Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

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Malifice

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The claim that upsets some folks on the left is that there is something baked into certain expressions of Islam that places it at odds with secular Western values, and that this complicates integration.
Which is accepted by 'the Left'.

You think anyone on the Greens support FGM, child marriages, entrenched sexism and homophobia of conservative religions or terror attacks, or the fundamentalist ideology behind them?

The left simply state there is a distinction to be made between the overwhelming number of Muslims (your Bachar Houlis and Adam Saads) who are law abiding people who have immigrated into Australia more or less seamlessly, and your radicalised Daesh member racing off to Syria to fight (who compromise a tiny proportion of Muslims).

All too often these 'criticisms of certain expressions of Islam' are tarring all Muslims with the same brush (usually backed by calls to persecute them specifically), and that's the stuff that 'the left' rail against.
 

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Malifice

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Please tear this idea to bits, but I think if you could show that sexual assault rose by 20% in a year and the increase in perpetrators happened to be the same number of non immigrants with the 20% increase being the sizable increase in immigrant offenders then you would be able to make a claim that the immigration has lead to higher sexual assault.
Im not sure that follows.

Obviously if you suddenly increase the population by X number of people with Y background, you're going to get an increase in crime (simply due to the population increase) and more people of Y background are going to feature in the statistics (becuase there are more of them to count now).

If there are (say) 5 Aussies of Japansese background with 1 currently in prison, and then 100,000 more immigrate over a single year, I would expect to see more than 1 Japanese person in prison over the following years.
 

Malifice

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If cultures are the same and people are the same, then why shouldn't we be afraid of things like honour killings?
When was the last honor killing in Australia? How many of them happen exactly? And isnt the criminal justice system already equipped to deal with such things?

What is there to be afraid of exactly?
 

Ben The Donkey

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Indigenous and immigrant women are not only overly represented per capita in violent crime or abuse statistics, but also far less likely to report it, on the basis of cultural barriers alone.
If one were to expand the legal definitions of what constitutes abuse, and if the reporting of such abuse were more widespread among women, I'd expect to see that gap widen even further.
 

Malifice

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Indigenous and immigrant women are not only overly represented per capita in violent crime or abuse statistics, but also far less likely to report it, on the basis of cultural barriers alone.
With the common denominator between the two and the likely cause being 'poverty' and not 'being brown skinned'.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You think anyone on the Greens support FGM, child marriages, entrenched sexism and homophobia of conservative religions or terror attacks, or the fundamentalist ideology behind them?
Again, I didn't say that.

I said there is a reflexive and ideological backlash against critiques that diagnose certain Islamic doctrines as a specific and particular part of the problem.

And this backlash often appears to be in conflict with other simultaneous commitments. For example, we hear plenty from Western feminists about toxic masculinity and how it's pathologised among white males. But many of these same people are apparently less eager to explore toxic masculinity when it emanates from expressions of conservative Islam. And when Hirsi Ali does it, she becomes a lightning rod for criticism.

If toxic masculinity is such a problem, why wouldn't these feminists be more willing to zero in on belief systems that inculcate it? Instead, they demonise Ali for pointing it out.

I think a partial explanation is the role of "power" in forming these commitments. It's one thing for Western feminists to criticise toxic masculinity among white males, who theoretically have more power, but another to make that claim about religious minorities, who theoretically have less power.

The left simply state there is a distinction to be made between the overwhelming number of Muslims (your Bachar Houlis and Adam Saads) who are law abiding people who have immigrated into Australia more or less seamlessly, and your radicalised Daesh member racing off to Syria to fight (who compromise a tiny proportion of Muslims).
Of course there's a distinction. Who claims otherwise?

Some folks on the left do more than insist on this obvious distinction. They object to suggestions that the doctrines themselves are problematic. And when someone like Hirsi Ali comes along and examines what she calls "the theological warrant for intolerance and violence embedded in religious texts", she is vilified as a racist who "tars all Muslims" when she explicitly doesn't.

All too often these 'criticisms of certain expressions of Islam' are tarring all Muslims with the same brush (usually backed by calls to persecute them specifically), and that's the stuff that 'the left' rail against.
They're not. They're specific criticisms of the doctrines and their expression. The claim that "it tars all Muslims" is simply the preferred red herring to shut down those criticisms. It's Ben Affleck v Sam Harris all over again.


 

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Sweet Jesus

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Are 'honor killings' an an issue in the West we really need to worry about or are we jumping at shadows again?
That wasn't my question.

Are honour killings carried out by "men" generally? Or is it a phenomenon located disproportionately within a particular subset?

Honor killing - Wikipedia

TL;DR - for cultural reasons. Not religious ones.

Is there a problem in the West where 'honor killings' are at risk of being culturally accepted?
Again, not my question. And I'm not sure what point you think this wiki link makes?

Who carries out honour killings? Would you simply say "men carry out honour killings"? Or is it more specific than that?

You say it's "cultural" - what does that mean? Which cultures are you talking about? That aside, surely religion and culture overlap. Or do you think there is no such thing as "Islamic culture"?
 
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Ben The Donkey

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With the common denominator between the two and the likely cause being 'poverty' and not 'being brown skinned'.
Poverty is a factor in all violence and abuse, but if you were to take away all of the cases where it was a factor, you'll get a much clearer picture of cultural attitudes.

What's being brown skinned got to do with it, other than as a genetic marker signifying where an immigrant most likely came from?
 
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Malifice

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Again, I didn't say that.

I said there is a reflexive and ideological backlash against critiques that diagnose certain Islamic doctrines as a specific and particular part of the problem.
And again, I disagree with that.

Provide me with an example of any mainstream 'leftist' support of FGM, Daesh, radicalization, Salafi Islam or anything else of that nature.

The issue is people on the 'right' all too often demonize all muslims (usually because right wing people are xenophobic, or outright racist) which is what the 'left' take issue with. The 'right' then seem to take havin those views criticized and labeled as the xenophobia it is, as the 'left' supporting all aspects of Islam (including the above) which is not that case at all.

The phenomenon your asserting happens, does not in fact happen. Its a perception, not the reality.

I cop it too with people accusing me of 'supporting Islam' when the reality is (if you go through my posts) I've been highly critical of Salafi Islam (and other aspects of the religion) while also drawing the distinction between Muslims generally and the small core of *******s that go off to fight in Syria or blow themselves up at children's concerts.
 

Malifice

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Are honour killings carried out by "men" generally? Or is it a phenomenon located disproportionately within a particular subset?
I dont have statistics at hand, but I would say a resounding yes to that first question - the overwhelming number of honor killings are carried out by men.

And no, it is not disproportionately within a particular subset (i.e Islam). They're not religious in nature, they're cultural (Indonesia and Malaysia for example doesnt have them, where the Pashtun people in the hills of Afghanistan and Pakistan and the surrounds have a lot of them).

In fact if you were to round up a list of all perpetrators of honor killings, you would find all different religions, ethnicities, cultures and so forth engaging in the practice of honor killing a woman.

I bet you the perpetrators are nearly all male though. Gender would be the strongest indicator, over any other factor.
 

Sweet Jesus

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And again, I disagree with that.

Provide me with an example of any mainstream 'leftist' support of FGM, Daesh, radicalization, Salafi Islam or anything else of that nature.
Why do you keep suggesting this is my argument? Where have I suggested people support Islamic State? Is this a deliberate mischaracterisation?

The "debate" between Ben Affleck and Sam Harris is a straightforward example of someone on the "mainstream left" taking issue with a reasoned critique of Islamic doctrine, claiming it's inherently racist. No one will mistake Ben Affleck for a great thinker but it's a thumbnail sketch of the reflexive opposition to these critiques.

The issue is people on the 'right' all too often demonize all muslims (usually because right wing people are xenophobic, or outright racist) which is what the 'left' take issue with. The 'right' then seem to take havin those views criticized and labeled as the xenophobia it is, as the 'left' supporting all aspects of Islam (including the above) which is not that case at all.
This has nothing to do with my argument. You are arguing against RW racism/xenophobia when that's not the position I'm presenting. My position is not about "demonising all Muslims" so you're arguing against a position that has nothing to do with me.

The phenomenon your asserting happens, does not in fact happen. Its a perception, not the reality.
See the Affleck/Harris exchange.

I cop it too with people accusing me of 'supporting Islam' when the reality is (if you go through my posts) I've been highly critical of Salafi Islam (and other aspects of the religion) while also drawing the distinction between Muslims generally and the small core of *******s that go off to fight in Syria or blow themselves up at children's concerts.
I'm not sure what point this makes. You reassert an obvious distinction that no sane person disputes. That's not my argument.

It would be a reasonable response if I was saying "all Muslims are inherently as bad as each other, regardless of whether they're decent law-abiding citizens or violent terrorists".

But I'm not saying that. I'm not sure why you keep asserting this distinction like I've suggested it doesn't exist. It goes without saying.

I'm presenting a liberal critique of Islam and examining some of the reasons others on the left are indifferent or even hostile to it.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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I dont have statistics at hand, but I would say a resounding yes to that first question - the overwhelming number of honor killings are carried out by men.
Yes, they are carried out by men but limiting it to men generically is a deliberate elision of the facts.

And no, it is not disproportionately within a particular subset (i.e Islam). They're not religious in nature, they're cultural (Indonesia and Malaysia for example doesnt have them, where the Pashtun people in the hills of Afghanistan and Pakistan and the surrounds have a lot of them).
Culture and religion overlap. Treating them as mutually exclusive is absurd.

In fact if you were to round up a list of all perpetrators of honor killings, you would find all different religions, ethnicities, cultures and so forth engaging in the practice of honor killing a woman.

I bet you the perpetrators are nearly all male though. Gender would be the strongest indicator, over any other factor.
This is the kind of obscurantism I'm talking about.

You are unwilling to acknowledge that honour killings are more commonly committed by Muslim men than by men generally. That's not the same as saying "all Muslim men". It is simply making the point that these crimes occur more commonly in some cultures than others.

What are the ideological commitments that prevent you from acknowledging this?

If we were to talk about the scourge of RW militia violence in the US, I wonder if you'd be so unwilling to locate the problem more specifically. I suspect you'd be far more willing to implicate white men, instead of simply emphasising gender at the exclusion of all else. These blinkers are an impediment to reasoned discussion.
 

Malifice

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If you exclude the people who would suggest that cultural incongruities evaporate when people move country, then no, nothing to worry about.
So you're saying we should ban Pashtun immigration due to the high rates of Honor killings there?

Why not simply ban male immigration? That's excludes 99 percent of rapists, honor killings, sexual assaults, mass shooters and so forth right there.
 

Sweet Jesus

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It's more accurate statement than 'They are carried out by Muslims'.
You know what would be even more accurate?

We should just say "they are carried out by people".

Wouldn't that be even better?

Again, this is the kind of obscurantism I'm talking about. There is a liberal critique of Islam but some folks refuse to acknowledge the role of culture/religion at all.

Who did 9/11? Men!

Why did Salman Rushdie spend so many years in hiding? Because he wrote a book some men didn't like.

Yeah, nailed it. Make sure you don't mention Islam!
 
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Taylor

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So you're saying we should ban Pashtun immigration due to the high rates of Honor killings there?

Why not simply ban male immigration? That's excludes 99 percent of rapists, honor killings, sexual assaults, mass shooters and so forth right there.
I'm actually saying that the risk to our society isn't from people who come from different cultures bringing their different values with them here, it's from people here already who campaign for the position that there is no difference in the cultures and nothing needs to be done to mitigate those values so they can better adjust to our way of life and what we value.
 

Taylor

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some folks refuse to acknowledge the role of culture/religion at all
If you acknowledge a difference then you open the discussion to which is better.

And they can't have that. For one, it encourages people to think of their current lifestyle in the west as luxurious and valuable - that is worth protecting which limits the "society is bad and the country sucks" style politics some people on the far left propegate.

The other risk is that it opens the door to nationalists who for the reasons above take action to protect what they have at the expense of those who might want to make a life here and that can put good and innocent people in the target of dangerous people, which is the exact opposite of what the nationalists were seeking to do (since they think they are protecting innocents from dangerous others) but happens all the same.
 

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