Will Adelaide and the Eagles finish last?

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TigerTank

Premiership Player
Aug 24, 2000
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Wendouree
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... and second last respectively?


The usual unfavourites appear to be the most popular choices for the wooden spoon, with Fremantle and Collingwood (and to a lesser extent St Kilda and Richmond) regarded by many as among the most likely.

One or two other Bigfooty members, however, have nominated the two richest clubs, Adelaide and West Coast, to finish last. I think this warrants further discussion.

Crows and Eagles fans seem to be confident that their clubs won't be in the bottom group. I want to know where they think the improvement will come from?

With Adelaide's best player (Rehn) gone and Jarman at the end of his career, who is going to pull them above last year's 11th in 2001.

As for the Eagles, the loss of Gehrig and Mitchell White makes their 'spine' look fairly weak. Again, given that the Eagles finished in the bottom half of the ladder last year even with these players, where will the improvement come from in 2001?

For those of you who think that the Eagles and Crows will struggle, what are your thoughts on how the League's two richest clubs (and they have been easily the most successful financially for the past decade) can find themselves with such pedestrian playing lists?

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TT - Obligatory bad-tempered Richmond supporter

[This message has been edited by TigerTank (edited 11 December 2000).]
 
You will get some very heated comments on this topic.

Both of these clubs have suffered from high finishes, hence missing out on the early draft picks, some poor recruiting decisions, and some failed trades. The biggest impediment, however, is that neither club is in Victoria, this is a major issue because high profile players do not want to leave Victoria, simply because that is where the big media and endorsement money will be made.

Naturally some exceptions have occurred, eg. Jarman & Wanganeen, but from memory, neither WA or SA have ever been able to recruit a high profile Victorian born & bred player.
There are many examples of star WA & SA players going to Victoria, latest being Rehn.

Anyway, for 2001 I believe both clubs will have a long hard season, whereas Port, (I'm baised) will do okay.

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Chris
 
When we were all making our ladders for the 2001 season a few weeks ago, I placed the eagles last and Adelaide in around 12th place.

I don't think either of the sides have done to well out of the trading period. And none of us will know how any of the draft picks will turn out.

However both will win their fair share of home matches and for this reason I think I have the eagles a little too low.

Lke I said in the wooden spoon thread, a lot of people had St Kilda in the top eight at the start of this season while Geelong and Melbourne were expected to be near the bottom.

I just can't wait for the new season

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Fortius Quo Fidelius

[This message has been edited by sainter (edited 11 December 2000).]
 

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You would expect that the bottom team will probably only win a maximum of four or five games in a normal year. Both the eagles and crows have both been successful at home in front of large home crowds and will always win at least half of those games even in a disastrous year.

So almost by default, they have already avoided coming last just by winning five or six of their home games. Even if they have abysmal years they will also grab a couple of interstate games which brings them up to seven or eight wins and into 10th/11th spot.

Adelaide and West Coast are the sides that can slip under the guard of the victorians because they don't get the publicity in Melbourne that the other sides get and aren't well known. I remember in '97 when we suffered a lot of injuries and were written off, the supporters realized the players who were coming back over the last few weeks of the year to strengthen the side and were getting confident about the finals even thought they weren't considered by most football followers.

Both sides have got more ability that they are given credit for.
 
The run of injuries sustained by the Eagles last year was the worst in it's history. Here is a list of those who missed a lot of footy and played with injuries.
Gardiner
Braun
Cousins
Both Materas
Cummings
Wirrpunda
Mckenna
Mcintosh
Banfield
Gasper
White
Gehrig
From these Mckenna has retired and Gehrig and White were traded. Gehrig has huge potential but was a total waste of time for the whole of last season and will not be missed. White is a good player but past his best. He will be missed. Mckenna really struggled despite being a legend. So we really have not lost much from last season and have ten players coming back after operations and an extra long off season break. That alone should mean a much better season next year but wait......
The Eagles have added depth in signing..
Michael Prior
Trent Carrol
Michael Collica
Greg Harding
Richard Taylor
Mark Merenda
David Sierakowski

And what about the young rookies blooded last year that have huge potential....
Darren Glass
Andrew Williams
Rowan Jones
Andrew Embley
Kasey Green
David Antonowitcz
Kane Munro
Adam Hunter

All blooded and potential stars.

What the Eagles have now got is good depth. It is true that we don't appear to have an obvious CHF and it will be interesting to see how that is addressed.
I would be very surprised if the Eagles failed to make the finals.
 
Unfortunately both clubs are stuck with coaches who have an overtly negative approach to each playing list.

I lost count of the times last season Ken Judge said in fornt of press conference that he thinks the current WCE list 'is not much' - sooner or later that kind of bullsh*t rubs off onto the players and they start thinking the same thing. "If the coach dosn't think I'm any good - why should anybody else ?"

As for Ayres - well, the guy seems to have absolutely no people skills at all. The Shaun Rehn incident just being one example of how this person likes to treat players.

Sooner or later these types of actions have a demoralising effect on a footy club. So, regardless of the playing talent (which is still very good at both clubs) I don't think the Crwos or the Eagles will do much this season - because the coaches don't think so either and when the coach dosn't think you are goping to win - why should you ?

cheers
 
I agree with BSA's point about Ken Judge. Being so openly negative and defensive will eventually have an impact. Most Hawk's supporters realise it's influence in the coaching box can be even worse.

There are times that an honest appraisal of the list is entirely necessary and in times of genuine rebuilding he may be the type of coach required. He did succeed in getting a number of the Hawks 'young guns'.

However when the times comes to take the next step and attack, which is necessary for any top four side, he is found to be sadly lacking. I am not convinced that West Coast is in (or needs to be in) as big a rebuilding phase as he makes out. The cynic in me says it is unadulterated backside-covering on his behalf.
 
We can debate this forever but the Crows will NOT finish in the bottom four. Simply too much talent and as already pointed out, there will be enough home games against beatable opposition. Rehn isn't that big a loss and anything Jarman does is a bonus. I repeat, Adelaide will NOT finish in the bottom four. I can't speak for West Coast though.....
 
I think the bulldogs will do pretty crap next year, their list looks worse now than it has ever been. WC nor Freo will be the wooden spooners, Port Adelaide is my strong tip, u know a club is in trouble when they're thinking about dropping some of their quality players.

When does footy start anyway, i'm getting pissed off with these discussions on who will come last, no one knows....it all depends on injuries and the confidence factor. It can't be that far off can it?

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I was put on this Earth to complete a certain number of tasks. I am so far behind I will never die...
 
My god!!!!!!!! IT CAN'T BE TRUE!!! I HAVE FINALLY SEEN A VICTORIAN SAYING THAT AN INTERSTATE TEAM WONT COME LAST!!! Whats the world sinking to? Any of you vics ever considered that a victorian team might come last....*SHOCK* *HORROR*

And to all u vics that might somehow get offended to this post, im only joking!

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I was put on this Earth to complete a certain number of tasks. I am so far behind I will never die...
 
I agree with BSA.

Ayres and Judge have to be the two worst coaches in the league.

Gary Ayres seems to have a fear of anyone over 26. Apparently, older players can't play. His treatment of Ablett and Hocking, and now Darren Jarman was and is pathetic.

Ken Judge is far too negative, bit seems to be a god politician, and is theefore able to stay at the helm of his clubs. He usually spins some crap like "We're rebuilding".

Unfortunately for Hawk fans, they were rebuilding for 5 years. You get the feeling, that if he stayed there for 10 years, they still would have been rebuilding.

However despite the flaws at the head coaching posts at the two clubs, they should win half their home games (plus the inevitable 1 or 2 away games) which should give them at least 7 wins, and and avoidance of football's most unwanted prize. A Victorian team is more likely to get the wooden spoon. Adelaide's and West Coast's home ground advantage is so pronounced that you can bank on them winning MIMIMUM 5 home games.
 

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Ken Judges negativity last year and publicly bagging his players was an absolute disgrace.
However, I am hoping it was all a ploy to get the Malthouse monkey off his back. Taking over from such a successful coach is not an enviable job. If he had scraped us into the finals without the negativity and bagging then he still would have copped a lot of flak. As long as the Eagles make the finals this year then the way he has orchestrated things will suggest that he was correct and sorted things out within a year.

And in all honesty I cant see the Eagles losing 11 matches.
 
Originally posted by TigerTank:
One or two other Bigfooty members, however, have nominated the two richest clubs, Adelaide and West Coast, to finish last. I think this warrants further discussion.

Crows and Eagles fans seem to be confident that their clubs won't be in the bottom group. I want to know where they think the improvement will come from?

With Adelaide's best player (Rehn) gone and Jarman at the end of his career, who is going to pull them above last year's 11th in 2001.

[/B]

This is a fair enough question. So I will go through it quickly.

Rehn is a loss, certainly, but he was a long long way off being Adelaides best player this year. As an indicator, Crows had three players picked as all-Australians (you could argue not deserved, but it does show they were about the mark anyway). Rehn was nowhere near a consideration.

So Rehns contribution from 2000 will not be that difficult to replace.

Jarman is getting on, undoubtedly, but he never did rely on pace, and he is still worth at least 30 goals.

Stevens and Burton are good contributers when they play, both of these barely had a game this year through injury. Theres a potential improvement.

Hewitt and Bode both promise to be able to add to Crows forward line. Hewitt may even be able to fill the problematic (for Crows) CHF key position.

Most, if not all, of the negative comment about crows originates in Victoria. They really don't have a clue whats going on with Crows, so to answer some of the common criticisms:
Ayres/Crows had a shaky start in 2000, not that unusual for a new coach and Crows were definately down on confidence from 1999. The remainder of the 2000 season, after the bad start, was 9 form 17 which actually was quite an improvement over 1999 WITH BLIGHT!
Crows have added Neil Craig to their coaching panel. This is very significant, and will help Crows in a number of ways. Their finishing of games will be vastly better, and their tactics will be somewhat improved.

Finally Crows have a couple of picks to come yet. They have had a raft of players training well, to such an extent that Crows have made extra room on their list in order to be able to pick a couple of these players. So Crows must rate them.

Summary:
Losses will not be hard to cover.
Forward line will improve, possibly by a great deal.
Turnover rate will be significantly reduced (no Connell, and Ghallager won't get a game).
Coaching/tactics will improve.
Fitness will be much improved.
Crows are already being vastly underestimated.

Its all good news, really. How can we lose?
 
The Eagles wont finish last there are too many mediocre teams out there like PA, Crows, Collingwood. All teams we can finish ahead of, our list isnt as bad as perceived by others.

If we go injury free then we'll make a good run at the finals. As for the Crows well with PA aswell i feel sorry for South Australia. At least they've got the 36ers although they still get beaten by the Wildcats.
 
i agree with bsa history has shown[and being a richmond supporter i can vouch for this
smile.gif
]it all comes down to the coach if he makes the wrong choices off the feild as far a things like people skills etc then the coach will fight a losing battle.the way i see it ayres and judge have made bad judgments regarding the way they come across regarding the players and unless their is a major makeover of the way they belittle the players to the media then im afriad their tendure at their respective clubs will be short.
oh and due to their home advantage niether side will finish last.
cheers!
 
CrowsOK - good message. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. How about posting some stuff on our Adelaide Board. Poor old Bluey thought we'd all faded away.
 
Originally posted by jod23:
The Eagles wont finish last there are too many mediocre teams out there like PA, Crows, Collingwood. All teams we can finish ahead of, our list isnt as bad as perceived by others.

If we go injury free then we'll make a good run at the finals. As for the Crows well with PA aswell i feel sorry for South Australia. At least they've got the 36ers although they still get beaten by the Wildcats.


Hello???????? Now just who DID win that game in Perth recently? And who's on top of the NBL ladder?
 
It seems both teams will be battling it out for 2nd last.

Last place will undoubtably go to collingwood for the simple reason that, they dont have the luxury of the 11 games were crowd support is in there favour.Even though technically collingwood only have to play 4 away games.

Now who finish second last out of these two is debateable.
I know west coast best, and from what I can see they will certainly struggle next year.Probally more so than the crows, but longterm wise eagles are ahead because they have far more QUALITY young players than that of the crows.

But eagles lost big time in the trading stakes.They lost 2 of there 3 most dangerous forwards.Plus there only 2 quality key position forward players.Cummings was useless all year and will continue to be useless.He is the most one dimensional player in the league and is main feeder white is gone.

Gehrig even though his heart wasn't in it in the end.Was a constant threat and could be a match winner at any stage.

Now that these two players are gone, phil Matera will be seen as the major threat and he has lost the players he usually feeds off.There half forward line has now become the weakest in the league and will be repelled by any other team with the greatist of ease.They still have a quality backline and midfield, but even the best will loose touch and get dis heartened when all there good work is undone by a forward line that doesnt put up a fight.

Ealges haven't recruited well and didnt fill these gaps.At least Adelaide attempted to fill there lacking in key position players.

For me its
14.Adelaide
15.Eagles
16.Collingwood

But as mentioned previously
Longterm wise Adealiade have problems.But were not talking about that now are we.
 
Ok I can't comment on Adelaide, but I'll say a short piece on the Eagles:

I can't see the Eagles coming 16th or 15th in 2001. I'm not saying we're going to be a Top 8 side either but we can definately improve from this year.

sabre_ac mentioned the Eagles had lost 2 of their most dangerous forwards. Both didn't seem dangerous at all, in fact they almost seemed to be restricting the Eagles firepower in the forward line. So who will the Eagles find to replace these players? Andrew Embley has definately improved in leaps and bounds in the past and I've got a strong feeling 2001 will be his year to shine. The Eagles are also very keen to pick up Troy Wilson from East Perth who would fit nicely into Center Half Foward.

Other goal scorers who will score throughout the year will come from Sierakowski, Merenda, Taylor, Collica - we haven't even started with the regular stars yet (Cummings, Matera Brothers, Cousins, Braun, Kemp)

This year the Eagles showed they CAN play good footy (Beating North by 43, Adelaide by 114, Dockers by 117)

Call me crazy but I would be a bit more concerned with resolving the Dockers problem in 2000 which was losing 8 games by 60 points or more.
 
Wow look at all those stars West Coast has recruited! Richard Taylor, David Sierakowski and Michael Prior. Pretty scary talent!

Like many great teams the Eagles have been slowly ebbing away with few players left from the glory years in the early 90s and those that are left are just about on their last legs. The players who have replaced them have on the whole disappointed (Cousins maybe being the exception) and their talent pool has been diminished by the emergence of Fremantle.

Why they signed Ken Judge is a mystery - he would have to be one of the worst coaches in recent memory.

Adelaide also appears to be having a problem replacing their ageing stars. Additionally, they had a poorer list to start with (but one that Blight ewas able to do wonders with). The number of premiership players axed by Adelaide is stacking up.

The draft picks excuse isn't a particularly good one (what about the Blues, the Dons and the Roos who were in the same position) - it appears to be a bad case of poor succession planning. North Melbourne (the other, or the, team of the 90s) appears to have done better with their lists than the Crows or the Eags but was heading down the same track until the preseason draft this year.

Nonetheless I think Freo will be successfully fending them off for the wooden spoon.
 
Sabre, Gehrig did nothing at all last season. A schoolboy would have made more contribution. White was injured and was poor. Our trading has been exceptional, just look at the experience and depth we have added. I can make an easy prediction that the Eagles will beat Freo twice next season and by at least six goals each time.
What a difference a shirt makes. Peter Bell at the Dockers was hopeless, pur a Kangaroo shirt on him and he was good. Put the Dockers shirt on him again and he won't look good. Conversely watch out for Trent Carol and Greg Harding, in Eagles shirts they will be stars.

Wherever Freo finish the Eagles will be at least four places higher. So lets hope you finish 5th
 
Originally posted by GoEagles:

Other goal scorers who will score throughout the year will come from ... Taylor, Collica

Hahahaha, thanks GoEagles I needed a good laugh. Most Hawks supporters will be having a nice old chuckle about the goals scoring capabilities of Taylor and Collica.
 
elt - I did a bit of research on both players and I was quite impressed. Taylor had more than 450 possessions in 22 games (came 2nd in the club champion awards behind Smurf Crawford) whilst Collica also played the full 22 games in 1999. Collica is returning to his home state and is only 24, still to reach the peak of his career. Both players have scored goals in their playing seasons, so my claim has been supported.
 

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