Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

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Norm Smith Medallist
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How is that relevant to why Australia has higher civic engagement levels relative to China? Why do we?
Possibly buried deep in our history:

And back in 2003, a piece in the American Conservative magazine warned that democracy would not flourish in Iraq because of its high rate of cousin marriage. However, at the time there was certainly a sort of a priori idea that democracy must be replicable anywhere, because to say otherwise would be racist. David Cameron made that exact argument around the time of the Arab spring. A rather wiser minister, the United Arab Emirates ambassador Oma Saif Ghobash, explained in a 2014 lecture that Arab democracy was vulnerable, not just because of Islamism, but ‘also because of the lack of institutions that can rise above partisan politics’. He said:​
‘Given the social, cultural and educational realities of our part of the world, many of us recognise that an introduction of electoral democracy that precedes the development of effective, impartial institutions may exacerbate tribal and sectarian divisions’​
One of the reasons that Islamism emerges so quickly in clannish countries is that it is the only force that can overcome deep-seated tribal divisions. One of the attractions of religious movements in politics is that Islam is seen – with good reason – as being a force for reducing corruption and raising public morals. Hardliners such as Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt appeal to people sickened by corruption and clan-based nepotism, so that given a choice of a crook or a fascist they will opt for the latter. The Brotherhood’s economic platform upon taking power in Egypt was simply ‘more virtue’, which unfortunately didn’t produce quite the economic miracle they might have hoped for. This is why the idea of trying to spread democracy everywhere is not a wise one; it’s why I despair when I hear western politicians talk about installing democracy in Syria (cousin marriage rate: 35 per cent).​

 

Malifice

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Strong belief in democracy and individual freedom (derives from both of the above).
So Hitler, Franco, Salazar, Napoleon, Mussolini etc...

Not 'Western'?

Has the concept of free will (effectively non existent in other cultures)

Probably can't be Islamic faith and Western. Islam for instance lacks the full concept of free will - all will is subordinate to Allah's will and predestined.
There have been plenty of people (and Theologians and Philosophers) in the West who disagree with the existence of Free will. Heck; Determinism was coined in Europe (Greece) in the 7th century BC.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Augustine of Hippo are 'not Western' I guess:

The notions of free will and predestination are heavily debated among Christians. Free will in the Christian sense is the ability to choose between good or evil. Among Catholics, there are those holding to Thomism, adopted from what Thomas Aquinas put forth in the Summa Theologica. There are also some holding to Molinism which was put forth by Jesuit priest Luis de Molina. Among Protestants there is Arminianism, held primarily by Methodist and some Baptist, and formulated by Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius; and there is also Calvinism held by most in the Reformed tradition which was formulated by the French Reformed theologian, John Calvin. John Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine of Hippo views on predestination put forth in his work On the Predestination of the Saints.Martin Luther seems to hold views on predestination similar to Calvinism in his On the Bondage of the Will, thus rejecting free will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Eastern_philosophy

As for Islam and Free will:

In Islam the theological issue is not usually how to reconcile free will with God's foreknowledge, but with God's jabr, or divine commanding power. al-Ash'ari developed an "acquisition" or "dual-agency" form of compatibilism, in which human free will and divine jabr were both asserted, and which became a cornerstone of the dominant Ash'ari position. Free will, according to Islamic doctrine is the main factor for man's accountability in his/her actions throughout life. Actions taken by people exercising free will are counted on the Day of Judgement because they are their own; however, the free will happens with the permission of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Eastern_philosophy
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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So Hitler, Franco, Salazar, Napoleon, Mussolini etc...

Not 'Western'?
Mao, Hirohito, Xi Jinping, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Mobutu, Charles Taylor, Idi Amin, The Saudis, the Ayatollahs, Saddam Hussein, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane.

The record of the non-West is really bad. No greater murderer in history than ol Chinngis.

There have been plenty of people (and Theologians and Philosophers) in the West who disagree with the existence of Free will. Heck; Determinism was coined in Europe (Greece) in the 7th century BC.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Augustine of Hippo are 'not Western' I guess:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Eastern_philosophy

As for Islam and Free will:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Eastern_philosophy
Thank you Wikipedia. Free will in Islam does not exist. Your will is subordinate to Allah's - this is not the case in the Western conception of it.
 

Malifice

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Mao, Hirohito, Xi Jinping, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Mobutu, Charles Taylor, Idi Amin, The Saudis, the Ayatollahs, Saddam Hussein, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane.

The record of the non-West is really bad. No greater murderer in history than ol Chinngis.
Funny how you equate ethnic nationalists and fascists as being 'really bad' and 'in opposition to Western Values of open and fair democracy and liberalism', yet in the same breath advocate for ethnic nationalism.

How do you reconcile your slavish love of 'superior Western Culture and its embrace of open democracies and tolerance', with your rampant support for ethnic nationalism and opposition to liberalism?

Thank you Wikipedia. Free will in Islam does not exist. Your will is subordinate to Allah's - this is not the case in the Western conception of it.
Yeah, neither of those statements is true.

I can literally cite prominent Christian theologians that argue for the lack of free will, and Islamic scholars who assert its existence.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Funny how you equate ethnic nationalists and fascists as being 'really bad' and 'in opposition to Western Values of open and fair democracy and liberalism', yet in the same breath advocate for ethnic nationalism.

How do you reconcile your slavish love of 'superior Western Culture and its embrace of open democracies and tolerance', with your rampant support for ethnic nationalism and opposition to liberalism?
It's right there in the article above - there are some cultures better suited to integrating with Western Culture and its openness than others. The reason why may have deep historical foundations.

You believe in it's inexorable conquest over all other forms of culture - like post-regime change Iraq opening up to democracy, or like some bonehead from the World Economic Forum in 1999 thinking that by opening up trade with China, they too will become a liberal democracy.
I can literally cite prominent Christian theologians that argue for the lack of free will, and Islamic scholars who assert its existence.
So what? What matters is its understanding in the culture.
 

Malifice

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It's right there in the article above - there are some cultures better suited to integrating with Western Culture and its openness than others. The reason why may have deep historical foundations.
So your argument can be broken down as:

''In order to protect Western civilization and culture, and it's open and free society, commitment to democracy, secular pluralism and liberalism... we need to embrace ethnic nationalism and persecute brown people.''

Nothing hypocritical in that statement at all.

You believe in it's inexorable conquest over all other forms of culture - like post-regime change Iraq opening up to democracy, or like some bonehead from the World Economic Forum in 1999 thinking that by opening up trade with China, they too will become a liberal democracy.
No, I dont.

I dont believe in a 'clash of the cultures' at all.

So what? What matters is its understanding in the culture.
Cultures cant believe in free will (or not believe in it).

Lets assume for a second I dont believe in free will.

Am I no longer 'Western'?
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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So your argument can be broken down as:

''In order to protect Western civilization and culture, and it's open and free society, commitment to democracy, secular pluralism and liberalism... we need to embrace ethnic nationalism and persecute brown people.''

Nothing hypocritical in that statement at all.
Whereas yours is that "in order to protect Western civilization and culture, and it's open and free society, commitment to democracy, secular pluralism and liberalism" we must open our borders to those from cultures who explicitly reject all of that.

I don't see that succeeding long term.

No, I dont.

I dont believe in a 'clash of the cultures' at all.
That wasn't the argument.

Cultures cant believe in free will (or not believe in it).

Lets assume for a second I dont believe in free will.

Am I no longer 'Western'?
Depends - do you still lead an individuated life?
 

Malifice

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Whereas yours is that "in order to protect Western civilization and culture, and it's open and free society, commitment to democracy, secular pluralism and liberalism" we must open our borders to those from cultures who explicitly reject all of that.

I don't see that succeeding long term.
Then you're a fool.

Your 'solution' to protecting 'western culture' was tried already remember? How did that fare for the Germans?

Depends - do you still lead an individuated life?
If I lack free will, my life is scripted, so no.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Then you're a fool.

Your 'solution' to protecting 'western culture' was tried already remember? How did that fare for the Germans?
Is the only alternative to open borders Nazism?

This is like the argument among Freo fans that if we sack Ross Lyon we'd end up with Mark Neeld.

Do you think the 1 billion or so Africans should be free to live in Europe? If they all move there, does Europe remain "Europe" in the sense we understand it, or does it become more like Africa?

If I lack free will, my life is scripted, so no.
So you cease to travel, become rededicated to extended family, etc?
 

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Malifice

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Is the only alternative to open borders Nazism?
You're the one advocating ethnic nationalism.

I presume this includes forcible removal of 'non Western influences' and some light genocide, in addition to a race based migration program?

So you cease to travel, become rededicated to extended family, etc?
Scripted. Not free will remember. I dont believe in it. Everything I do is pre-ordained.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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You're the one advocating ethnic nationalism.

I presume this includes forcible removal of 'non Western influences' and some light genocide, in addition to a race based migration program?
You're the one advocating open borders. Answer the question:

Do you think the 1 billion or so Africans should be free to live in Europe? If they all move there, does Europe remain "Europe" in the sense we understand it, or does it become more like Africa?​

Scripted. Not free will remember. I dont believe in it. Everything I do is pre-ordained.
But if its preordained who or what preordained it?
 

Malifice

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You're the one advocating open borders.
No, I'm not.

Answer the question:

Do you think the 1 billion or so Africans should be free to live in Europe? If they all move there, does Europe remain "Europe" in the sense we understand it, or does it become more like Africa?​
1) No, because I have no idea where an extra 1 billion people are going to live in Europe. You're more than doubling its population. Presuming Europe could support a population that large, then I don't give a s**t if those extra 1 billion people have black skin, white skin or some other shade in between.

2) No, I dont think Europe changes (other than people looking different) as skin color is not a determinant of 'culture'.

But if its preordained who or what preordained it?
Does it matter if I said:

1) God
2) Aliens
3) Mohammed
4) Trump
5) The Jews
6) The Matrix

Do any of those answers make me 'no longer Western'?

Am I still Western if I reject democracy and charity (I'm a Fascist), Jesus' divinity (I'm also a Buddhist), free will (as a Buddhist I embrace universal determinism: every effect, without exception, has a cause)... but am a white skinned guy from Edinburgh who is called John Smith?

You ethnic nationalists talk 'culture' all the ******* time. When it boils down to it you're just spelling 'color' wrong.
 
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Norm Smith Medallist
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No, I'm not.
Yes, you are. You constantly espouse it.



1) No, because I have no idea where an extra 1 billion people are going to live in Europe. You're more than doubling its population. Presuming Europe could support a population that large, then I don't give a s**t if those extra 1 billion people have black skin, white skin or some other shade in between.

2) No, I dont think Europe changes (other than people looking different) and skin color is determinative of 'culture'.
What determines culture? Do people give their culture up on migrating? No, in fact we insist they keep it under the auspices of “multiculturalism”.
 

Malifice

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Yes, you are. You constantly espouse it.
No I dont.

In an ideal world, I would like to see increased freedom of movement, and increased integration. The ability to pick up and move wherever you want, and work wherever you want, and live wherever you want. I'd like to see borders removed not opened.

Of course, in an ideal world, I would also like to stop all wars, but that's not going to happen.

I've never once said that I support Australia throwing open its borders to all and sundry (in isolation), or any other country for that matter though.

Just like I don't support us disbanding our Military either, despite me opposing warfare.

What determines culture?
It's socially constructed and agreed on via broad consensus. Like race and ethnicity and nationality.

Do people give their culture up on migrating?
Depends on the person.

No, in fact we insist they keep it under the auspices of “multiculturalism”.
No we dont. We just dont force new arrivals to change (other than expressly conforming to our laws, and eventually our language). We dont impose our culture on other people by force. We're not the god-damned Borg from Star Trek.

What law does Australia have that 'insists' new arrivals 'keep their culture'? Can you point me to this 'enforced multicultural' legislation that I've missed?

Question for you now: You've repeatedly asserted before that you're 'not a white person'. Have you failed to culturally assimilate for some reason?
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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It's socially constructed and agreed on via broad consensus.
Saying culture is socially constructed is a good way to say nothing at all. Who socially constructs it? Who agrees upon it via consensus? Why are there cousin marriage taboos in the West and not in Islamic cultures? Why is cousin marriage still highly prevalent in British Pakistani communities despite being in Britain for 50+ years?
 

JackOutback

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You're the one advocating open borders. Answer the question:

Do you think the 1 billion or so Africans should be free to live in Europe? If they all move there, does Europe remain "Europe" in the sense we understand it, or does it become more like Africa?​


But if its preordained who or what preordained it?
Didn’t know Europe had a single culture. As for the question, everyone in the world could move there and it would still be the same land mass.
 

Malifice

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Saying culture is socially constructed is a good way to say nothing at all. Who socially constructs it?
Human society.

Who agrees upon it via consensus?
Human society.

Why are there cousin marriage taboos in the West and not in Islamic cultures?
The society there agrees (via consensus) it is/ is not.

Same reason Dog flesh is taboo in Australia, but not in Korea.

For stupid, arbitrary and socially agreed on (and socially constructed) reasons.
 

Malifice

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You really seem to have a great amount of difficulty knowing the difference between something objective (like a rock, or a tree, or the Sun) that exists in the absence of human social construction (maybe - the Solipsists would disagree!) and something that is subjectively socially constructed (like a nation, or culture, or ethnic group, or legal code, or a religion, or a taboo, or a custom) which disappears without consensus as to it's existence and form.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Human society.

Human society.

The society there agrees (via consensus) it is/ is not.

Same reason Dog flesh is taboo in Australia, but not in Korea.

For stupid, arbitrary and socially agreed on (and socially constructed) reasons.
What is human society?

Why does a society that has cousin marriage as a taboo harbour a population with high rates of cousin marriage? Where is the consensus? How do these two groups, with intractable differences, coexist peacefully long term?
 

Malifice

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What is human society?
A society is a group of individuals involved in persistent social interaction, or a large social group sharing the same geographical or social territory, typically subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. Societies are characterized by patterns of relationships (social relations) between individuals who share a distinctive culture and institutions; a given society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent of members. In the social sciences, a larger society often exhibits stratification or dominance patterns in subgroups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

A group of people, who bond together under a geographical, social, political, cultural, familial or other bond.

All of which are socially constructed, by that group of people, and accepted as such by other groups. They have no basis in objective fact; they're arbitrary and socially constructed.

Why does a society that has cousin marriage as a taboo harbour a population with high rates of cousin marriage?
First-cousin marriages are legal in the UK are they not?

How do these two groups, with intractable differences, coexist?
By co-existing.

One of my next door neighbors is camper than a pack of tents. The other one I'm fairly sure is a Meth head. I work with a Muslim Pakistani lady that married her second Cousin, a black lady from Algeria, a Scottish girl, and another girl who is a Burlesque dancer.

Cant say we've tried to kill each other yet, but I do have my suspicions about the meth-head.
 

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