Why were england so s***?

CazC30

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I am an Australian living in England and can say from talking to many sports fans here there has been a marked improvement in facilities, training and interest in sport. Being honest I would hate to say that was due in part to T20, as I'm not a fan. But investment and changes in structure have helped (I am told).... I have been informed that cricket here during the nineties was played like it was in the stone age, a very stuff old boys network kind of thing! I have also been lucky to watch old cricket form the nineties and yes, most of those listed were decent players but are we comparing that England side to the star studied team we had with Australia, this is the team that got me into cricket and let's be honest Cricket in Australia is a lifestyle and huge part of life to most. In England it's a minority sport and played by few?
 

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I am an Australian living in England and can say from talking to many sports fans here there has been a marked improvement in facilities, training and interest in sport. Being honest I would hate to say that was due in part to T20, as I'm not a fan. But investment and changes in structure have helped (I am told).... I have been informed that cricket here during the nineties was played like it was in the stone age, a very stuff old boys network kind of thing! I have also been lucky to watch old cricket form the nineties and yes, most of those listed were decent players but are we comparing that England side to the star studied team we had with Australia, this is the team that got me into cricket and let's be honest Cricket in Australia is a lifestyle and huge part of life to most. In England it's a minority sport and played by few?

I have always wondered about the cricket culture in England versus here in Australia. Is it a pompous, elitist, private school type and a game for the few thing in England where in Australia (when I was a lad anyway) it was always a game for everyone no matter where you sat on the social ladder.

As you say above it’s engrained in Aussie culture but is it in England’s?
 
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Re; England struggling Carberry has given Giles a spray (comes across as partly sour grapes, but I think he's probably correct in his take on England's problems):
Carberry remained with the England squad for the ODI series that followed the Ashes but could not crack into a side that slumped to a 4-1 loss.

At the time, England’s first-choice ODI openers were Alastair Cook and Ian Bell and the pair managed just two half-centuries between them and both finished the series with strike rates in the low 80s.

England was outgunned and outmuscled but still opted to keep the aggressive Carberry on the bench. As the series went on his frustrations grew.



“When it got to the last game I remember sitting down with Ashley Giles (England’s white-ball head coach at the time) and asking ‘Where am I going with this really? Am I close or not?’,” he said.

“I got runs in the warm-up game, didn’t get a sniff. And he basically just palmed me off. ‘Ah I don’t really know. I’m not sure of my own job.”



The left-hander did not think much of that response and believes it spoke to the self-serving nature of England’s coaches at the time.

“There was too much of that for me in the set-up at the time,” he said. “It was too much of coaches worrying about their own job rather than doing their job as a coach, which is to inform their players as to where they stand, and that’s all I wanted to know.

“I know you can’t guarantee me that I’m going to play, I just want to know am I close or am I not.”

He was subsequently left out of England’s Twenty20 side for the tour of the Caribbean despite averaging 55.77 with a strike rate of 142.61 in the country’s most recent T20 domestic tournament.

As luck would have it, Carberry crossed paths with the England team in the Caribbean anyway as a member of the Hamshpire side which was on tour.

“A completely new team had been picked to tour the Caribbean. I actually saw them out there because I was on pre-season tour with Hampshire, and I wasn’t in it,” he said.

“I found it amazing that I could not make a team at the time that wasn’t winning.”

“I saw Ashley Giles out there, he saw me, all the rest of the guys came over, gave me a hug, said ‘Sorry you didn’t get in, we couldn’t believe it’.

“Ashley Giles just scarpered. Didn’t bother coming over, Just left. So that stuck in my mind.”
 

CazC30

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I have always wondered about the cricket culture in England versus here in Australia. Is it a pompous, elitist, private school type and a game for the few thing in England where in Australia (when I was a lad anyway) it was always a game for everyone no matter where you sat on the social ladder.

As you say above it’s engrained in Aussie culture but is it in England’s?
From what people have told me yes, selection was done by old men too pissed or concious to form an agreeable decision.... They even made the women wear
culottes... Why? Gym slips or pants!!! But it was archaic and consigned to history with the rise in popularity of T20, some general rule changes and dividing the County Championship into two divisions. There were some stupid rules with concern to floodlight matches some where not allowed even though some attendance figures brought the grounds to capacity, a 50 over match I attended in 2014 was attended by over 14,000 people but local people complain about the lights.... Why live by a stadium? Surely one evening is not going to kill. England can be a hive of top class cricket but isn't assisted, Lords and the Oval could be filled with long hot summer evenings of cricket which would help the game immensely.... But it is still dogged by the old school tie and corn cob up the arse!

But changes have been made and are being made and it will change the power of currency is big.
 

A Pom

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From what people have told me yes, selection was done by old men too pissed or concious to form an agreeable decision.... They even made the women wear
culottes... Why? Gym slips or pants!!! But it was archaic and consigned to history with the rise in popularity of T20, some general rule changes and dividing the County Championship into two divisions. There were some stupid rules with concern to floodlight matches some where not allowed even though some attendance figures brought the grounds to capacity, a 50 over match I attended in 2014 was attended by over 14,000 people but local people complain about the lights.... Why live by a stadium? Surely one evening is not going to kill. England can be a hive of top class cricket but isn't assisted, Lords and the Oval could be filled with long hot summer evenings of cricket which would help the game immensely.... But it is still dogged by the old school tie and corn cob up the arse!

But changes have been made and are being made and it will change the power of currency is big.

The houses around most grounds unfortunately predate the floodlights leading to council restrictions on how often they can be used. Lords and The Oval are quite often filled for the T20 Blast in the evenings during the peak of summer.
 

swingdog

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I have always wondered about the cricket culture in England versus here in Australia. Is it a pompous, elitist, private school type and a game for the few thing in England where in Australia (when I was a lad anyway) it was always a game for everyone no matter where you sat on the social ladder.

As you say above it’s engrained in Aussie culture but is it in England’s?

It's still very strong at the village level and there's not much of the class system about it. I enjoyed playing there (10 years).

Less sledging (which makes Australian cricket so dull), some beautiful grounds (used to play against Duxford which involved getting buzzed by Spitfires while riding out through country lanes) and fantastic afternoon teas.

We were a town team (in Cambridge), which meant we also got a lot of Indian and Pakistani players as they were less comfortable playing for the villages where racism was more ingrained.
 

thejockey

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I have always wondered about the cricket culture in England versus here in Australia. Is it a pompous, elitist, private school type and a game for the few thing in England where in Australia (when I was a lad anyway) it was always a game for everyone no matter where you sat on the social ladder.

As you say above it’s engrained in Aussie culture but is it in England’s?
The club I played with there had a very high portion of private/ex private school members . And it seemed to be the trend throughout that league for the most part .
So was quite a culture shock for me .

The main things I found very noticeable
- standard was decent but games in general less competitive . Lots of 'draws' and teams not playing or chasing a win.
- lot of going through the motions in games
- far less sledging as someone said , when it happened you normally got an apology from the sledgers teamate.
- very rarely saw anyone disputting an umps decision
- would describe most of the tactics as reactionary
- would get congratulated for playing a 'nice' shot .
- nothing to do with the culture but the duke/reader balls swing a lot more ( even i could hoop them around )
- grounds in general were immaculate bit the fielding standard very average compared to here
- OS player was expected to single handidly win games . Probably fair enough if theyre covering airfare , living etc
 
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The club I played with there had a very high portion of private/ex private school members . And it seemed to be the trend throughout that league for the most part .
So was quite a culture shock for me .

The main things I found very noticeable
- standard was decent but games in general less competitive . Lots of 'draws' and teams not playing or chasing a win.
- lot of going through the motions in games
- far less sledging as someone said , when it happened you normally got an apology from the sledgers teamate.
- very rarely saw anyone disputting an umps decision
- would describe most of the tactics as reactionary
- would get congratulated for playing a 'nice' shot .
- nothing to do with the culture but the duke/reader balls swing a lot more ( even i could hoop them around )
- grounds in general were immaculate bit the fielding standard very average compared to here
- OS player was expected to single handidly win games . Probably fair enough if theyre covering airfare , living etc
This perfectly describes my experience also
 

revo333

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Less sledging (which makes Australian cricket so dull), some beautiful grounds (used to play against Duxford which involved getting buzzed by Spitfires while riding out through country lanes) and fantastic afternoon teas.

Do you mean cricket in Australia is dull if there isn't any sledging?
 
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No, the quality of the sledging. Don’t think there’s been a new sledge in 50 years.

The last one I heard onfield that made me laugh was directed at me by an opposition keeper who I had interviewed many times for the paper - the thing with that job is I was friends with virtually everyone because I had to interview them at some point in time.

I had always struggled against this side with the bat.
First ball I blocked off the front foot - “* this bloke’s improved since last time.’
 

CazC30

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The last one I heard onfield that made me laugh was directed at me by an opposition keeper who I had interviewed many times for the paper - the thing with that job is I was friends with virtually everyone because I had to interview them at some point in time.

I had always struggled against this side with the bat.
First ball I blocked off the front foot - “fu** this bloke’s improved since last time.’
Sledging should be more about mind games than abuse, hearing the keeper chirping away to the batsman waiting for the guy to make a mistake is priceless but listening to abuse is not in the spirit of the game, who was it who said, 'how's my wife and your kids'... ' the wifes fine but the kids are *ed' something like that. I have a book of cricket quits about this and it's bloody funny.
 

swingdog

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The last one I heard onfield that made me laugh was directed at me by an opposition keeper who I had interviewed many times for the paper - the thing with that job is I was friends with virtually everyone because I had to interview them at some point in time.

I had always struggled against this side with the bat.
First ball I blocked off the front foot - “fu** this bloke’s improved since last time.’

Pay that.
 
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Nasser Hussein.

Bloke lead England, yet his key idea for Mark Wood - who is keeping it tight, making runs hard to get whilst Archer attacks from the other end - is for him to go around 'to expose the gloves to the slips.'

Never mind a right handed bowler bowling around to a right hander removes the possibility of LBW to almost all deliveries, it also immediately makes bowled harder to get, and exposes your plans completely to your opposition.

Look, I get that there's a lot of silence to fill during a test broadcast, but this was genuinely an exceptionally dumb thing to say. This bloke used to lead the team he's watching. I'm all for trying things and using variety to get wickets, but some ideas are just bad.
 
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Nasser Hussein.

Bloke lead England, yet his key idea for Mark Wood - who is keeping it tight, making runs hard to get whilst Archer attacks from the other end - is for him to go around 'to expose the gloves to the slips.'

Never mind a right handed bowler bowling around to a right hander removes the possibility of LBW to almost all deliveries, it also immediately makes bowled harder to get, and exposes your plans completely to your opposition.

Look, I get that there's a lot of silence to fill during a test broadcast, but this was genuinely an exceptionally dumb thing to say. This bloke used to lead the team he's watching. I'm all for trying things and using variety to get wickets, but some ideas are just bad.

I see your point but on the flip side there is a bloke from NZ who has made a test career out of bowling to a plan that a foetus could decipher that also takes the stumps out of the equation
 
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I see your point but on the flip side there is a bloke from NZ who has made a test career out of bowling to a plan that a foetus could decipher that also takes the stumps out of the equation
Said bloke from NZ has a very well established plan, sets his field in order to both allow and deny certain aspects of the pull and hook, and is very, very good at short ball variation; not the big kinds of variation like just a slower ball bouncer, but subtle and minute changes of pace and length and release point to change the bounce/skid mix and to target different parts of the ground with the same shot. Wagner's made a career of doing it, in short, because he's very good at it and his tactical setup encourages that kind of innovation.

Nasser didn't want him to bowl short to a bouncer field to do it smart. He wanted him to go around to bring the slips into play, ignoring the fact that a both of the bats out there at the time - Dowrich and Blackwood - play quite a tidy cut shot.

He's well spoken, seemingly quite personable and knowledgeable - all of which explains why he was made captain in the first place - but if that's where his tactical head was at, it's no wonder they sucked for a very long time.
 
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Said bloke from NZ has a very well established plan, sets his field in order to both allow and deny certain aspects of the pull and hook, and is very, very good at short ball variation; not the big kinds of variation like just a slower ball bouncer, but subtle and minute changes of pace and length and release point to change the bounce/skid mix and to target different parts of the ground with the same shot. Wagner's made a career of doing it, in short, because he's very good at it and his tactical setup encourages that kind of innovation.

Nasser didn't want him to bowl short to a bouncer field to do it smart. He wanted him to go around to bring the slips into play, ignoring the fact that a both of the bats out there at the time - Dowrich and Blackwood - play quite a tidy cut shot.

He's well spoken, seemingly quite personable and knowledgeable - all of which explains why he was made captain in the first place - but if that's where his tactical head was at, it's no wonder they sucked for a very long time.

well that’s the point, they sucked until he took over. He had a better winning percentage than any of the five captains before him and got them to #3 in the world
 
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well that’s the point, they sucked until he took over. He had a better winning percentage than any of the five captains before him and got them to #3 in the world
... and there's my point. With who he had, they could've been much better, and it took the change in captaincy from him to Vaughan to really see the quality of the side come out.

England improved in spite of his leadership, not because of it.
 
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... and there's my point. With who he had, they could've been much better, and it took the change in captaincy from him to Vaughan to really see the quality of the side come out.

England improved in spite of his leadership, not because of it.
To be fair Michael Clarke and Shane Warne are both very well respected tacticians and have said a lot of dumb shite during live commentary. I think a bit of it is feeling like they have to say something the layman wouldn't even consider to earn the 'expert commentator' rep so they end up blurting out half-baked really out there stuff to fill space without really thinking it through. (Not on commentary but Steve Waugh saying BBL teams should all have one woman cricketer in the side fits the bill as well).
 
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To be fair Michael Clarke and Shane Warne are both very well respected tacticians and have said a lot of dumb sh*te during live commentary. I think a bit of it is feeling like they have to say something the layman wouldn't even consider to earn the 'expert commentator' rep so they end up blurting out half-baked really out there stuff to fill space without really thinking it through. (Not on commentary but Steve Waugh saying BBL teams should all have one woman cricketer in the side fits the bill as well).
I see what you're saying, but while those two can talk a lot of s**t I don't remember either of them deliberately removing almost every wicket taking option in order to emphasize fielding positions that are already in play.

He's also barracking a bit this series, which is annoying me.
 

Leeda

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I see what you're saying, but while those two can talk a lot of sh*t I don't remember either of them deliberately removing almost every wicket taking option in order to emphasize fielding positions that are already in play.

He's also barracking a bit this series, which is annoying me.
And why the anomosity... you used to be so cool... tattered flags and hungry for a bit of nicety..
 
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