Why were england so s***?

[Barlos Crathwaite]

I don’t know what your personal circumstances are but as the father of four aboriginal children I doubt that you do. But it’s not a competition
YOU started a discussion criticising me for daring to talk about England’s 1990s shortcomings.

I merely asked why england are so off limits and what these so called rules are that no one seems to have a copy of that stop us from criticising a team 25 years ago because they happen to be playing ok right now

They're not off limits. Everything here is fair game. Just cop it when what you say comes back. That's all I've ever argued. I'd love to see the windies dominate and grind England into the ground.

 

[Barlos Crathwaite]

I don’t know what your personal circumstances are but as the father of four aboriginal children I doubt that you do. But it’s not a competition
YOU started a discussion criticising me for daring to talk about England’s 1990s shortcomings.

I merely asked why england are so off limits and what these so called rules are that no one seems to have a copy of that stop us from criticising a team 25 years ago because they happen to be playing ok right now

I've got an Indian grandfather so you have no right whatsoever to claim the high ground. I'm white but not white if you know what I mean.

 

[Gough]

Off topic guys, back to the cricket please.

 

[PhatBoy]

They're not off limits. Everything here is fair game. Just cop it when what you say comes back. That's all I've ever argued. I'd love to see the windies dominate and grind England into the ground.

This is what I don’t get. I never once said ‘oh here’s all the excuses as to why we didn’t deserve to lose.’ We were terrible on the two most important days of the series. Criticise us all you want.

just F*** off with the ‘this is what sort of person you are and what sort of character you are because you support a different team to me’ garbage

 

[Barlos Crathwaite]

Off topic guys, back to the cricket please.

Gough can you provide some perspective on why England were so bad pre central contracts and the impact those contracts have had going forward?

 

[PhatBoy]

I've got an Indian grandfather so you have no right whatsoever to claim the high ground. I'm white but not white if you know what I mean.

Sigh.
again. I’m not claiming anything. Just pointing out that even trying to say something like ‘i hate racism more than you do’ is silly.
and, ironically, is a form of claiming moral high ground.

 

[Barlos Crathwaite]

This is what I don’t get. I never once said ‘oh here’s all the excuses as to why we didn’t deserve to lose.’ We were terrible on the two most important days of the series. Criticise us all you want.

just F*** off with the ‘this is what sort of person you are and what sort of character you are because you support a different team to me’ garbage

That's just your perspective mate. I can't answer to what I haven't done. Your upset because I called out your team

 

[Barlos Crathwaite]

Sigh.
again. I’m not claiming anything. Just pointing out that even trying to say something like ‘i hate racism more than you do’ is silly.
and, ironically, is a form of claiming moral high ground.

You knew what you were doing..... You persisted with the " why can you criticise this team but not this team malarkey". Don't stir the pot and then flip out when the lines get blurred. Anyway let's get back on topic cos Gough is a straight up Gangsta and he's going to shut this down asap

 

[PhatBoy]

That's just your perspective mate. I can't answer to what I haven't done. Your upset because I called out your team

lollll mate they’ve been losing since about 3 years after I started following them. Trust me, someone ‘calling out’ my team doesn’t bother me.
Your first or second post called me a flog mate. Because of a game of cricket.
if you don’t like someone defending them self, don’t attack them. It’s pretty simple.

 

[PhatBoy]

You knew what you were doing..... You persisted with the " why can you criticise this team but not this team malarkey". Don't stir the pot and then flip out when the lines get blurred. Anyway let's get back on topic cos Gough is a straight up Gangsta and he's going to shut this down asap

I’d be happy for him to. I’m losing brain cells.

again, no suggestion of race. A simple question of why it’s wrong to have a normal cricket discussion about the failings of a team 25 years ago.

 

[Barlos Crathwaite]

I’d be happy for him to. I’m losing brain cells.

again, no suggestion of race. A simple question of why it’s wrong to have a normal cricket discussion about the failings of a team 25 years ago.

I was just steering clear of a possible direction I wasn't comfortable with. Upshot is were both non racist so that's something. Anyway I'm fatigued now. I'm calling it a draw. Take it up with Marais if you want to review. Crath out

 

[The Passenger]

Taking 90's performances only.

The batting had two blokes average in excess of 42 - Gooch and Gower with the latter only playing 11 tests in the 90's. Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe, Hick, Hussain, Ramprakash as a top six is more or less on par with Rogers, Burns, Khawaja, Marsh, Head, Handscomb. And unlike the modern day Australian batsmen who have had Clarke then Smith to prop up a middle of the road batting line up (plus Warner, who for all his troubles outside of Australia is still better than any of the 12 I've mentioned), the English got two greats year from Gooch in 1990 and 1991 and that was really about it.

The quick bowling fared slightly better - Fraser, Headley, Gough, Caddick and DeFreitas all averaged sub 30, and Mullally and Cork not far off that mark. On paper that looks good but when when you realise not one of those 7 played more than half of England's tests in the 90's (Fraser 43 out of 107 tests the most) you realise there must have been some issues at the selection table. Devon Malcolm was outrageously inconsistent despite being an obvious match winner on his day.

They never had a consistent spinner. Tufnell was their best but his average was closer to 40 than 30.

With more consistent selection of their quicks and getting more out of Malcolm they could have remained somewhat competitive but their batting was so weak that merely being competitive with the top teams was the very top limit of that squads capabilities (and that's if they did pretty much everything right - which they clearly didn't).

 

[PhatBoy]

Taking 90's performances only.

The batting had two blokes average in excess of 42 - Gooch and Gower with the latter only playing 11 tests in the 90's. Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe, Hick, Hussain, Ramprakash as a top six is more or less on par with Rogers, Burns, Khawaja, Marsh, Head, Handscomb. And unlike the modern day Australian batsmen who have had Clarke then Smith to prop up a middle of the road batting line up (plus Warner, who for all his troubles outside of Australia is still better than any of the 12 I've mentioned), the English got two greats year from Gooch in 1990 and 1991 and that was really about it.

The quick bowling fared slightly better - Fraser, Headley, Gough, Caddick and DeFreitas all averaged sub 30, and Mullally and Cork not far off that mark. On paper that looks good but when when you realise not one of those 7 played more than half of England's tests in the 90's (Fraser 43 out of 107 tests the most) you realise there must have been some issues at the selection table. Devon Malcolm was outrageously inconsistent despite being an obvious match winner on his day.

They never had a consistent spinner. Tufnell was their best but his average was closer to 40 than 30.

With more consistent selection of their quicks and getting more out of Malcolm they could have remained somewhat competitive but their batting was so weak that merely being competitive with the top teams was the very top limit of that squads capabilities (and that's if they did pretty much everything right - which they clearly didn't).

3.

Smith averaged 42.7 In the 90s

 

[010203]

Instead of hypothesising and analysing, let's just take a look at footage of England being s**t in the 1990's.

 

[Leeda]

Geez rumpling your own bed sheets dude.. or d... no that isn't nice at all...

the smart move is to say nothing else from now on in..

 

[Gough]

Instead of hypothesising and analysing, let's just take a look at footage of England being sh*t in the 1990's.

I watched that spell in a youth hostel in Zimbabwe with a bunch of Scots who knew f*** all about cricket but knew they like watching England lose.

 

[The Passenger]

I watched that spell in a youth hostel in Zimbabwe with a bunch of Scots who knew f*** all about cricket but knew they like watching England lose.

Ian Salisbury batting #7 in that match tells you all you need to know about English cricket at the time. Amazing they persisted with him for 15 tests with a bowling average of 75. He actually played a season or two in Sydney first grade around the turn of the century and was pretty dominant but it's a long way from there to handling the might of the Windies in Port of Spain.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ian Salisbury batting #7 in that match tells you all you need to know about English cricket at the time. Amazing they persisted with him for 15 tests with a bowling average of 75. He actually played a season or two in Sydney first grade around the turn of the century and was pretty dominant but it's a long way from there to handling the might of the Windies in Port of Spain.

Tuffers and to an extent Peter Such aside, if you were an England spinher in the 90s, essentially your job was to bat 8 and maybe give the quicks a rest here and there

 

[Blue1980]

I think a lot of the English names mentioned weren’t all around at the same time.

Gooch was good up to 93, but guys like Gatting were cooked for the 90s, he only came back when the bans for the rebel tours were lifted but he was hardly making a test run in 89, let alone by 92.

Athers was pretty good until the late 90s, but even then was no superstar.

The chopping and changing, non centralised contracts wouldn’t of helped either.

The obsession with using bits and pieces cricketers to make up for shortfalls made them even worse as well. Prevented Stewart from just being a quality bat, and playing crappy all rounders who weren’t up to standard with bat or ball.

Guys like Caddick wouldn’t of played anywhere near the amount of tests he did if he were around 2010s as they have a lot better options than him generally nowadays.

 

[Van_Dyke]

To be fair Michael Clarke and Shane Warne are both very well respected tacticians and have said a lot of dumb sh*te during live commentary

Clarke's commentary really has been kinda disappointing, when he filled in at 9 when he was injured in 14/15 he was actually pretty good with giving insights

 

[PhatBoy]

I think a lot of the English names mentioned weren’t all around at the same time.

Gooch was good up to 93, but guys like Gatting were cooked for the 90s, he only came back when the bans for the rebel tours were lifted but he was hardly making a test run in 89, let alone by 92.

Athers was pretty good until the late 90s, but even then was no superstar.

The chopping and changing, non centralised contracts wouldn’t of helped either.

The obsession with using bits and pieces cricketers to make up for shortfalls made them even worse as well. Prevented Stewart from just being a quality bat, and playing crappy all rounders who weren’t up to standard with bat or ball.

Guys like Caddick wouldn’t of played anywhere near the amount of tests he did if he were around 2010s as they have a lot better options than him generally nowadays.

Fun fact - just illustrates how much of a late bloomer Gooch was - he is the only opener in the 1990s to average over 50 for the decade.
Saeed Anwar is next on the list

 

[BronCrow]

I always felt one of the problems in the 90's with English cricket was how bad their fielding was, especially their catching. Don't know how much better they would have been if this aspect improved, but someone earlier stated that they could never bowl sides out for under 350 on a regular basis, and I suspect this is one reason why. There was nobody in those sides that I can think of that was a great fielder.

 

[The Passenger]

I always felt one of the problems in the 90's with English cricket was how bad their fielding was, especially their catching. Don't know how much better they would have been if this aspect improved, but someone earlier stated that they could never bowl sides out for under 350 on a regular basis, and I suspect this is one reason why. There was nobody in those sides that I can think of that was a great fielder.

 

[The Passenger]

And who can forget, drop the catch then kick it away for runs.

I miss those days.

 

[BronCrow]

And who can forget, drop the catch then kick it away for runs.

I miss those days.

Who could forget this classic of course

Oh the irony that the 2 batsmen involved were the Waugh twins