Whyalla Steelworks to potentially close?

[Kynge of Begrem]

nice come back. nothing to add?

No point, you clearly don't know enough about the topic to engage in meaningful conversation over it.

 

[Power Raid]

No point, you clearly don't know enough about the topic to engage in meaningful conversation over it.

always open to hear other views.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I really don't think you know what you are talking about. You know quite a few buzzwords but to paraphrase Paul Keating, you're all tip but no iceberg.

I mentioned this the other day, but Power Raid seems to work on the same notion as Nigerian scam emails. To anyone who knows anything about an issue he is talking complete shite and so they soon learn to ignore him. In the past, I assumed he posted drunk. To people who don't know anything, tho, he uses random buzzwords to try and sound informed, while whacking in confusing editing and typos that mean no-one actually can discern what he's saying.

I'm guessing the intention is to fool less-educated people into thinking he knows what he is talking about and therefore his usual summary of a complaint ("criminal" unions, "one size fits all" carbon tax, etc) will make them think that ultimately the ALP is the problem.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I mentioned this the other day, but Power Raid seems to work on the same notion as Nigerian scam emails. To anyone who knows anything about an issue he is talking complete shite and so they soon learn to ignore him. In the past, I assumed he posted drunk. To people who don't know anything, tho, he uses random buzzwords to try and sound informed, while whacking in confusing editing and typos that mean no-one actually can discern what he's saying.

I'm guessing the intention is to fool less-educated people into thinking he knows what he is talking about and therefore his usual summary of a complaint ("criminal" unions, "one size fits all" carbon tax, etc) will make them think that ultimately the ALP is the problem.

yep. Anyway I have probably engaged on this issue more than I should have.

 

[Power Raid]

lol

SA has a power price problem. SA has an IR problem and union problem.

SA has an unemployment problem.

but there's no connection!

 

[Balony_pony16]

when the Australian Government wont even use Whyalla steele on projects what do they expecct

 

[little graham]

Its pretty stupid. in fact the whole lot of your are stupid.

The resources needed to make steel are just up the *en road, in quantities probably bigger than anywhere in the world, like a few hundred kilometers up the road. There's adequate rail and a really good road.

No campaigner has access to resources like this and thus could not ship steel here cheaper and easier than if built at Whyalla.

There's something really *en fishy if they can. And if they save a few dollars a ton, it costs this country so much more sending our business overseas and feeding overseas workers families instead of our own.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The story is that China has built 'too much' Steel so are selling it on the cheap everywhere. They also make inferior steel quite often and people should really be checking the quality, but just like regular consumers it seems some builders will just take whatever's cheap.

 

[cartwright]

The story is that China has built 'too much' Steel so are selling it on the cheap everywhere. They also make inferior steel quite often and people should really be checking the quality, but just like regular consumers it seems some builders will just take whatever's cheap.

definitely part of the wider issue, I believe UK and US have enacted anti-dumping.
I also believe Pyne was having discussions around enacting anti-dumping here, but not sure of outcome... or maybe that was to shorten the actual time it takes for anti-dumping to take effect. China's over produced, their economy slowed - this isn't helping the situation at all (I suppose its hard to justify buying local, when you can get the same product much cheaper)

 

[smokingjacket]

The story is that China has built 'too much' Steel so are selling it on the cheap everywhere. They also make inferior steel quite often and people should really be checking the quality, but just like regular consumers it seems some builders will just take whatever's cheap.

Some of it is absolute dogshit. Plenty of builders going around having to rip Chinese structural steel out.

 

[Puddy]

lol

SA has a power price problem. SA has an IR problem and union problem.

SA has an unemployment problem.

but there's no connection!

SA has a public sector problem. Private sector wages MUST go up, public sector wages MUST go down, or abolished all together

 

[laam]

Recent Vic government projects have clauses in the contracts to use only Australian steel. Can make some structures difficult as not everything is manufactured here, but good for the industry overall.

Chinese steel isn't as bad as it used to be, but still not to the same levels of quality control.

 

[Power Raid]

Recent Vic government projects have clauses in the contracts to use only Australian steel. Can make some structures difficult as not everything is manufactured here, but good for the industry overall.

Chinese steel isn't as bad as it used to be, but still not to the same levels of quality control.

Its a shame governments do not adhere to the spirit of their own legislation, where the racial discrimination act specifically says you can't discriminate based on nation of origin.

How good is it that China chooses to use australian stone as pavers and Adelaide chose Chinese stone as pavers? Isn't it much better when we overlook what race or where people come from when engaging in all facets of life including business? denying foreigners the right to work, the right to participate in business and the global economy is a little 1950s thinking.


So yes, chose a product based on quality but do not mandate racism in business.

 

[CM86]

Its a shame governments do not adhere to the spirit of their own legislation, where the racial discrimination act specifically says you can't discriminate based on nation of origin.

How good is it that China chooses to use australian stone as pavers and Adelaide chose Chinese stone as pavers? Isn't it much better when we overlook what race or where people come from when engaging in all facets of life including business? denying foreigners the right to work, the right to participate in business and the global economy is a little 1950s thinking.


So yes, chose a product based on quality but do not mandate racism in business.

It's racist for multicultural Australians (of all backgrounds and ancestry) to keep jobs in Australia, to help the Australian economy. Rather than to let businesses save money by paying bugger all and taking advantage of developing countries.


Your stance is bullshit. As usual.


If we had completely open boarders, you might have the slightest point... but as is, you're just trying to make this a binary position.

 

[Gough]

How is supporting local industry racist? Looks to me like these free trade agreements have fallen at the first hurdle in this case.

 

[Benno355]

I'm confused by the public reaction to this topic.
If its Electrolux, Holden, Ford, Levis (i.e consumer products) then the attitude is "free trade, we want cheaper, can't prop up a failing business etc". But when its an item that doesn't directly effect the consumer hip pocket the attitude is very different and a more "protective attitude" comes up.
The government didn't specify that all gov vehicles need to be made in AUS. Why should they need to specify that steel produced here (by some seriously overpaid operators) be used?

 

[CakeEater]

I'm confused by the public reaction to this topic.
If its Electrolux, Holden, Ford, Levis (i.e consumer products) then the attitude is "free trade, we want cheaper, can't prop up a failing business etc". But when its an item that doesn't directly effect the consumer hip pocket the attitude is very different and a more "protective attitude" comes up.
The government didn't specify that all gov vehicles need to be made in AUS. Why should they need to specify that steel produced here (by some seriously overpaid operators) be used?

I politely disagree.

The issue is that in all of the examples you have listed above( holden etc) it was clearly evident that what they were putting out was of less quality and costing more/equal to the foreign imports.

In Australian steel's case its of a higher quality than its foreign counterparts and that feedback disseminates through Australian society. Ergo The issue we have now.

 

[cartwright]

I'm confused by the public reaction to this topic.
If its Electrolux, Holden, Ford, Levis (i.e consumer products) then the attitude is "free trade, we want cheaper, can't prop up a failing business etc". But when its an item that doesn't directly effect the consumer hip pocket the attitude is very different and a more "protective attitude" comes up.
The government didn't specify that all gov vehicles need to be made in AUS. Why should they need to specify that steel produced here (by some seriously overpaid operators) be used?

Really? I remember some outcry when Bonds moved, when Holden was shut down etc. I think you're seeing what you want to see.

And the steel industry supplies many industries in Australia, and a whole town will be affected.

 

[Fire]

Its a shame governments do not adhere to the spirit of their own legislation, where the racial discrimination act specifically says you can't discriminate based on nation of origin.

How good is it that China chooses to use australian stone as pavers and Adelaide chose Chinese stone as pavers? Isn't it much better when we overlook what race or where people come from when engaging in all facets of life including business? denying foreigners the right to work, the right to participate in business and the global economy is a little 1950s thinking.


So yes, chose a product based on quality but do not mandate racism in business.

So using your logic, Chinese people should all have the right to live and work in Australia too? It would be racist to discriminate against that after all. Damned big government and its boarder controls.

 

[Power Raid]

So using your logic, Chinese people should all have the right to live and work in Australia too? It would be racist to discriminate against that after all. Damned big government and its boarder controls.

I am all for moving toward open borders and expect this to be the case within 60 years.

To make this practice we need to lift our legal framework to a global body and continue to open trade to reduce the wealth gap.

 

[Gough]

I am all for moving toward open borders and expect this to be the case within 60 years.

*except for refugees.

 

[Fire]

I am all for moving toward open borders and expect this to be the case within 60 years.

To make this practice we need to lift our legal framework to a global body and continue to open trade to reduce the wealth gap.

Fair enough, at least your consistent with your arguments.

I don't know why you expect this to happen though, when the international trend is towards tighter boarder controls.

 

[Taylor]

Its pretty stupid. in fact the whole lot of your are stupid.

The resources needed to make steel are just up the ****en road, in quantities probably bigger than anywhere in the world, like a few hundred kilometers up the road. There's adequate rail and a really good road.

No campaigner has access to resources like this and thus could not ship steel here cheaper and easier than if built at Whyalla.

There's something really ****en fishy if they can. And if they save a few dollars a ton, it costs this country so much more sending our business overseas and feeding overseas workers families instead of our own.

If it was as simple as digging it up and transporting it to the mill there wouldn't be a problem.

If it is cheaper to send it overseas, process it and send it back then there is a problem with the production expenses/business models in Australia.

Everything costs more in Australia because everything costs more. We can't compete with a $1 a day Chinese worker when the comparison Australian is looking for $400 a week to keep their home.

 

[Benno355]

I politely disagree.

The issue is that in all of the examples you have listed above( holden etc) it was clearly evident that what they were putting out was of less quality and costing more/equal to the foreign imports.

In Australian steel's case its of a higher quality than its foreign counterparts and that feedback disseminates through Australian society. Ergo The issue we have now.

I appreciate the politeness

The loss of jobs in the auto industry in AUS is 8 times the size of the population of Whyalla......
The auto industry closure is not related to quality. The auto industry is backed by the local government in EVERY producing country. Either by import duty, minimum local content requirement, number of brand restrictions etc. Holden/Ford/Toyota can sell the same number of cars in Aus and have the commercial advantage paid by the country that produces them. Profit per car sold in AUS for the 3 companies will increase after 2017. They make money building cars here. They will make more building them elsewhere. There is a reason why most other countries in the world beg and plead for an auto industry. And its not the monetary situation.

It doesn't matter if the Aus steel is of a higher "perceived" quality. The cost and/or delivery issues result in it costing more/equal to the foreign import.

My point was that the public want the government to stipulate using a more expensive material in order to protect a local industry (both in this case and in the case of Subs / Destroyers). But they did not want to do this with the auto industry (which employs plenty more than Arium/subcorp combined)

 

[CakeEater]

I appreciate the politeness

The loss of jobs in the auto industry in AUS is 8 times the size of the population of Whyalla......
The auto industry closure is not related to quality. The auto industry is backed by the local government in EVERY producing country. Either by import duty, minimum local content requirement, number of brand restrictions etc. Holden/Ford/Toyota can sell the same number of cars in Aus and have the commercial advantage paid by the country that produces them. Profit per car sold in AUS for the 3 companies will increase after 2017. They make money building cars here. They will make more building them elsewhere. There is a reason why most other countries in the world beg and plead for an auto industry. And its not the monetary situation.

It doesn't matter if the Aus steel is of a higher "perceived" quality. The cost and/or delivery issues result in it costing more/equal to the foreign import.

My point was that the public want the government to stipulate using a more expensive material in order to protect a local industry (both in this case and in the case of Subs / Destroyers). But they did not want to do this with the auto industry (which employs plenty more than Arium/subcorp combined)

Thanks for the response, You are coming at me from the wrong angle.

My response was tailored to the fact that rightly or wrongly public perception is that foreign cars are better, ergo the confidence in Australian car manufacturing diminished (and they had some incidents which dissipated confidence in them). I agree Car Manufacturing should be kept around, not just for the cars, but also the other manufacturing companies that benefit from the work. I know of many companies that started off making parts for cars and have transferred into other manufacturing sectors and done quite well.

In regards to Australian steel, the public perception through not just the Manufacturing industry, but the wider general public is that Australian steel is better. Ergo theres more of a push to retain/protect Australian steel from Joe Public, which in turn disseminates pressure onto local& federal government and the manufacturers, which is why you see the clarion calls from politicians of all guises to protect Australian steel.

I firmly believe the economic multiplier of having a large industry in town (especially in towns such as Whyalla, where I lived), where if you werent working for Arrium you were working for an industry that relied on them to finance the town and create growth potential. Evidence of this is that it has a Tafe, a University campus and other creature comforts such as movie cinemas, plenty of gyms, numerous bars and restuarants) and a freaking warship in the town that was named after it as a reminder of the importance of manufacturing to the ongoing viability of that town.

Apologies for the long winded rant here.