Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

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Lsta062

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It's not circular. You're just running out of excuses and your bad arguments are failing.

You already conceded that the guy who beheaded Samuel Paty was motivated by Islam. If it weren't for those religious beliefs about blasphemy and depicting the prophet, Samuel Paty wouldn't have been killed. Do you accept that?

Seems pretty undeniable at this point, doesn't it?

Similarly, the Taliban bans women playing sport because they say women could be "exposed", and they don't want that. Again, for purely religious reasons.

What about the homosexuals who get caned under shariah law in Aceh? Are you cool with that or is that also a misreading of Islamic doctrine?
It IS a circular argument because you’re simply not understanding what I am saying. It’s like speaking to a wall.

If you want my opinions on anything, just read what I wrote in the previous posts. I’m not going to spend my time writing to you any further about this.
 

Sweet Jesus

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It IS a circular argument because you’re simply not understanding what I am saying.
I'm watching you run up against the limits of your arguments.

If you want my opinions on anything, just read what I wrote in the previous posts. I’m not going to spend my time writing to you any further about this.
Yeah, because your arguments have failed.

You already conceded that the guy who beheaded Samuel Paty was motivated by Islam. If it weren't for those religious beliefs about blasphemy and depicting the prophet, Samuel Paty wouldn't have been killed. Do you accept that?

You've already conceded the point but you can't bring yourself to accept the logical conclusions.
 

JayJ20

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Suicide may not be allowed by Islamic theology but martyrdom is.

Killing innocent people may not be allowed but ‘innocent’ is subjective to these Muslims. Some Muslims believe that Muslim lands are being occupied and thus such attacks are justified by them.

The premise of Islam is fundamentally flawed so I would suggest that it’s folly to argue a ‘true Islam’. Such misinterpretations have existed since Islam’s inception. A holistic approach is not to champion a particular form of Islam as much as it is to challenge Islam itself.
How can you attain martyrdom by wilfully killing yourself? It's contradictory. And there are many different types of martyrs. "Innocence" isn't subjective. It's very clearly defined. It's not a matter of a difference of opinion. It doesn't matter what they believe they are doing. If it contravenes Islamic Law, then they are not following Islamic Law. It's very simple.

Let me give you a familiar term to explain one type of martyrdom (which is what you're trying to refer to). You call them fallen soldiers in war. You know how Australians commemorate the ANZACs who died fighting in a war? And how Americans also commemorate their fallen soldiers? Yeah Islamically, a fallen soldier in a war is considered a martyr. Funny you brought up the topic of war given that's a clear example of hypocrisy by the media and other commentators.

Another type of martyrdom is dying from drowning.
Another type of type of martyrdom is dying by falling from a high place.
Another type of martyrdom is dying from a stomach disease, including diarrhoea.
Another type of martyrdom is dying from contracting the plague.
Another type of martyrdom is a woman dying during childbirth.

Suicide bombing isn't any type of martyrdom. It's killing innocent people and committing suicide. In other words, it's a murder-suicide. If someone walks on the street and commits suicide after killing an innocent bystander, do you call them a fallen soldier? No you don't. Neither do we.

You completely ate up the lies propagated by media outlets and commentators that have no idea what they're talking about.

"A particular form of Islam".
What I said isn't a "form of Islam". It IS Islam because it follows what's in the Qur'an, Hadith and Scholarly consensus. There is no difference of opinion among credible Scholars in the Islamic knowledge about the prohibition of committing suicide and killing innocent people. It is literally a consensus. Even if 10 million people commit suicide, it doesn't change the fact that it is Islamically prohibited.
 

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Lsta062

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I'm watching you run up against the limits of your arguments.

Yeah, because your arguments have failed.

You already conceded that the guy who beheaded Samuel Paty was motivated by Islam. If it weren't for those religious beliefs about blasphemy and depicting the prophet, Samuel Paty wouldn't have been killed. Do you accept that?
I even inserted the teacher example so that you understand my point about the beheading. That’s why I say that you aren’t understanding what I am saying.

It is clear to me that it is not my arguments that have failed. It is simply you that failed to understand them.

As I said, I am not going to spend any more time talking to you on this. If you want to understand, go read my previous posts.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I even inserted the teacher example so that you understand my point about the beheading. That’s why I say that you aren’t understanding what I am saying.

It is clear to me that it is not my arguments that have failed. It is simply you that failed to understand them.

As I said, I am not going to spend any more time talking to you on this. If you want to understand, go read my previous posts.
You're just chasing your own tail now. There's not a clear argument in your above post. You're just looking for an exit.

You've already conceded that the guy who beheaded Samuel Paty was motivated by Islam.
 

Lsta062

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You're just chasing your own tail now. There's not a clear argument in your above post. You're just looking for an exit.

You've already conceded that the guy who beheaded Samuel Paty was motivated by Islam.
There is actually a clear argument there that lays out my position. You’re just not understanding it. You wouldn’t keep bringing up Samuel Paty if you understood it
 

Wombot

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Maybe you should understand what I am talking about first before quoting me.

Forming a critical opinion on Islam is completely different to saying what Islam teaches. I am talking about knowing what Islam actually teaches. You literally cannot know what is within Islamic knowledge without learning from Islamic scholars and Islamic circles of knowledge…
If by ‘Islamic scholars’ you include ex-Muslims and otherwise non-Muslims who have studied Islam then I’d agree with you. But the problem with listening to believers of Islam is that they’ve been brainwashed into believing the illogical, so their opinion is compromised.
 

Sweet Jesus

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There is actually a clear argument there that lays out my position. You’re just not understanding it. You wouldn’t keep bringing up Samuel Paty if you understood it
Mate, people know what it looks like when someone has lost an argument.

You keep insisting you've got some super smart position that explains everything but you can't seem to articulate it.

Maybe it's actually because your arguments have failed.
 

JackOutback

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Mate, people know what it looks like when someone has lost an argument.

You keep insisting you've got some super smart position that explains everything but you can't seem to articulate it.

Maybe it's actually because your arguments have failed.
They do; usually the one who has lost declares themselves the winner. As you are.

This is what arguing with Sweet Jesus is like. Walls of text, the same thing over and over, ignoring people’s questions and then smugly declaring himself the winner. It is not debating in good faith. It’s frankly embarrassing from someone (I assume) is an adult.

You were asked a very specific question about where in the Koran it explicitly bans women playing sport. Which book? It’s a question that very much goes to your claimed understanding of the topic. Are you going to answer or are you still googling?
 

Lsta062

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If by ‘Islamic scholars’ you include ex-Muslims and otherwise non-Muslims who have studied Islam then I’d agree with you. But the problem with listening to believers of Islam is that they’ve been brainwashed into believing the illogical, so their opinion is compromised.
But Islamic knowledge is passed down through narrations from one person to another. The knowledge isn’t like the knowledge of Western medicine for example where the knowledge is obtained through clinical trials and studies. Islamic knowledge is transmitted through a chain of narrations from the works and narrations of Islamic scholars.

Therefore, a non-Muslim cannot avoid learning from Islamic scholars if they want to be knowledgeable about Islam because these Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the ones that passed the knowledge down to us in the first place.

Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the source of where we get the current Islamic knowledge from for over 1,000 years. Non-Muslims do not have a chain of transmission that lasts 1,400 years about Islamic knowledge like what Muslims do, so non-Muslims cannot dispute what Islamic scholars say is a part of the teachings of Islam and what they say is not a part of its teachings.

Again, the criticism of what Islam teaches is a complete different thing to what I am talking about. I am just talking about confirming what is actually from Islam and what is not. This cannot be done without seeking knowledge from Islamic scholars.
 

Sweet Jesus

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They do; usually the one who has lost declares themselves the winner. As you are.
You stopped trying to make your case ages ago.

After this post you just slunk off because you knew you had no sensible response.

This is what arguing with Sweet Jesus is like. Walls of text, the same thing over and over, ignoring people’s questions and then smugly declaring himself the winner. It is not debating in good faith. It’s frankly embarrassing from someone (I assume) is an adult.
I've presented several examples that make my case and you guys have got nothing.

All you do is obfuscate and avoid the evidence because the obvious conclusions make you uncomfortable.

You're so desperate to ignore the connection between the belief system and the behaviour. It's remarkable. You guys are like flat-earthers.

I'm still curious to know, though, what do you think your denial achieves?

You were asked a very specific question about where in the Koran it explicitly bans women playing sport. Which book? It’s a question that very much goes to your claimed understanding of the topic. Are you going to answer or are you still googling?
I addressed that. The Taliban's ban is not about women's sport per se. Obviously there's not a verse in the Koran that says women can't play cricket. Rather, the Taliban's decision was about women being "exposed", which they don't want, for religious reasons. That's been stated several times.

Did you think you were onto a winner here?

You've been clean bowled over and over. Stop kidding yourself.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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But Islamic knowledge is passed down through narrations from one person to another. The knowledge isn’t like the knowledge of Western medicine for example where the knowledge is obtained through clinical trials and studies. Islamic knowledge is transmitted through a chain of narrations from the works and narrations of Islamic scholars.
It's "science".

Therefore, a non-Muslim cannot avoid learning from Islamic scholars if they want to be knowledgeable about Islam because these Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the ones that passed the knowledge down to us in the first place.

Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the source of where we get the current Islamic knowledge from for over 1,000 years. Non-Muslims do not have a chain of transmission that lasts 1,400 years about Islamic knowledge like what Muslims do, so non-Muslims cannot dispute what Islamic scholars say is a part of the teachings of Islam and what they say is not a part of its teachings.

Again, the criticism of what Islam teaches is a complete different thing to what I am talking about. I am just talking about confirming what is actually from Islam and what is not. This cannot be done without seeking knowledge from Islamic scholars.
You could hear Scientologists make the same argument.
 

Wombot

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But Islamic knowledge is passed down through narrations from one person to another. The knowledge isn’t like the knowledge of Western medicine for example where the knowledge is obtained through clinical trials and studies. Islamic knowledge is transmitted through a chain of narrations from the works and narrations of Islamic scholars.

Therefore, a non-Muslim cannot avoid learning from Islamic scholars if they want to be knowledgeable about Islam because these Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the ones that passed the knowledge down to us in the first place.

Islamic scholars that believe in Islam are the source of where we get the current Islamic knowledge from for over 1,000 years. Non-Muslims do not have a chain of transmission that lasts 1,400 years about Islamic knowledge like what Muslims do, so non-Muslims cannot dispute what Islamic scholars say is a part of the teachings of Islam and what they say is not a part of its teachings.

Again, the criticism of what Islam teaches is a complete different thing to what I am talking about. I am just talking about confirming what is actually from Islam and what is not. This cannot be done without seeking knowledge from Islamic scholars.
Oh if you’re talking about Islamic scholars from over a millenia ago, sure. But what they said about Islam is where everyone gets the opinion that Islam is fascist, supremacist, expansionist, misogynist and homophobic. Any other interpretation is revisionism.
 

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Lsta062

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Mate, people know what it looks like when someone has lost an argument.

You keep insisting you've got some super smart position that explains everything but you can't seem to articulate it.

Maybe it's actually because your arguments have failed.
I don’t know why I am doing this but I’ll explain it again.

My position is that it does NOT matter that this person who beheaded someone did so because they felt grievance about this person in France depicting the Prophet.

If the Religion DID NOT ORDER him to do that, then his ACTIONS simply DO NOT relate to Islam because it is NOT promoted by it to begin with.

Having an issue with depicting the Prophet IS, related to Islam because it teaches this, but the act of beheading IS NOT.

You are repeatedly failing to understand this. That’s why I wanted to stop engaging with you and not because I “lost” the argument according to you. What’s the point of writing to someone who does not understand what you are saying?
 

JackOutback

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You stopped trying to make your case ages ago.

After this post you just slunk off because you knew you had no sensible response.

I've presented several examples that make my case and you guys have got nothing.

All you do is obfuscate and avoid the evidence because the obvious conclusions make you uncomfortable.

You're so desperate to ignore the connection between the belief system and the behaviour. It's remarkable. You guys are like flat-earthers.

I'm still curious to know, though, what do you think your denial achieves?

I addressed that. The Taliban's ban is not about women's sport per se. Obviously there's not a verse in the Koran that says women can't play cricket. Rather, the Taliban's decision was about women being "exposed", which they don't want, for religious reasons. That's been stated several times.

Did you think you were onto a winner here?

You've been clean bowled over and over. Stop kidding yourself.
Slunk off :tearsofjoy:

Mate, I respond when it amuses me, leave when I’m bored (or actually doing stuff), nothing more. I am well aware of the pointlessness of arguing with someone so certain of their own superiority and so lacking in awareness of their own shortcomings.

Declare yourself the winner again.
 

Lsta062

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We can read the Quran, Hadiths

Oh if you’re talking about Islamic scholars from over a millenia ago, sure. But what they said about Islam is where everyone gets the opinion that Islam is fascist, supremacist, expansionist, misogynist and homophobic. Any other interpretation is revisionism.
You can read the Qur’aan and Hadeeth, but you cannot understand them completely without the explanation of Islamic scholars. These texts are over 1,400 years old and the usage of the Arabic language has developed over the years.

Therefore, picking up the Qur’aan and Hadeeths and interpreting its meanings only relying on one’s understanding of modern Arabic doesn’t work. You need to look at the explanations of what the scholars closer to the time of the Prophet said about those verses and Hadeeths, which is why you ultimately cannot avoid learning from Islamic scholars because non-Muslims simply didn’t pass knowledge like this on for hundreds of years.

And again, I am not talking about the criticisms some people have of what is confirmed from the teachings of Islam like its stance against homosexual practices. I am only talking about the process of confirming what is of the Islamic teachings and what is not. You cannot do that without taking from what Islamic scholars taught.
 

Wombot

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I don’t know why I am doing this but I’ll explain it again.

My position is that it does NOT matter that this person who beheaded someone did so because they felt grievance about this person in France depicting the Prophet.

If the Religion DID NOT ORDER him to do that, then his ACTIONS simply DO NOT relate to Islam because it is NOT promoted by it to begin with.

Having an issue with depicting the Prophet IS, related to Islam because it teaches this, but the act of beheading IS NOT.

You are repeatedly failing to understand this. That’s why I wanted to stop engaging with you and not because I “lost” the argument according to you. What’s the point of writing to someone who does not understand what you are saying?
Some major schools of Islam appear to prescribe death for the ‘crime’ of blasphemy. Some nations (comprising of hundreds of millions of people) do indeed have that enshrined in their laws.

I’m not going to argue about an ‘authentic’ Islam. But there evidently IS some dispute amongst Muslims as to the exact punishment for blasphemy. You act as if it definitely isn’t a capital crime in Islam and that isn’t exactly honest.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I don’t know why I am doing this but I’ll explain it again.

My position is that it does NOT matter that this person who beheaded someone did so because they felt grievance about this person in France depicting the Prophet.

If the Religion DID NOT ORDER him to do that, then his ACTIONS simply DO NOT relate to Islam because it is NOT promoted by it to begin with.

Having an issue with depicting the Prophet IS, related to Islam because it teaches this, but the act of beheading IS NOT.

You are repeatedly failing to understand this. That’s why I wanted to stop engaging with you and not because I “lost” the argument according to you. What’s the point of writing to someone who does not understand what you are saying?
His actions "relate to Islam" because his grievance was explicitly religious.

If it weren't for his belief system, he wouldn't have killed someone for "blasphemy".

Which part of that is inaccurate?

It's bizarre watching you guys try to disconnect the dots.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Slunk off :tearsofjoy:

Mate, I respond when it amuses me, leave when I’m bored (or actually doing stuff), nothing more. I am well aware of the pointlessness of arguing with someone so certain of their own superiority and so lacking in awareness of their own shortcomings.

Declare yourself the winner again.
You have no good answers. You're simply in denial and I'd love to know why.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You can read the Qur’aan and Hadeeth, but you cannot understand them completely without the explanation of Islamic scholars. These texts are over 1,400 years old and the usage of the Arabic language has developed over the years.

Therefore, picking up the Qur’aan and Hadeeths and interpreting its meanings only relying on one’s understanding of modern Arabic doesn’t work. You need to look at the explanations of what the scholars closer to the time of the Prophet said about those verses and Hadeeths, which is why you ultimately cannot avoid learning from Islamic scholars because non-Muslims simply didn’t pass knowledge like this on for hundreds of years.

And again, I am not talking about the criticisms some people have of what is confirmed from the teachings of Islam like its stance against homosexual practices. I am only talking about the process of confirming what is of the Islamic teachings and what is not. You cannot do that without taking from what Islamic scholars taught.
Of course, the secret knowledge!

Scientologists have their own version of this.

What makes Islam more credible than Scientology?
 

Lsta062

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Some major schools of Islam appear to prescribe death for the ‘crime’ of blasphemy. Some nations (comprising of hundreds of millions of people) do indeed have that enshrined in their laws.

I’m not going to argue about an ‘authentic’ Islam. But there evidently IS some dispute amongst Muslims as to the exact punishment for blasphemy. You act as if it definitely isn’t a capital crime in Islam and that isn’t exactly honest.
I have not once mentioned or talked about capital punishment for blasphemy in Islam.

Everything that I mentioned in that post related to a person in France beheading someone after they felt grievance that this person depicted the Prophet.
 

Lsta062

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Of course, the secret knowledge!

Scientologists have their own version of this.

What makes Islam more credible than Scientology?
This is exactly what I mean…

I am clearly not talking about whether Islam is considered ‘credible’ in comparison to other systems of belief. Yes, I believe that it is more credible as a Muslim. But, that’s not what I am talking about.

My post is talking about what is credible and what is not when determining what is actually from the Islamic teachings and what is not.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I have not once mentioned or talked about capital punishment for blasphemy in Islam.

Everything that I mentioned in that post related to a person in France beheading someone after they felt grievance that this person depicted the Prophet.
And why did he have this grievance? Because of Islam.

This whole notion of blasphemy is ridiculous. Why on earth is depicting the prophet such a big deal? You don't see Christians shitting their pants over depictions of Jesus.

It's 2021. You can't have a tantrum just because someone shows a picture of your hero. You live in a secular society where people are allowed to do that as a basic freedom of expression. Would you prefer to live in a theocracy where everyone lives according to this medieval bullshit?

Grow up already. Crybabies.
 

Sweet Jesus

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This is exactly what I mean…

I am clearly not talking about whether Islam is considered ‘credible’ in comparison to other systems of belief. Yes, I believe that it is more credible as a Muslim. But, that’s not what I am talking about.

My post is talking about what is credible and what is not when determining what is actually from the Islamic teachings and what is not.
But what's the difference between you saying that about Islam and a Scientologist making similar claims about their "sacred texts"?

When you hear Scientologists talking about Dianetics and auditing and going clear and you go up in levels and finally become an operating thetan and learn about Xenu, does it not sound crazy?

Because to non-believers, you all belong in the same basket of deluded zealots.
 

Lsta062

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His actions "relate to Islam" because his grievance was explicitly religious.

If it weren't for his belief system, he wouldn't have killed someone for "blasphemy".

Which part of that is inaccurate?

It's bizarre watching you guys try to disconnect the dots.
Oh that’s it, I’ve had enough of speaking with you. You’re not comprehending what I’m telling you
 

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