Opinion Why the crazy talk?

[Helfarch]

Let me sort out the confusion, because there seems to be some over our trade period.

From my personal opinion on the matter, to what I've observed, those who aren't happy with our trading this period aren't unhappy with who we brought in and who we lost, they're/we're unhappy with what we're paying and what we got for all those trades.

There's a HUGE difference between the two. '

I'm FINE with who we brought in and outside Nathan Brown I'm MORE than fine with who we let go. My issue is, we got f**king NOTHING, literally nothing for almost everyone we lost and gave up a bit and have offered seemingly expensive contracts for those we're bringing in.

Problem being the players that left weren't worth anything. If we matched Brown's contract he likely would have been traded for another nothing pick so what would be the point? Witts is a liability as soon as the ball comes off the ruck's hands and was in the VFL. Frost is a stopper only that can't pick up the ball most of the time. Collingwood needed to shed Cloke's final year of his contract.

Williams I don't really understand, there most be something in the background there.

 

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Witts. And yes, I know that's subject to opinion, but the club rates him highly, and Eade obviously rates him highly too given they already had 3 rucks on the books. We just have them their number 1 ruck for the next 5-6 years for peanuts.

And we overpaid for WHE. Those are the 2 I'm really annoyed about. The others I wasn't expecting much for anyway.

That's your opinion, mine slightly differs. Witts was traded for essentially points value of pick 37 and a discounted f/s rate of a live 31 pick. If that's a direct swap for Witts for rowdy Jnr, I'd take that personally.
WHE did have more interest, I do agree that I thought a future 2nd round would be required, until the Lids nomination. I was like others thinking that we may move able to get him cheaper, but there already may have been a heads of agreement already in place. We won't know. Hopefully he has a great pre season and forfills his potential next year. We maybe saying in 12 months time that that trade was the bargain of them all.

 

[Jasper84]

I agree with some of the points however for me the period is not just judge on the 2 weeks its the entire list management and development program we have.

Brown- People are happy we lost him because they say he cant kick. Who cares he gets 3 kicks a game anyway. IMO 2015 Brown was in the top handfull of full backs. 12 months later at the ripe old age of 27 we lose him for nothing and replace him with a 29 yo who could not get a game in a mid range side who is not even a real full back. What could we have done better to continue his development and keep him happy so he stayed at the club?

Marsh- It seems we will be paying a bloke a salary to sit out football for a year and then next year we lose him for nothing. I personally had him pegged as our next full back. What could the club have done differently to support him? It may not have changed anything but do the club do their very best to ensure he felt supported.

Williams- I thought he was our best defender last year. Some argued he should have been in the AA Squad. Kicking had improved. Rarely beaten 1 on 1 , great job on dangerous smalls. He has deficiencies but to go from this to pick 105 in 12 months is poor. Yep he has some off field issues. He is a party boy(so is libba but how is he travelling?) Could we have done more to manage him better?

WHE- We had bargaining power. GWS wanted deledio. They needed to get rid of WHE so they could afford him. Just about every player in his position(on the list for 4 or more years but not in best 22) has gone for next 2 nothing but we paid a 2nd rounder. Why could we not negotiate a better deal?

Wells- 3 years for a bloke who is 32 next year on 500k or more a year. I hope like hell this does not cost us a chance to land a big fish in the next couple of years due to cap space.

Mayne - see wells comments

I get the frost and cloke deals. They are not best 22 anymore and had no currency and I actually think we did ok for Witts but the others dont make alot of sense to me.


Most of all the reason I am frustrated is at the start of this year I was very optimistic about our next few years. 3 years ago the club was indicating they expecting a very quick turnaround. Pert quoted as saying he expected to be playing in GFs within 3 years. I reckon St Kilda and Melbourne who seemed miles behind us at the start of the year are going past us in a hurry and even the blues seem to be doing things better than we are at the moment.

For years Ive been positive and glass is half full but to steel a line from Tony cochrane I reckon the club has promised the world over the last few years and has delivered and Atlas.

Based on your assessment, I am really glad that Brown didn't go into Medicine! "Yeah, most of my patients die, but it's ok because I only treat a few of them!"

Regarding his development at the club: We are fortunate to be able to see what Nathan Brown would be like if he was developed at another club. His twin Mitch has been at West Coast for the same period and like their genetics, their footy is the exact same. Same limited abilities, same injuries, they even want to leave their clubs at the same time. The only difference is Nathan went to St Kilda as a free agent and Mitch may or may not get picked up at all.

 

[ant22]

Based on your assessment, I am really glad that Brown didn't go into Medicine! "Yeah, most of my patients die, but it's ok because I only treat a few of them!"

Regarding his development at the club: We are fortunate to be able to see what Nathan Brown would be like if he was developed at another club. His twin Mitch has been at West Coast for the same period and like their genetics, their footy is the exact same. Same limited abilities, same injuries, they even want to leave their clubs at the same time. The only difference is Nathan went to St Kilda as a free agent and Mitch may or may not get picked up at all.

I think you are selling Nathan Well short. He has had a much better career than his Brother. And as I said was very good in 2015. It was arguably his best season.

Terrible analogy by the way. The point I was making is it is not his job to get alot of the footy. Call me old fashioned but I think their is still a role for atleast 1 bloke in the backline who can take on and stop a big forward. With Frost leaving Brown was our only option to do this.

Who have we got that can play on the likes if Patton, Hawkins , Boyd Etc?

 

[Leviathan Pie]

The point of the trade period/draft is to IMPROVE your list, I fail to see really how we've done so to this point. We haven't regressed, we haven't progressed.

We've basically, IMO, taken one giant side-step when a lot of our competitors seemed to have significantly improved.

I don't see how we make the 8 next year, at all. I hope to hell that I'm wrong, but I just don't see it.

 

[Kabana]

I have started very few threads over a long period as a member of this site - an example being when I famously beat Dave the Man in welcoming the Postcard Bandit to the club - but I thought it was necessary to call for calm.

So many are lambasting the club for its performance over the free agency and trade periods, but I do not see how we could have done much better.

I'll go through the list.


DEPARTURES

1. Cloke:

He will be 30 before next season starts, was not part of our best 22 for most of this year and the club desperately wanted to get rid of him to clear salary cap space. Clubs knew this and only one was genuinely interested, so we did about as well as we could in the circumstances.

2. Williams:

I would have liked to have kept him, but he was out of contract and the club wanted to get rid of him. Other clubs knew this and we had no bargaining power.

We could have delisted him or assisted him to get to where he wanted to go. We did the professional thing.

3: Frost:

The player wanted out. He had no currency whatsoever and we arranged a trade which should net us two quality pick upgrades next year given that Brisbane are likely to finish bottom two (probably last). We did well.

4: Brown:

He wanted out and was uncontacted. There was nothing we could have done.

5. Witts:

This is the only one where I think we have done poorly, as young rucks generally retain their value. At the same time, he is a 24 year old former rookie who has never been best twenty two for any sustained period and who we wanted to move on. What bargaining power did we have?


ARRIVALS

1. Hoskin-Elliott:

Hugely talented player who we've wanted for a while. I concede that we paid overs, but not by much considering his potential. He will be a very good player for us for a long time.

2. Dunn:

Given that Brown and Frost decided to jump ship, we needed an experienced key position player who could play a role immediately.

Dunn is very good one on one, will improve our defensive fifty exits immeasurably considering his increased production and quality foot skills relative to Brown, Frost and Marsh and we got him for virtually nothing. One of the biggest problems with our defence is that teams know they can zone off our full backs then press up when we get possession, because they know the player is likely to make a mistake. This won't happen with Dunn and I think we did well to get him at such short notice considering the cards we were dealt.

3. Wells:

Is a gun and will be top five at our club immediately. He fills two needs with his pace and elite skills and will also provide much needed experience and leadership.

North Melbourne were top of the ladder after eleven rounds this year and he was their best player. To get him without having to trade anything out is a real coup.

4. Mayne:

He is slightly underwhelming but again, he fills a need with the forward pressure he gives. We have nobody who can play that role other than Blair whose tackles never stick.

He will improve us and didn't cost us a trade, so I am happy we got him in.

In light of the above, I would like to ask if anyone genuinely thinks we could have done much better in the circumstances? Our draft position was always going to be compromised after our excellent trading last year but we still managed to hold onto our top pick. For now, we also still have Marsh.

Thoughts?

BTC

I've never been a Wells fan, but acknowledge that he could be good for us - ala Varcoe lifting once he joined the Pies. Hate the contract length given his age though

 

[NoobPie]

I agree with some of the points however for me the period is not just judge on the 2 weeks its the entire list management and development program we have.

Brown- People are happy we lost him because they say he cant kick. Who cares he gets 3 kicks a game anyway. IMO 2015 Brown was in the top handfull of full backs. 12 months later at the ripe old age of 27 we lose him for nothing and replace him with a 29 yo who could not get a game in a mid range side who is not even a real full back. What could we have done better to continue his development and keep him happy so he stayed at the club?

We lost him for nothing because he was FA FFS! Like we got Mayne and Wells for nothing

And the fact he get's 3 kicks a game is irrelevant. When we have the ball in hand he is a liability. We can't switch through him, he is a highly risky escape options and the opposition can play off without any threat he could damage them.

If keefe or Dunne take (the former being the greater unknown), then we are substantially improved on the season just passed

 

[Jasper84]

I think you are selling Nathan Well short. He has had a much better career than his Brother. And as I said was very good in 2015. It was arguably his best season.

Terrible analogy by the way. The point I was making is it is not his job to get alot of the footy. Call me old fashioned but I think their is still a role for atleast 1 bloke in the backline who can take on and stop a big forward. With Frost leaving Brown was our only option to do this.

Who have we got that can play on the likes if Patton, Hawkins , Boyd Etc?

You're old fashioned. The way Brown plays, the best case scenario whenever he is near the ball is that we get a 50/50 contest. Otherwise he hands the ball back to the opposition. The modern game doesn't afford him to just be a stopper anymore. Whether he likes it or not, play will be channelled through him several times a game as part of rebound footy and you can no longer carry a guy who is more than likely to turn it over because he can't kick.

Yeah, he can play on the big forwards. The problem is he can't play off them.

 

[Ocram69]

He was AA in 2013. But don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

That was 3 seasons ago, he has gone downhill quicker than Eddie the Eagle ever since. But don't let that fact get in the way of your Cloke's still a champion story.

 

[ant22]

You're old fashioned. The way Brown plays, the best case scenario whenever he is near the ball is that we get a 50/50 contest. Otherwise he hands the ball back to the opposition. The modern game doesn't afford him to just be a stopper anymore. Whether he likes it or not, play will be channelled through him several times a game as part of rebound footy and you can no longer carry a guy who is more than likely to turn it over because he can't kick.

Yeah, he can play on the big forwards. The problem is he can't play off them.

He had 84% for effective disposals this year. clearly a myth that he turns it over. Brown is another case of people looking at what he cant do rather than look at what he can do and that is shut down bit forwards. We have no one on our list who can do this.

 

[ant22]

We lost him for nothing because he was FA FFS! Like we got Mayne and Wells for nothing

And the fact he get's 3 kicks a game is irrelevant. When we have the ball in hand he is a liability. We can't switch through him, he is a highly risky escape options and the opposition can play off without any threat he could damage them.

If keefe or Dunne take (the former being the greater unknown), then we are substantially improved on the season just passed

Clearly you did not read my post. I know he was a free agent. You do realise Free agents have the choice to stay at their existing clubs? and you do realise as a restricted free agent we have the chance to match. Read again and you might get it. In its full context, not just one extract about 1 player.

He went at 84% for disposal efficiency FFS while he does not hurt the opposition this was never his job. It was to stop the oppositions best tall forward and I think he had done that pretty well in the past. Whos going to do that now. Lynden Dunn? Good luck with that.

 

[Jasper84]

He had 84% for effective disposals this year. clearly a myth that he turns it over. Brown is another case of people looking at what he cant do rather than look at what he can do and that is shut down bit forwards. We have no one on our list who can do this.

A handball to a stationary player in a worse position counts as an effective disposal as does any kick over 50 metres that doesn't go out on the full.

 

[ant22]

A handball to a stationary player in a worse position counts as an effective disposal as does any kick over 50 metres that doesn't go out on the full.

I get that Jasper but I don't think its ever been as bad as people think, and the stats back this. I think what he provides the side outweighs the negatives and I don't believe in the space of 12 months the need for a shut down defender has gone out the window especially when there are a number of very big forwards who are coming through the ranks. Thats just my opinion. Clearly we disagree. Time will tell if we miss him or not.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

We have no backline and our forwards don't kick goals. We will be bottom 4 next year. That's why people are a tad annoyed.

J
We won't be bottom 4
Sorry Be better than that.

 

[jimmy35]

We're not GWS, we can't shop off the top shelf all the time so sometimes we've got to go to the bargain bin.
I'm happy enough with what we've got over the past couple of trade periods.

 

[Countrypie]

I get that Jasper but I don't think its ever been as bad as people think, and the stats back this. I think what he provides the side outweighs the negatives and I don't believe in the space of 12 months the need for a shut down defender has gone out the window especially when there are a number of very big forwards who are coming through the ranks. Thats just my opinion. Clearly we disagree. Time will tell if we miss him or not.

This was the moment for me. How to give a team momentum by not knowing your limitations.

 

[frizzle]

You're old fashioned. The way Brown plays, the best case scenario whenever he is near the ball is that we get a 50/50 contest. Otherwise he hands the ball back to the opposition. The modern game doesn't afford him to just be a stopper anymore. Whether he likes it or not, play will be channelled through him several times a game as part of rebound footy and you can no longer carry a guy who is more than likely to turn it over because he can't kick.

Yeah, he can play on the big forwards. The problem is he can't play off them.

Great post. Almost every week the opposition forwards sat off Brown & let us kick backwards to him. They knew he was a real good chance to turn it over.
That isn't going to change any time soon. I hope our coaches work out the same thing when we play them & let him have the ball deep in his own half.

 

[ThePhantom777]

We're not GWS, we can't shop off the top shelf all the time so sometimes we've got to go to the bargain bin.
I'm happy enough with what we've got over the past couple of trade periods.

Agree. I mean they are topping up with Deledio who was prob a top 5 player at the Tigers. If they play their cards right GWS can keep the cycle up for years.

 

[frizzle]

J
We won't be bottom 4
Sorry Be better than that.

He is entitled to his opinion. I don't think he will be that far off with his estimate. I certainly don't think we will improve our position on 2016.
Just my opinion. I think Wells makes us a little better in the midfield than last year. I don't think our back line or forward line will be any better unless we can get Elliott fit & firing. Mayne may help us lock the ball in but don't see him as a big scorer.
I think Tigers will be better with Prestia & Caddy in their midfield. Saints will be better with Carlisle & Steele. Demons will be better with Lewis & Hibberd coming in. Blues get Marchbank & Pickett (jury out on if that improves them next year. may take time.) Lions will improve with a better coach. Wont be enough to get them off the bottom though. Roos will fall & we may jump them but not sure. Bombers will improve a bucket load with many fine players coming back. It is going to be very tough to even hold our position next year let alone improve it. The competition has not stood still & Bucks is going to have his work cut out getting us into finals. I was more optimistic last year than this year. 2017 will be a tough one for us I think.

 

[Markfs]

I don't share the same distaste for Dunn as a lot of others, my wife is a demon supporter so I've seen alot of him over the years, he is a solid 1 on 1 defender who rarely gets caught out man watching, he reads the play really well he intercept marks and helps out others he plays alot like reidy, he has a penetrating kick like Reid, low and fast, not super quick but would have brown covered easily. His form in VFL this year was easily good enough to warrant afl games but dee's insisted on getting games into youth. I can see him easily in the 22 ahead of Keefe at least until Keefe can prove he can play at the level, however he is versatile enough he could play along side Keefe and Reid anyway.

you should post more often

 

[TW Sherrin]

I get that Jasper but I don't think its ever been as bad as people think, and the stats back this. I think what he provides the side outweighs the negatives and I don't believe in the space of 12 months the need for a shut down defender has gone out the window especially when there are a number of very big forwards who are coming through the ranks. Thats just my opinion. Clearly we disagree. Time will tell if we miss him or not.

when brown gets the ball the entire stadium knows where it is going. he often fains a look short or sideways but always goes back and kicks it long....and high. he has the precision a 5yo with a crayon trying to draw mona lisa.

imo his papers got stamped when he played selfish footy on josh kennedy against wce.

 

[TW Sherrin]

A handball to a stationary player in a worse position counts as an effective disposal as does any kick over 50 metres that doesn't go out on the full.

staggered brown doesn't go at 100%...every kick goes 50m.

 

[ZEV]

This was the moment for me. How to give a team momentum by not knowing your limitations.

Which part?

Actually i remember this, 15:15 in. and people are upset about losing these two

 

[TW Sherrin]

Agree. I mean they are topping up with Deledio who was prob a top 5 player at the Tigers. If they play their cards right GWS can keep the cycle up for years.

the cycle ends when they start loosing rfa's. rfa/fa comp will be gone by then.

 

[surfer1]

The first four you listed all, as you said, wanted out. That is one problem I have with these trades.

The other problem is that we have to clear the decks of so many poorly skilled players. Why have so many ordinary kicks of a football been recruited in the first place? And why do we continue to heap praise on those who recruited them?

Witts was a steal given his height, youth and the development we have put into him. If Grundy goes down, we have no back-up other than Cox.

WHE looks exciting from the highlights package, but obviously has not been able to sustain the quality displayed in these brief passages of play.

Wells will fill a need if he stays injury free. He will be fun to watch after some of the scrubbers we've been forced to endure. In this respect, Marley Williams is no loss.

Mayne can do no worse than many of the others who play peripheral roles in our forward line.

Dunn at 30 fails to truly excite me, but given our KPP losses through players 'wanting out', he serves a purpose.

I will be happy if this marks the beginning of a Hawthorn like recruiting policy -' if you can't kick, we don't want you'.

Agree with pretty much all you said only thing is about Witts. Why would he stay if his likelihood was VFL.