Why Leeds aren't good enough for the PL. Featuring SM & Bostonian

Remove this Banner Ad

Pykie

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 17, 2006
19,518
41,071
Lord's
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Leeds United
Claims I melted yet responded with a longer post than I did. NiCe MeLt..

Over a stretch from 2008-2018 we played in the PL for 5 seasons, an FA Cup Final, a League Cup Semi Final, had a European campaign, and won 3 games at Wembley. Wouldn't exactly call that small time and clearly plenty of kids out there would agree. You can hang your hat on your accomplishments in the 80s and 90s all you want though.
You claimed you were the bigger club for the best part of 15 years though? It's already down to 5?

You are right though, of those 15 years, you were in a higher division for 5 of them. Congratulations. But probably the shortest "generation" ever recorded.

I'm not downplaying the achievements of Hull for that period, what was a great run for what is historically a lower division club.

My original point still stands, Hull isn't a huge rivalry for Leeds fans. Apart from the last 10 years, a period of a few years in the 80's when Hull was in the second division and then right back to the WW2 era, we have barely played each other in league games.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I believe this morning was the first time we have ever played Hull in either the FA or League Cups? There's no cup history there either.

There just isn't a huge history between the clubs other than a few players moving between clubs like Bremner in the mid 70's.

Geographically, Leeds has bigger rivalries against geographically closer clubs who have also been traditionally in a similar division. We've played Sheff Utd and Wed for instance 2-3 times more than we have ever played Hull.

We have famous Cup final histories with Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal. We've lost titles on the last day to Derby, the Yorkshire/Lancashire rivalries with the Manc's. There's rivalries from the terraces with the likes of Millwall.

Hull vs Leeds is a BF thing more than reality and extremely low down the list of priorities for genuine Leeds fans.
 
Last edited:

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
You claimed you were the bigger club for the best part of 15 years though? It's already down to 5?

You are right though, of those 15 years, you were in a higher division for 5 of them. Congratulations. But probably the shortest "generation" ever recorded.

I'm not downplaying the achievements of Hull for that period, what was a great run for what is historically a lower division club.

My original point still stands, Hull isn't a huge rivalry for Leeds fans. Apart from the last 10 years, a period of a few years in the 80's when Hull was in the second division and then right back to the WW2 era, we have barely played each other in league games.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I believe this morning was the first time we have ever played Hull in either the FA or League Cups? There's no cup history there either.

There just isn't a huge history between the clubs other than a few players moving between clubs like Bremner in the mid 70's.

Geographically, Leeds has bigger rivalries against geographically closer clubs who have also been traditionally in a similar division. We've played Sheff Utd and Wed for instance 2-3 times more than we have ever played Hull.

We have famous Cup final histories with Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal. We've lost titles on the last day to Derby, the Yorkshire/Lancashire rivalries with the Manc's. There's rivalries from the terraces with the likes of Millwall.

Hull vs Leeds is a BF thing more than reality and extremely low down the list of priorities for genuine Leeds fans.
2008-2018 is 5 years now? :think:

From about 2004/5 onwards i think there was maybe one season you finished above us before the last few years so I was including those as well, merely rattling off all the achievements we had while you were floundering in L1. :)

"Lower division" uh no. Historically upper Championship club. "Lower division" to me is L1/L2.

Well sure but your point then changed to "BF manufactured rivalry" which was sheer nonsense and what I took issue with. You're more a rival of ours than the other way around and I've never suggested otherwise.

Hull v Leeds is a big deal for City supporters and a section of your supporters were on the way to waking up to their side of it until our latest dip down the table. I suspect if we were to meet in the PL in the coming seasons there would be a decent level of feeling on both sides of it.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Pykie

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 17, 2006
19,518
41,071
Lord's
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Leeds United
2008-2018 is 5 years now? :think:

From about 2004/5 onwards i think there was maybe one season you finished above us before the last few years so I was including those as well, merely rattling off all the achievements we had while you were floundering in L1. :)

We finished ahead of you in 04/05, 05/06, 10/11, 17/18, 18/19, 19/20.

I hardly think you finishing 21st and us 24th in the championship, 8th vs 14th or 4th vs 13th is really enough to sway a whole "generation" of local supporters.

Granted, for 2 years in 08/09/10 when we were in league 1, you finished 17th and 19th in the PL.
You then finished 16th and 18th in 13/14/15 then you yo-yo'd when we just missed the playoffs in 2016.


5 years of those 15 you have been clearly in another division, the other 10 have been on equal terms. I think you are putting a lot of mayo on the situation trying to say we were irrelevant and you were some sort of box office attraction within the championship.

As for "rattling off all the achievements we had while you were floundering in L1". I seem to remember your FA Cup final and your "European campaign" (if you could call it that), occurring when we were in the Championship, where we had been for about 5 years at that point, not L1.


"Lower division" uh no. Historically upper Championship club. "Lower division" to me is L1/L2.
Err, if you say so.

You've spent 40 years of your 105 or so in L1 and L2 and of the 60 (24 of those pre 1935) years you've spent in the Championship, your average finish is 12th. You've spent as many years in the last 2 decades in L1 and L2 as you have in the Championship/PL.

Your average finish in the football pyramid is 43rd during your history in the football league. So borderline L1/Championship. Certainly not upper championship.
 
Last edited:

joop

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 18, 2011
13,445
24,160
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Leeds United
Didn’t we established this like 2 years ago? SM thinks Leeds is Hulls biggest rival. Leeds fans do not.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
We finished ahead of you in 04/05, 05/06, 10/11, 17/18, 18/19, 19/20.

I hardly think you finishing 21st and us 24th in the championship, 8th vs 14th or 4th vs 13th is really enough to sway a whole "generation" of local supporters.

Granted, for 2 years in 08/09/10 when we were in league 1, you finished 17th and 19th in the PL.
You then finished 16th and 18th in 13/14/15 then you yo-yo'd when we just missed the playoffs in 2016.


5 years of those 15 you have been clearly in another division, the other 10 have been on equal terms. I think you are putting a lot of mayo on the situation trying to say we were irrelevant and you were some sort of box office attraction within the championship.

As for "rattling off all the achievements we had while you were floundering in L1". I seem to remember your FA Cup final and your "European campaign" (if you could call it that), occurring when we were in the Championship, where we had been for about 5 years at that point, not L1.
10/11 is the blip I'm thinking of, apart from that until our most recent dip, we'd been ahead of you.



Err, if you say so.

You've spent 40 years of your 105 or so in L1 and L2 and of the 60 (24 of those pre 1935) years you've spent in the Championship, your average finish is 12th. You've spent as many years in the last 2 decades in L1 and L2 as you have in the Championship/PL.

Your average finish in the football pyramid is 43rd during your history in the football league. So borderline L1/Championship. Certainly not upper championship.
Now maybe my maths isn't so good but I believe 60 is a bigger number than 40?

The 80s/90s were the low point for us in the bottom division but look back a bit further and we used to be a reasonably big club in terms of the financial clout at the club. That distorts the average somewhat.

Screen Shot 2020-09-17 at 9.03.26 pm.png


Up until 1981 we hadn't even been in League 2 before, and had only really had dips into League 1 for a season or two.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
Didn’t we established this like 2 years ago? SM thinks Leeds is Hulls biggest rival. Leeds fans do not.
I'm the only Hull fan in the world am I? News to me. I've never contended that we're Leeds' biggest rival, have an actual read of my posts instead of just seeing read and posting rubbish as you always do.
 

Pykie

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 17, 2006
19,518
41,071
Lord's
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Leeds United
10/11 is the blip I'm thinking of, apart from that until our most recent dip, we'd been ahead of you.





Now maybe my maths isn't so good but I believe 60 is a bigger number than 40?

The 80s/90s were the low point for us in the bottom division but look back a bit further and we used to be a reasonably big club in terms of the financial clout at the club. That distorts the average somewhat.
Yes, your maths clearly aren't good....

One would assume if for 60 years you are borderline your criteria, then the other 40 years you are well below that criteria, it would drag you well below it on average.....

Hull has finished in the top half of the championship or better 17 times in the 74 years since WW2. Maybe that will illustrate it better for you.


As for the 80's and 90's being your low point. You have played in L1 or L2 for 1/3 of this century, so it doesn't necessarily stop there.

Do you really know your own history?
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
Yes, your maths clearly aren't good....

One would assume if for 60 years you are borderline your criteria, then the other 40 years you are well below that criteria, it would drag you well below it on average.....

Hull has finished in the top half of the championship or better 17 times in the 74 years since WW2. Maybe that will illustrate it better for you.


As for the 80's and 90's being your low point. You have played in L1 or L2 for 1/3 of this century, so it doesn't necessarily stop there.

Do you really know your own history?
You're suggesting 40 is equal to 60 in saying that we have spent as much time in the lower leagues as in the higher leagues. That is quite clearly not the case.

What are you talking about? We've played in League 2 for four years and League 1 for two years this century, that's not 1/3rd.
 

Pykie

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 17, 2006
19,518
41,071
Lord's
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Leeds United
You're suggesting 40 is equal to 60 in saying that we have spent as much time in the lower leagues as in the higher leagues. That is quite clearly not the case.

What are you talking about? We've played in League 2 for three years and League 1 for two years this century, that's not 1/3rd.
Lol, what are you an about? You said you were on average a upper championship team historically. You aren't even close to that historically. Like I said, since WW2, you're average position in the pyramid is 46th. Which is L1.


You are right and wrong.

Not quite 1/3, it's actually 28%.

You have played in L2 in 4 years (00/01, 01/02, 02/03, 03/04) and L1 in 2 (04/05, 20/21) in the 21 seasons since 2000.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
Lol, what are you an about? You said you were on average a upper championship team historically. You aren't even close to that historically. Like I said, since WW2, you're average position in the pyramid is 46th. Which is L1.


You are right and wrong.

Not quite 1/3, it's actually 28%.

You have played in L2 in 4 years (00/01, 01/02, 02/03, 03/04) and L1 in 2 (04/05, 20/21) in the 21 seasons since 2000.
I should have probably framed it as "bigger" Championship club as we've perennially underachieved, but back in the 50s and then 70s we splashed the cash quite a bit in the Championship. The lack of even a single top division season really hurt any staying power for the club though, I'll grant you that. But being a one-club City with a huge supporter base at Boothferry Park in our heyday I don't think you could really consider us a smaller Championship/League One club at any point. it's only really been since the 90s (as I alluded to) that we really dropped away to a significant point.

I guess with this season only having just begun I just view those first five years as being spent in the lower leagues with this year hopefully just a blip. So more like a quarter all at the start.
 

joop

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 18, 2011
13,445
24,160
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Leeds United
I'm the only Hull fan in the world am I? News to me. I've never contended that we're Leeds' biggest rival, have an actual read of my posts instead of just seeing read and posting rubbish as you always do.
Where did I say you were the only Hull supporter in the world? For someone who always bags other people for being 'triggered' you sure do get triggered easily.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
Where did I say you were the only Hull supporter in the world? For someone who always bags other people for being 'triggered' you sure do get triggered easily.
"SM thinks..."

Why not say "Hull fans think.." since that's the point I was making? Come on man.
 

joop

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 18, 2011
13,445
24,160
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Leeds United
"SM thinks..."

Why not say "Hull fans think.." since that's the point I was making? Come on man.
Sorry, when you are the only person on this forum who is a hull supporter that has bought up this topic I thought it was appropriate to mention thats what you think instead of jumping to the conclusion that you are the BF spokesperson for every single Hull supporter in the world. My bad.
 

SM

Bigfooty Legend
Aug 3, 2008
98,515
59,796
North Shore
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Hull City, Adelaide United, EH
Sorry, when you are the only person on this forum who is a hull supporter that has bought up this topic I thought it was appropriate to mention thats what you think instead of jumping to the conclusion that you are the BF spokesperson for every single Hull supporter in the world. My bad.
Eh? But that's exactly what you're doing by saying I think Leeds is our biggest rival but Leeds fans don't? You're attributing my views as if I'm the only Hull supporter who thinks that and speak on behalf of them. Take a second and think it through.

I've maintained throughout this discussion that Leeds have plenty of rivals but Leeds is our biggest rival. Pykie for some reason tried to make off as if it was some 'beaten up BF rivalry' and no other Hull fans care about Leeds they actually only care about Hull FC which was utter rubbish.
 

joop

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 18, 2011
13,445
24,160
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Leeds United
Eh? But that's exactly what you're doing by saying I think Leeds is our biggest rival but Leeds fans don't? You're attributing my views as if I'm the only Hull supporter who thinks that and speak on behalf of them. Take a second and think it through.

I've maintained throughout this discussion that Leeds have plenty of rivals but Leeds is our biggest rival. Pykie for some reason tried to make off as if it was some 'beaten up BF rivalry' and no other Hull fans care about Leeds they actually only care about Hull FC which was utter rubbish.
ok you are right.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Top Bottom