Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

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FalcoX

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This doesn’t answer the question. Let’s say the courts find the witnesses credible. What happens to the victim?
Actually it does since its your 'bros' then their potential bias/scheming would have to be considered if the aim is to be 'just'. Other than that they will have to look at the facts of the case, the circumstances, DNA/medical evidence if available , alibis, anything else that can indicate as to what took place like any normal court proceeding. The witness testimonies will be one part of a holistic investigation upon which a judgment can be made.

If at the end of the day it is found there was no rape and sex was consensual and witnessed by four credible witnesses then it willl be up to the judges to decide if meting out punishment (to both parties) would be the just outcome or possibly further victimisation of an innocent person.
 
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Punishing a rape victim when there is a lack of evidence to prove the offence is not supported by the Quran.
She wasnt (legally) raped.

Scenario: A mans friend rapes his friends wife. She falls pregnant as a consequence to the rape.

She complains to the police and makes a statement telling them that the man came into her room, they had sex, and she was not consenting. He forced himself on her.

He admits to the sex occurring, but denies it was unconsentual. He claims it was consentual.

At the trial it becomes her word against his. There is no other supporting evidence either way. Both parties admit the sex happened, but the element of lack consent cannot be proven (it's his word against hers).

Accordingly he is aquitted of rape.

She now gets flogged 100 times for Adultery.

Remember, the court has found sex happened. She's pregnant with his child. Both parties (her and the rapist) admit the sex happened. If he hasnt raped her, she's admitted to adultery.

This is why thousands of rapes dont get reported each year in Pakistan alone. If you lose the case, not only does your rapist walk, but you also get 100 lashes,
 
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Nowhere is the idea of what it is to be masculine written down as law or scripture
There are socially agreed on gender roles. They're as much an ideology as anything else, despite not being written down. We teach them to our kids, and they're entrenched in society.

How else do you explain sayings like 'Be a man', 'Man up' 'Are you a man or a mouse?' and so forth? Are these sayings urging people to 'physcially grow a biologial penis?'

And how can right wingers call some men 'cucks' and so forth if there are no socially agreed on gender roles?
 

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There are socially agreed on gender roles. They're as much an ideology as anything else, despite not being written down. We teach them to our kids, and they're entrenched in society.

How else do you explain sayings like 'Be a man', 'Man up' 'Are you a man or a mouse?' and so forth? Are these sayings urging people to 'physcially grow a biologial penis?'

And how can right wingers call some men 'cucks' and so forth if there are no socially agreed on gender roles?
Have you ever wondered whether the above is nonsense?

Are there any societies which don’t have gender roles? Where are they?
 
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To those who believe in said scriptures, those laws are eternal.

And I wouldn't go around calling other people's beliefs dumb considering some of your posts in this thread.
and they become national laws, because there are lots of believers there. Dumb is a nice way of putting it.

Perhaps Barbaric is a better term describing the enforcing of 2000 year old doctrines.
 

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It sure as shit does. I despise all religions. But I also despise bigots. A law-abiding Muslim going about their business in this country no more offends me than a Christian.
What is “law abiding”? You think normative masculinity is bad, but the overwhelming number of expressions of normative masculinity are law abiding.
 

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Im not saying it's not a problem mate.
Number of extremists potentially a threat has been put at 25k.

Did you read the article you linked above (from the Telegraph no less). It pretty clearly states that the problem you're describing comes from lack of integration (both from the broader British community, and the Pakistani community).
How do you expect the broader British community to integrate? Very odd thing to say.
 

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FalcoX

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She wasnt (legally) raped.

Scenario: A mans friend rapes his friends wife. She falls pregnant as a consequence to the rape.

She complains to the police and makes a statement telling them that the man came into her room, they had sex, and she was not consenting. He forced himself on her.

He admits to the sex occurring, but denies it was unconsentual. He claims it was consentual.

At the trial it becomes her word against his. There is no other supporting evidence either way. Both parties admit the sex happened, but the element of lack consent cannot be proven (it's his word against hers).

Accordingly he is aquitted of rape.

She now gets flogged 100 times for Adultery.

Remember, the court has found sex happened. She's pregnant with his child. Both parties (her and the rapist) admit the sex happened. If he hasnt raped her, she's admitted to adultery.

This is why thousands of rapes dont get reported each year in Pakistan alone. If you lose the case, not only does your rapist walk, but you also get 100 lashes,
Except she has nowhere in your scenario admitted to consensual sex but is saying she was forced against her will. There may not be enough evidence to prove it occurred however considering the inherent difficulties in proving rape I do not believe it can be argued that it is fair or just that she be punished. Not only could a potentially innocent person be victimised twice you would also be preventing other victims from coming forward out of fear of receiving the same fate which would be the opposite of a fair and just society which the Quran promotes, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia being some examples.
 
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Except she has nowhere in your scenario admitted to consensual sex but is saying she was forced against her will.
She's literally admitted the sex occurred. As has he. Shes pregnant with his child remember.

However, he denies rape (he claims she consented). The court (with no other witnesses or evidence to prove he raped her) finds him not guilty.

Now she gets lashed. If the sex wasnt rape, it was still sex outside of marriage.

Not only could a potentially innocent person be victimised twice you would also be preventing other victims from coming forward out of fear of receiving the same fate which would be the opposite of a fair and just society which the Quran promotes, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia being some examples.
Yeah, nah:

First, it is important to note that the application of the Zina Ordinance in Pakistan has placed a new twist and a renewed urgency on the question of its validity. The twist is this: when a zina-bil-jabr (rape) case fails for lack of four witnesses, the Pakistani legal system has more than once concluded that the intercourse was therefore consensual, and consequently has charged rape victims with zina (consentual sex that isnt rape). A few disturbing cases will illustrate the concern. In 1982, fifteenyear-old Jehan Mina became pregnant as a result of a reported rape. Lacking the testimony of four eyewitnesses that the intercourse was in fact rape, Jehan was convicted of zina on the evidence of her illegitimate pregnancy. Her child was born in prison.


https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1467&context=mjil

See the problem this creates? If you're going to police and admitting you had sex with someone (which is an element of rape), but you did not consent the court could find the sex happened (not an issue seeing as you and he admit it did) but lack enough evidence to find he raped you.

You then get punished.

Why would you report such a thing happening if an acquittal could lead you you being flogged?
 

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She's literally admitted the sex occurred. As has he. Shes pregnant with his child remember.

However, he denies rape (he claims she consented). The court (with no other witnesses or evidence to prove he raped her) finds him not guilty.

Now she gets lashed. If the sex wasnt rape, it was still sex outside of marriage.



Yeah, nah:

First, it is important to note that the application of the Zina Ordinance in Pakistan has placed a new twist and a renewed urgency on the question of its validity. The twist is this: when a zina-bil-jabr (rape) case fails for lack of four witnesses, the Pakistani legal system has more than once concluded that the intercourse was therefore consensual, and consequently has charged rape victims with zina (consentual sex that isnt rape). A few disturbing cases will illustrate the concern. In 1982, fifteenyear-old Jehan Mina became pregnant as a result of a reported rape. Lacking the testimony of four eyewitnesses that the intercourse was in fact rape, Jehan was convicted of zina on the evidence of her illegitimate pregnancy. Her child was born in prison.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1467&context=mjil

See the problem this creates? If you're going to police and admitting you had sex with someone (which is an element of rape), but you did not consent the court could find the sex happened (not an issue seeing as you and he admit it did) but lack enough evidence to find he raped you.

You then get punished.

Why would you report such a thing happening if an acquittal could lead you you being flogged?
They have merely found that there was not enough proof she was raped. It is not the same as proving that she was not raped and she is lying. His word is not worth more than hers. Therefore punishing her would be unjust and unfair.

I have said already that Pakistan is the opposite of a fair and just society so I am not sure what that has to do with anything. That practice is not sanctioned by the Quran as far as I can tell.
 
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They have merely found that there was not enough proof she was raped. It is not the same as proving that she was not raped and she is lying. His word is not worth more than hers. Therefore punishing her would be unjust and unfair.
No you don't understand.

To prove a crime you need to prove all the elements of the crime. In the case of rape you need 2 elements: [sexual penetration] and [lack of consent].

Presume a woman pregnant with a mans child (not her husband) accuses that man of rape. She goes to the police to report it.

Element 1 (sexual penetration) is made out. She's pregnant with his child. Both parties make admissions to the police that the sex happened.

But she cant prove element 2 (lack of consent) as it's his word against her word and there is no other evidence to prove she did not consent. It's a 'he said, she said'.

She now gets flogged. She's admitted to having sex, outside of marriage, and that sex was proved to not be rape.
 

FalcoX

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No you don't understand.

To prove a crime you need to prove all the elements of the crime. In the case of rape you need 2 elements: [sexual penetration] and [lack of consent].

Presume a woman pregnant with a mans child (not her husband) accuses that man of rape. She goes to the police to report it.

Element 1 (sexual penetration) is made out. She's pregnant with his child. Both parties make admissions to the police that the sex happened.

But she cant prove element 2 (lack of consent) as it's his word against her word and there is no other evidence to prove she did not consent. It's a 'he said, she said'.

She now gets flogged. She's admitted to having sex, outside of marriage, and that sex was proved to not be rape.
I understand what you are saying however I disagree that it was proved that there was no rape, for that to occur there would have to be some sort of proof that it was consensual, which there isn't.

All the court found was that there was not enough proof to say that it had happened. Rape can occur even when there is no hard evidence. Shocking, I know.


On the basis of the above, punishing someone for coming forward to report rape would fly in the face of any notion of fairness of justice unless it can be proved that it is a false accusation.
 
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I understand what you are saying however I disagree that it was proved that there was no rape, for that to occur there would have to be some sort of proof that it was consensual, which there isn't.
If I have sex with a woman, and it isn't rape, how can it be anything other than consensual?
 
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He said/she said rape cases happen all over the world.

Can we focus on the whole being lashed for adultery thing? That certainly does not happen all over the world.

Only in the woke West do you have people saying that society should be more tolerant and accepting of religions/cultures like Islam and at the same time complaining of an oppressive patriarchy because women don't make up 50% of CEOs.
 
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