Why was'nt Port Melbourne in the original VFL, and not the VFA?

[mianfei]

St Kilda is the interesting one - would they have been included in the 1908 or 1925 expansions? Or would they be what Port Melbourne is now?

Most likely not, unless the St. Kilda City Council was really demanding and refused to take no for an answer, or other options were unavailable to the league. In 1908, I could not see the League interested in expansions to the south instead of the the east as with Richmond. North Melbourne would have been even less probable with Port in the League, and that makes me on second thought think St. Kilda would have tried, but Port and South would have certainly united to stop such a bid.

In 1925 when Footscray were desiring admission, as with both Port and South in the League, Footscray would have had no hope of gaining Port’s putative metropolitan zone. However, South’s would have likely covered all of the City of St. Kilda, and so St. Kilda would have been equally unacceptable to them. We might have seen a one-club expansion to the southeast (Hawthorn or Prahran or even Brighton) instead of the actual three-club expansion for this reason but the fact that those were three of the poorest VFA clubs means even such a one-club expansion would have created major problems in the long term.

As for St. Kilda remaining in the VFA, I am unsure as to how they would have done after it split from the VFL. The Saints would have been much less likely to get the business and industrial patronage needed to be even a VFA power than Footscray, North, Port or even Brunswick, for reasons I have constantly discussed for many years. They would have certainly found it easier with so much competition removed, so there is the possibility St. Kilda would have been far more successful in the Association than they were in the League, but not so successful as Port became I feel.

 

[Power Raid]

I’m glad they didn’t get in

Swans stole our song
Pies stole our colours and Magpie
And Port Melboume would have stolen our name

 

[Scanlens Man]

Essendon won only 25 of 90 games between 1933 and 1937 (for comparison Hawthorn won 24), and only 97 plus 2 draws out of 234 between 1927 and 1939

Do you think this lack of success could be linked to Dick Reynolds winning 3 Brownlow medals during the era (1934, 1937, 1938)?

Pre-modern era Brownlows were much easier to win if you were the only good player in a woeful side - Bobby Skilton another example, much as I loved him as a kid growing up

 

[Michael Riley]

Here is my view in detail

A New Association – Formation of the VFL 1896-1897 | Boyles Football Photos

www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au

I have been very interested by the views in this thread. This is a fascinating topic.

I now believe it was all about money. VFA reform either meant the rich clubs subsidised the poor (as happens now), or the rich split away. The internal VFA voting was factioned between rich and poor and the rich were worried that they could not control the vote. Port were never in, because they were in the wrong faction. I think my article walks through the key moments.

 

[mianfei]

I now believe it was all about money. VFA reform either meant the rich clubs subsidised the poor (as happens now), or the rich split away. The internal VFA voting was factioned between rich and poor and the rich were worried that they could not control the vote. Port were never in, because they were in the wrong faction. I think my article walks through the key moments.

If that were the case, the VFL was an abject failure, especially after the 1925 expansion.

The three poorest clubs before the growth of the “soccer belt” – Hawthorn, St. Kilda and North Melbourne – were so badly off that had there been no aid from the League they would have disappeared (or been replaced) as early as 1935. Although the earliest aid to help North Melbourne and to a lesser extent the other two came via local councils, after World War II the VFL massively subsidised the Hawks and the Saints to make them less uncompetitive on the field. Between 1946 and 1953 Hawthorn’s record in the three grades was 79—332—5 and St. Kilda’s from 1946 to 1955 was 113—399—11.

Yet, with no finals appearances in any grade, nor any hope of gaining wealthy supporters to make them competitive, the Hawks and Saints received an equal share of the finals money paid for by fans of “big five” clubs. That is certainly rich clubs subsidising the poor for you!

 

[Les Malone]

Didn't Ned Kelly play for Port Melbourne, maybe it was Williamstown.

Too rough a club probably.

 

[queensberryrules]

Didn't Ned Kelly play for Port Melbourne, maybe it was Williamstown.

Too rough a club probably.

Wow. That whole story is very interesting. It looks like Ned was in a floating prison off Willy for 6 months. He was daily on land constructing water breaks and other infra structure. The idea was that he could have trained and played at Willy during on shore duties, though there seems to be no real evidence and many at Willy footy club are skeptical.

A story I would like to be true, but alas.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Les Malone]

Wow. That whole story is very interesting. It looks like Ned was in a floating prison off Willy for 6 months. He was daily on land constructing water breaks and other infra structure. The idea was that he could have trained and played at Willy during on shore duties, though there seems to be no real evidence and many at Willy footy club are skeptical.

A story I would like to be true, but alas.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Apparently he was a gun CHB, run with it!

 

[Michael Riley]

If that were the case, the VFL was an abject failure, especially after the 1925 expansion.

My comments focus only on the 1896-97 breakaway. I believe my article shows substantial contemporary evidence that the split was for economic reasons and tat StKilda was selected because they were the right people and not for football reasons.

By 1946-1950 the VFA was no longer a direct competitor with the VFL, so decisions at that time, 50 years after 1897 would be made for different reasons than were made in 1897. I am not sure how club performance in these later years relates to my point.

You have made some interesting points in other posts for why certain clubs were noncompetitive, I think they have a lot of merit, but I have not yet seen contemporary evidence that would point to a different conclusion.

Cheers

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Most likely not, unless the St. Kilda City Council was really demanding and refused to take no for an answer, or other options were unavailable to the league. In 1908, I could not see the League interested in expansions to the south instead of the the east as with Richmond. North Melbourne would have been even less probable with Port in the League, and that makes me on second thought think St. Kilda would have tried, but Port and South would have certainly united to stop such a bid.

In 1925 when Footscray were desiring admission, as with both Port and South in the League, Footscray would have had no hope of gaining Port’s putative metropolitan zone. However, South’s would have likely covered all of the City of St. Kilda, and so St. Kilda would have been equally unacceptable to them. We might have seen a one-club expansion to the southeast (Hawthorn or Prahran or even Brighton) instead of the actual three-club expansion for this reason but the fact that those were three of the poorest VFA clubs means even such a one-club expansion would have created major problems in the long term.

As for St. Kilda remaining in the VFA, I am unsure as to how they would have done after it split from the VFL. The Saints would have been much less likely to get the business and industrial patronage needed to be even a VFA power than Footscray, North, Port or even Brunswick, for reasons I have constantly discussed for many years. They would have certainly found it easier with so much competition removed, so there is the possibility St. Kilda would have been far more successful in the Association than they were in the League, but not so successful as Port became I feel.

Re. your thesis, while St Kilda suffered a spectacular fall from grace as a suburb and huge demographic changes over the history of the VFL/AFL, even today it surprises me how white-Anglo it has remained.

It's like there was a 'Middle Park Line' north of which there was the huge influx of Southern European communities moving into the workers cottages in port/Sth Melb.