows what else he lies about!

 

[owen87]

You didn't say conflict, you said violently fought, and I asked where? Slick manoeuvre

No you're right, the Middle East is currently very stable with no violence at all. Definitely none that has religious undercurrents.

 

[Moe B]

No you're right, the Middle East is currently very stable with no violence at all. Definitely none that has religious undercurrents.

Lol mate I'd be absolutely bewildered if you get a like for that one... Totally avoiding the question but all good

 

[owen87]

Lol mate I'd be absolutely bewildered if you get a like for that one... Totally avoiding the question but all good

You cherry picked an example as though Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria (among others) haven't had fairly major issues over the last few decades, or that ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah don't claim religious motivation. That both systems can live happily alongside each other is true, and I believe in Russia they've said that Shia & Sunni Muslim's have coexisted just fine for a long time.

I've never said that should reflect upon you or your beliefs, nor was my comment even directed at you.

Criticism of Islam is not criticism of you as an individual, although a few posters in this thread have made it so unfortunately, and you've done a fairly good job of continuing to respond to people who have no interest in engaging in discussion.

 

[james Dean]

You don't need to have qualifications to speak about something like this, but atleast be well informed... I've seen dawkins blatantly lie about a verse in the quran, either out of ignorance or he is in fact lying... Who knows what else he lies about!

What specifically are you referring to?

Even still, I'll just assume you're right and that he did make an incorrect statement once, does that then destroy all his credibility? Dawkins is certainly not an expert on Islam (he probably knows more than the average person though) Harris however is clearly well informed on the topic.

 

[Moe B]

You cherry picked an example as though Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria (among others) haven't had fairly major issues over the last few decades, or that ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah don't claim religious motivation. That both systems can live happily alongside each other is true, and I believe in Russia they've said that Shia & Sunni Muslim's have coexisted just fine for a long time.

I've never said that should reflect upon you or your beliefs, nor was my comment even directed at you.

Criticism of Islam is not criticism of you as an individual, although a few posters in this thread have made it so unfortunately, and you've done a fairly good job of continuing to respond to people who have no interest in engaging in discussion.

Well you made a broad statement that i thought was incorrect, you didn't give an example so I thought I'd give one that was a common misconception... I thought maybe you were referring to something like that... All good anyway

 

[Moe B]

What specifically are you referring to?

Even still, I'll just assume you're right and that he did make an incorrect statement once, does that then destroy all his credibility? Dawkins is certainly not an expert on Islam (he probably knows more than the average person though) Harris however is clearly well informed on the topic.

He once referred to a verse that clearly says, there's a water barrier where salt and sweet water don't mix, but not in a cup of water like he suggests, the quran is referring to a halocline, this has been proven, doesn't mean everything he says is bull but now there's a doubt about what else he's wrong about... He looked really stupid, Sam Harris on the other hand deserves a lot more credibility, At least he makes cases for us to think about, Dawkins for me is not on that level, therefore maybe he should stick to proving the multiverse and stay from things he knows very litte about, would you agree?

 

[owen87]

Well you made a broad statement that i thought was incorrect, you didn't give an example so I thought I'd give one that was a common misconception... I thought maybe you were referring to something like that... All good anyway

I think we largely see them coexisting well in secular countries, where the faith someone keeps is a personal / community thing, but when you have a theocratic government it starts to get tough to 'allow' differing views.

You might get away with Judaism or Christianity where it's a different creed; but a different interpretation of the ruling creed suddenly jeopardises the party in power.

It's unfortunate, because at their core all the major religions are fairly similar.

 

[Moe B]

I think we largely see them coexisting well in secular countries, where the faith someone keeps is a personal / community thing, but when you have a theocratic government it starts to get tough to 'allow' differing views.

You might get away with Judaism or Christianity where it's a different creed; but a different interpretation of the ruling creed suddenly jeopardises the party in power.

It's unfortunate, because at their core all the major religions are fairly similar.

Yeah and that's why I used Iran, they are definitely not secular but free to practice what they like... Same goes for indonesia and turkey, all major islamic countries that are ruled by islam... Yet many denominations are formed and are free to practice in which ever way they choose!!