Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

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More than 1,000 Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association (AMYA) members held a special prayer then put on hi-vis jackets to go out and collect hundreds of bin bags of rubbish from last night’s celebrations.​
British Ahmadiyya Imam Qamar Zafar said: ‘From Luton to London, Glasgow to Guilford, Cardiff to Croydon, across the entire country 1,000 members of AMYA participated in the New Year’s Day clean up.​
‘Islam urges every Muslim to partake in charitable giving, community service, and promote cleanliness.​
‘AMYA has and continues to instill young people with a sense of civic responsibility, and a desire to promote harmony within our local communities.’
He added: ‘The New Year’s Day Clean-up campaign ensures Muslim youth can be active members of society and serve their communities and the environment.’​
In 2018 AMYA, the UK’s largest and oldest Muslim youth group, held more than 300 community clean ups and planted 20,000 trees across the country.
AMYA Yorkshire youth coordinator Nadeem Ahmed said: ‘We’ve been doing the New Year’s clean-up for many years now, and each year we see more and more members coming to help.​


https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/01/youn...ations-8298756/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Very good. But when they refer to 'youth' or 'young people' they mean young males.
 

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More than 1,000 Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association (AMYA) members held a special prayer then put on hi-vis jackets to go out and collect hundreds of bin bags of rubbish from last night’s celebrations.​
British Ahmadiyya Imam Qamar Zafar said: ‘From Luton to London, Glasgow to Guilford, Cardiff to Croydon, across the entire country 1,000 members of AMYA participated in the New Year’s Day clean up.​
‘Islam urges every Muslim to partake in charitable giving, community service, and promote cleanliness.​
‘AMYA has and continues to instill young people with a sense of civic responsibility, and a desire to promote harmony within our local communities.’
He added: ‘The New Year’s Day Clean-up campaign ensures Muslim youth can be active members of society and serve their communities and the environment.’​
In 2018 AMYA, the UK’s largest and oldest Muslim youth group, held more than 300 community clean ups and planted 20,000 trees across the country.
AMYA Yorkshire youth coordinator Nadeem Ahmed said: ‘We’ve been doing the New Year’s clean-up for many years now, and each year we see more and more members coming to help.​


https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/01/youn...ations-8298756/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
The vast Muslim world regards the Ahmadiyya as apostates and they get murdered in huge numbers in Pakistan.
 

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Which is kind of my point.

Why we insist on lumping hardline Wahabbi Islamist/ Salaffist nutters in with moderates (who clearly believe different shit) I'll never know.

You can claim WBC are 'christians' as are Catholics. But their actual beliefs are so far apart that they'd likely come to blows over dinner.
 

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Which is kind of my point.

Why we insist on lumping hardline Wahabbi Islamist/ Salaffist nutters in with moderates (who clearly believe different shit) I'll never know.

You can claim WBC are 'christians' as are Catholics. But their actual beliefs are so far apart that they'd likely come to blows over dinner.
Forget the Wahabbism straw man, the persecution and loathing of Ahmadiyya is a majority view amongst “moderate” Muslims.
 

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Forget the Wahabbism straw man, the persecution and loathing of Ahmadiyya is a majority view amongst “moderate” Muslims.
On that we agree, and it's repugnant and reprehensible.

Secondly, Ahmadiyya are moderate Muslims (although other Muslims disagree, in much the same way as Catholics dont consider other Christians as Christian).
 

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On that we agree, and it's repugnant and reprehensible.

Secondly, Ahmadiyya are moderate Muslims (although other Muslims disagree, in much the same way as Catholics dont consider other Christians as Christian).
No, Ahmadiyya are liberal Muslims who deviate from the tradition of Islam, since they recognise another man as a prophet. Moderate Muslims are non-Salafist mainstream Muslim, who still believe many things we in the West find repugnant but don’t go to the lengths a Salafi does. There are over a billion of these “moderate” Muslims.

It’s a bit like saying Christians are Jews - well, yes, they sort of once were. But Jews have always rejected Christianity, and ones that didn’t we now consider “Christian”.
 

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No, Ahmadiyya are liberal Muslims who deviate from the tradition of Islam. Moderate Muslims are non-Salafist mainstream Muslim.
Thats your distinction, not mine. There are plently of moderate Muslims that that are more liberal than Ahymadiyya Muslims (and there are plenty of moderate Muslims that would reject your argument on different grounds; namely that they wouldnt consider Ahmadiyya Muslims as Muslims at all).

Daesh would put both groups to the sword as apostates if they didnt adopt Salffist hardline practices and beliefs, so they would disagree with you as well.
 

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Thats your distinction, not mine. There are plently of moderate Muslims that that are more liberal than Ahymadiyya Muslims (and there are plenty of moderate Muslims that would reject your argument on different grounds; namely that they wouldnt consider Ahmadiyya Muslims as Muslims at all).

Daesh would put both groups to the sword as apostates if they didnt adopt Salffist hardline practices and beliefs, so they would disagree with you as well.
Quit with the Daesh straw man. Pakistan, a democracy with a population of around 200 million Muslims, refuses to let Ahmadis get passports unless they renounce their religion. Is Pakistan extremist?
 

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Quit with the Daesh straw man. Pakistan, a democracy with a population of around 200 million Muslims, refuses to let Ahmadis get passports unless they renounce their religion. Is Pakistan extremist?
I certainly dont consider Pakistan moderate. In fact it's a hotbed of Islamic extremism.

Ive met some lovely Pakistani people of course, and most of them are welcoming and inviting, but the country as whole suffers from a very low HDI, some primitive as **** living conditions, and a high level of extremism.

There is a reason why we dont do Cricket tours over there any more. And as mentioned above, most of the members of the Sex grooming gangs in the UK were of Pakistani (Muslim) background.

Again, not to say Pakistani Muslims are all shit or sex monsters or terrorists or anything like that. That's far from what I'm saying. But they're a very devout Islamic culture, with a low HDI to boot (a pretty shit combination when it comes to Islamic extremism, and concepts of modernity like religious freedom, human rights, equal opportunity, feminism and so forth).
 
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I mean, take a look at this map and see if you cant find Pakistan on it. Along with Syria, Iraq, Nigeria and Afghanistan it's one of the worst nations for Islamic extremism out there:
1546446896292.png
 

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You really have to hand it to the Terrorists.
In a very short space of time, they've managed to ensure most of the Western world (thinks they) know more about Islam than they do about just about any other religion.

And you know what they say about publicity, right?
I mean let's face it, 9/11 and subsequent events have done more for the spread of Islamic awareness (and study) than any Imam ever has.
 
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I certainly dont consider Pakistan moderate. In fact it's a hotbed of Islamic extremism.

Ive met some lovely Pakistani people of course, and most of them are welcoming and inviting, but the country as whole suffers from a very low HDI, some primitive as **** living conditions, and a high level of extremism.

There is a reason why we dont do Cricket tours over there any more. And as mentioned above, most of the members of the Sex grooming gangs in the UK were of Pakistani (Muslim) background.

Again, not to say Pakistani Muslims are all shit or sex monsters or terrorists or anything like that. That's far from what I'm saying. But they're a very devout Islamic culture, with a low HDI to boot (a pretty shit combination when it comes to Islamic extremism, and concepts of modernity like religious freedom, human rights, equal opportunity, feminism and so forth).
What’s a moderate Islamic country look like? How many moderate Muslims are there versus immoderate?
 

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What’s a moderate Islamic country look like? How many moderate Muslims are there versus immoderate?
I would have said places like Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia, but they've all been edging towards more conservative and hardline Islamic rhetoric lately.

Which of course mirrors the rest of the world, with Far right wing populism also on the rise (Brexit, Trump, LePenn, Duerte etc).
 

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I would have said places like Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia, but they've all been edging towards more conservative and hardline Islamic rhetoric lately.

Which of course mirrors the rest of the world, with Far right wing populism also on the rise (Brexit, Trump, LePenn, Duerte etc).
Are you saying that Malaysia, which imprisons people for sodomy, is the same as Brexit?

Interesting false equivalence.
 

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Are you saying that Malaysia, which imprisons people for sodomy, is the same as Brexit?

Interesting false equivalence.
Only an idiot would assume as much. So if you assumed as much...

My point was that the recent lurch to conservatism hasn't been isolated to Islamic countries. We've seen a lurch to the conservative right all around the world, with populist and nationalist leaders (or wanna-be leaders) popping up everywhere, from Brazil, to the USA, to the Philippines to France and elsewhere.

It's deeply troubling.
 

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Only an idiot would assume as much. So if you assumed as much...

My point was that the recent lurch to conservatism hasn't been isolated to Islamic countries. We've seen a lurch to the conservative right all around the world, with populist and nationalist leaders (or wanna-be leaders) popping up everywhere, from Brazil, to the USA, to the Philippines to France and elsewhere.

It's deeply troubling.
Why do you think this has happened?
 

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Why do you think this has happened?
The internet is a big player. It provides both a filter (allowing people to post outrageously racist shit without fear of getting called out on it in a meaningful way) and also a means of radicalization (political and religious). Pretty much every terrorist attack to date in recent times (Islamic and Right wing terrorism, plus Hate crimes etc) has featured radicalisation that has taken place largely on the internet. The 'Alt-right' got its traction online in various forums and so forth. Daesh use the internet as its main recruiting tool and radicalisation method.

The internet also paints this ridiculous image of the planet and our society, that is nothing like what it actually is. Social media, instagram, facebook. Viral shit. It's so far disconnected from the real world it's scary. And it's contributing to a growing feeling of disconnection.

Look at the recent Right wing rally. The organisers were more intrested in 'getting lots of likes and shares' from the event on social media. And those right wing sites provide a place for the 'hard core' Neo Nazis to visit, but also a place for impressionable young men to visit, and get radicalised by that populist nationalistic bullshit.

Our level of connectedness is making us more disconnected in a weird kind of way. And people are connecting, radicalising and so forth in ways that would have been impossible 20 years ago.

There is also a growing feeling of alienation among blue collar/ working class people. Howards 'Battlers', Trumps 'rust belt' demographic in the USA, the white British working class peeps who were responsible for Brexit. In 'the West' traditionally these guys and gals are the 'moderates' but they're increasingly getting radicalized and are the prime targets for Right Wing populist leaders (Like Trump and co).

Right wing populism has always been a thing of course. But there is fertile ground in the middle now due to the growing feeling of alienation and dissatisfaction from that middle class demographic. Some of those concerns are valid, and those guys and gals feel like they don't have a voice. If the Left are guilty of anything, it's not listening enough to those concerns, and instead shouting them down or marginalizing them.

It's deeply concerning. Everywhere in the world looks to be pushing towards more nationalist and right wing conservative populist leaders. It's become this deeply toxic 'left vs right' parochial bullshit everywhere you go.

Last few times we've gone down this path it led to global war. War invariably follows every time this nationalistic shit kicks off. I'm all but convinced we're not far away from another big one.
 
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The internet is a big player. It provides both a filter (allowing people to post outrageously racist shit without fear of getting called out on it in a meaningful way) and also a means of radicalization (political and religious). Pretty much every terrorist attack to date in recent times (Islamic and Right wing terrorism, plus Hate crimes etc) has featured radicalisation that has taken place largely on the internet. The 'Alt-right' got its traction online in various forums and so forth. Daesh use the internet as its main recruiting tool and radicalisation method.

The internet also paints this ridiculous image of the planet and our society, that is nothing like what it actually is. Social media, instagram, facebook. Viral shit. It's so far disconnected from the real world it's scary. And it's contributing to a growing feeling of disconnection.

Our level of connectedness is making us more disconnected in a weird kind of way. And people are connecting, radicalising and so forth in ways that would have been impossible 20 years ago.

There is also a growing feeling of alienation among blue collar/ working class people. Howards 'Battlers', Trumps 'rust belt' demographic in the USA, the white British working class peeps who were responsible for Brexit. In 'the West' traditionally these guys and gals are the 'moderates' but they're increasingly getting radicalized and are the prime targets for Right Wing populist leaders (Like Trump and co).

Right wing populism has always been a thing of course. But there is fertile ground in the middle now due to the growing feeling of alienation and dissatisfaction from that middle class demographic. Some of those concerns are valid, and those guys and gals feel like they don't have a voice. If the Left are guilty of anything, it's not listening enough to those concerns, and instead shouting them down or marginalizing them.

It's deeply concerning. Everywhere in the world looks to be pushing towards more nationalist and right wing conservative populist leaders. It's become this deeply toxic 'left vs right' parochial bullshit everywhere you go.

Last few times we've gone down this path it led to global war.
Reactionary trends in Islam started well before the internet, probably 100 years of it. Russia’s turn to reaction is around 20 years old, contemporaneous with the internet but not a causal relationship.

I think it’s a failure of liberalism to realise;

a. The desire for freedom and democracy is a unique feature of European cultures
b. Pretending otherwise in the hope of converting illiberal cultures to liberal ones at the cost of your own people causes them to lose faith in the promise of liberalism.
 

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Reactionary trends in Islam started well before the internet, probably 100 years of it. Russia’s turn to reaction is around 20 years old, contemporaneous with the internet but not a causal relationship.

I think it’s a failure of liberalism to realise;

a. The desire for freedom and democracy is a unique feature of European cultures
b. Pretending otherwise in the hope of converting illiberal cultures to liberal ones at the cost of your own people causes them to lose faith in the promise of liberalism.
In no society in the world has the imposition of liberalism via a foreign power worked, barring Japan and West Germany last century post WW2. Liberalism has traditionally come about from within (via popular revolution).

As a liberal, I am in no way a supporter of imposing liberty on other nations. Unless you have a popular mandate, it's doomed to fail.

And I disagree with your opening premise also. In the last century Europe has seen more than its fair share of Fascists, Nazis, Francoists etc and similar highly illiberal Nation States and Far Right wing non democratic fascist leaders. Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany and others have all slid into total fascism at one point or another. Everyone from Napoleon to Hitler, Franco to Mussolini, Salizar to Petain. The list goes on an on. Im always wary that any given European State could fall victim to another Far Right wing populist leader (Golden Dawn, Geert Wilders, UKIP, National Rally, Alternative for Germany etc).

Europe is no shining light for democracy and liberty. Heck the last two World Wars were kicked off in Europe, largely due to ultra nationalism and fascism/ nazism. Take a step back and look at Europe a bit closer.

Oddly it's the British Common Law countries and her colonies that have remained the most liberal and true to liberal values of democracy and human rights (the UK, USA, NZ, Australia etc). I've never been able to figure out if thats due to some pecularity in the Common Law or otherwise.
 
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Wrong. It invented the practice. If Europe isn’t the shining light, what is? Africa? Asia? It’s European cultures for the best examples of democracy or nothing.
Replace 'European' with 'British Common Law based' and you might have something. The UK and her colonies (USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc) are, and have always been stable liberal democracies valuing human rights and liberty since they made the transition centuries ago.

The rest of Europe though? Are you kidding? Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, Italy and others have all overthrown Democratic and Liberal governments in the past century alone, and replaced them with Far Right Wing ultranationalist unitary party regimes led by a Populist leader.

It's literally the place that spawned Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Franco, Salizar, Petain and others.

How on earth can you say Europeans are the shining light of liberalism and democracy? Did you somehow miss the last 2 World Wars or something? That Hitler fellow? Spain? Portugal? Italy?

I wholly refute any premise that Europe is the shining light of liberalism. Continental Europe flip flops between liberalism, far right wing ultranationalist unitary party bullshit and Communism all the bloody time. I was hopeful the EU might finally put an end to all that bullshit but those Europeans cant help themselves. The Nazis now have a seat in the German Parliament, Macron has all but handed France to the Fascists, and the whole place is going to shit (again). Ultra nationalism is on the rise, and with it comes right wing populism and the usual results.

Seriously. The UK, Ireland, and former British colonies (Canada, the USA, NZ and OZ, plus South Africa and so forth) have never slipped into out and out Fascism or similar, which I put down to a unique aspect of the Common Law and a strong independent Judiciary that supervise the Executive arm of government. This independent Judiciary, with the ability to make laws outside of political populism, and ensure the Executive abide by the law, is something you dont find in Continental European nations and the Civil Law (possible exceptions include France to a certain degree, but they're up to their 5th go at a Republic now, plus 2 Dictatorships under Petain and Napoleon, so they arent exactly a stable liberal Nation either, despite largely inventing the whole 'liberty, fraternity, equality' thing).

Scandinavian nations are probably the other exception. Those guys just kind of get everything mostly right all the time.
 
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