Opinion Will either Carlton or Essendon be the bolter in 2022?

Which club is more likely to win another flag first?


  • Total voters
    220

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HereComesJuddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2008
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Based on the rating of one player? I’ve been pretty clear that I see the two sides at a similar level.

Heck other pro Carlton opinions I have:

- McKay is a top 5 player in the game

- I’m bullish on McGovern, Martin and Williams turning it around

- I think Saad was better at Essendon and will regain that form under Voss

- I think Fisher and Cunningham assuming they stay fit could give Carlton a point of difference off the HFF/rotating mid next year

- I’m very open to the idea of Cripps getting back to his best

- Cerra will likely be a steal at the price Carlton paid.

- TDK is too big, skillful and athletic not to make it as a ruckman.

- Hewett a defensive minded player who has shown the ability to play a variety of roles well fits perfectly.

Plenty to like at Carlton doesn’t change the fact Curnow has never put together a full year of quality football.
You might be right. Injuries have prevented him from hitting the peaks most throughout the football world thought he would.

34 goals in only his 3rd year is a pretty good year. Maybe it wasn't quality enough in your opinion for a 21 year old in a team that won only 2 games that year.

I know who I'd be choosing I'm my team out of the 2 players for the next few years
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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You might be right. Injuries have prevented him from hitting the peaks most throughout the football world thought he would.

34 goals in only his 3rd year is a pretty good year. Maybe it wasn't quality enough in your opinion for a 21 year old in a team that won only 2 games that year.

I know who I'd be choosing I'm my team out of the 2 players for the next few years

None of his potential shown is relevant to the discussion though.

I mean Cripps best has been clearly better then Walsh’s but everyone would take Walsh ahead of Cripps

I’d probably take Curnow going forward as well given his age and pre injury form but that wasn’t what was argued. If you confine it down who’s going to be better in 2022 I’d probably take the safe bet in Shiel.
 

HereComesJuddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2008
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None of his potential shown is relevant to the discussion though.

I mean Cripps best has been clearly better then Walsh’s but everyone would take Walsh ahead of Cripps

I’d probably take Curnow going forward as well given his age and pre injury form but that wasn’t what was argued. If you confine it down who’s going to be better in 2022 I’d probably take the safe bet in Shiel.
Safe bet with average disposal 🤔 Clearly worth 2 1sts... No thanks!

But again, you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't rate Shiel in the top 50 midfielders in the comp so I just can't agree he is a safe bet out of the 2.
 

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Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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Safe bet with average disposal 🤔 Clearly worth 2 1sts... No thanks!

But again, you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't rate Shiel in the top 50 midfielders in the comp so I just can't agree he is a safe bet out of the 2.

Entitled your opinion I guess. He has under performed his trade for sure but he’s still a very good footballer.

He’s one of the best centre clearance players in the comp with ability to break away from stoppages with speed. Sits comfortably in the top 50 mids for mine. Would not be surprised if he outperforms Parish next season.
 

HereComesJuddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2008
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Entitled your opinion I guess. He has under performed his trade for sure but he’s still a very good footballer.

He’s one of the best centre clearance players in the comp with ability to break away from stoppages with speed. Sits comfortably in the top 50 mids for mine. Would not be surprised if he outperforms Parish next season.
I'm glad he can break away from a stoppage. It's what comes next that is his major issue. The guy cannot kick a football and everyone knows it.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
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TBF looking at how poor Petracca, Viney and Oliver’s kicking efficiency is if Essendon play a game style where hitting targets isn’t a huge issue then Shiel could be a weapon again out of stoppages. I’m more curious of where he and Caldwell fit into the setup for them and how much that takes away from those guys who stepped up this season
 

HereComesJuddy

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 16, 2008
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Carlton
TBF looking at how poor Petracca, Viney and Oliver’s kicking efficiency is if Essendon play a game style where hitting targets isn’t a huge issue then Shiel could be a weapon again out of stoppages. I’m more curious of where he and Caldwell fit into the setup for them and how much that takes away from those guys who stepped up this season
Rate Caldwell. Think he will be an absolute gun
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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TBF looking at how poor Petracca, Viney and Oliver’s kicking efficiency is if Essendon play a game style where hitting targets isn’t a huge issue then Shiel could be a weapon again out of stoppages. I’m more curious of where he and Caldwell fit into the setup for them and how much that takes away from those guys who stepped up this season

His kicking issues are also way overblown because he’s prone to shocking shanks.

Shiel has been top 5 in the league for goal assists before and is a very damaging player. He also works hard both ways and is better at team defence then both Merrett and Parish. Ofcourse his best footy may just be behind him but I’m bullish on him getting back to his best then all of sudden Essendon’s top 3 mids look very very good.

For mine McGrath moved to wing/utility role and then our main midfield rotation as Merrett, Parish, Shiel and Caldwell with Stringer attending centre bounces.
 

JustaBattler

Everyone Looks Better In Blue
May 31, 2012
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Some epic battles between the Clubs coming over the next few years - no doubt about that.
 

Yoda_

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None of his potential shown is relevant to the discussion though.

I mean Cripps best has been clearly better then Walsh’s but everyone would take Walsh ahead of Cripps

I’d probably take Curnow going forward as well given his age and pre injury form but that wasn’t what was argued. If you confine it down who’s going to be better in 2022 I’d probably take the safe bet in Shiel.

This was pretty much my premise.


Shiel is an All Australian which suggests at his best he (on what he has given us) is a much better player than Curnow. As you mention, Curnow could well end up being a much better player at the conclusion of both careers.




For the record, my initial discussion point was that both Dylan Shiel (22/45 games) and Charlie Curnow (4/44 games) are injury prone players who have missed large chunks of football in the last two years. Both players could seriously change the direction of there own team.
 

The Prosecutor

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Sep 13, 2011
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There's a good argument that Carlton will finish ahead of us in 2022, however I'm very content with our medium-long term position.
 

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Yoda_

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I like what Ambrosia did; Carlton fans should be bullish with so much to look forward to;

1) Sam Walsh - enough said

2) Patty Cripps getting back to his best

3) The bookends are probably the best under 24 pairing in the comp (McKay/FF & Weitering FB)

4) The kids we haven't seen much of are largely untapped. Tom De Kooning, Brodie Kemp, Jack Carrol, Josh Honey, Sam Philp etc.)

5) The upside still in that 22 - 25 year old age group. I

6) The fixture they've got lends to a better finish than what they've achieved in recent years.
 

La Dispute

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No need to be like that.. Out of contract small defender not worth a top 10 pick either but there you go
For role and importance to the team they wouldn’t be far apart.

Shiel is basically Essendon’s version of Jaegar O’Meara. Plays a couple of big games every year and Bomber supporters get very hot and bothered but otherwise is more a B+ mid week-to-week. Now overtaken by Parish in the midfield stakes, and Merrett has always been a superior player. McGrath may also overtake him.

It’s kind of a nice problem to have, but if Essendon had their time again they wouldn’t be flinging 2x first round picks for him. He also looks to have lost a yard of pace (which was his number one weapon - completely attributable to injury) and has never been a great kick.

He was a much better and more damaging player at GWS IMO.
 

Yoda_

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For role and importance to the team they wouldn’t be far apart.

Shiel is basically Essendon’s version of Jaegar O’Meara. Plays a couple of big games every year and Bomber supporters get very hot and bothered but otherwise is more a B+ mid week-to-week. Now overtaken by Parish in the midfield stakes, and Merrett has always been a superior player. McGrath may also overtake him.

It’s kind of a nice problem to have, but if Essendon had their time again they wouldn’t be flinging 2x first round picks for him. He also looks to have lost a yard of pace (which was his number one weapon - completely attributable to injury) and has never been a great kick.

He was a much better and more damaging player at GWS IMO.

Overpaying hasn't been a strong quality of ours, Shiel in hindsight was a poor trade and many Essendon supporters probably agree. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.
 

Arr0w

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Nov 13, 2015
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How funny judging players on AA honours

End of 2020, Byrne-Jones was AA, would anyone of wanted him ahead of Harry McKay end 2020?

Hilarious
 

Red_man2008

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Jan 2, 2009
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Michael Voss getting another job as senior coach just shows how hard Carlton had to scrape the bottom of the barrel searching for a new coach. Carlton right now are exactly where Richmond were at 1999 off season/2000 pre season.

No coach wanted to touch Richmond with a 10 foot pole back then due to their senior coach revolving door and no coach wanted to touch Carlton with a 10 foot pole when they were looking for a senior coach recently. Richmond had to scrape the bottom of the barrel really hard for Danny Frawley to get a job as a senior coach much like Carlton had to do with Voss.

Carlton better hope and pray Voss isn't a flop, because either way they'll be stuck with him for 5 years much like how Richmond were stuck with Frawley for 5 years. Although Frawley took Richmond to a preliminary final and the odds of Voss taking Carlton to a preliminary final in the next 5 years are about 500 to 1.
Ill put $10 on this if you’re prepared to take the bet.
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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For role and importance to the team they wouldn’t be far apart.

Shiel is basically Essendon’s version of Jaegar O’Meara. Plays a couple of big games every year and Bomber supporters get very hot and bothered but otherwise is more a B+ mid week-to-week. Now overtaken by Parish in the midfield stakes, and Merrett has always been a superior player. McGrath may also overtake him.

It’s kind of a nice problem to have, but if Essendon had their time again they wouldn’t be flinging 2x first round picks for him. He also looks to have lost a yard of pace (which was his number one weapon - completely attributable to injury) and has never been a great kick.

He was a much better and more damaging player at GWS IMO.

I don’t think he’s lost any pace. He didn’t look himself coming back after a long lay off but not many do after missing 18 weeks of footy.

2022 is a make or break year in terms of whether or not he has any top line footy left in him. The first half of 2020 is the last time he was playing that level of footy and it’s starting to look a long time ago
 

RobR

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No need to be like that.. Out of contract small defender not worth a top 10 pick either but there you go
Mate you keep saying pick 8 for Saad, it was pick 8 and we got Durdin with a 3rd round we got back in that trade. Now if Durdin becomes a best 22 player Saad was a steal and if he fails then Saad was too expensive, so from now on keep away from the bulldust key.
 

Yoda_

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Mate you keep saying pick 8 for Saad, it was pick 8 and we got Durdin with a 3rd round we got back in that trade. Now if Durdin becomes a best 22 player Saad was a steal and if he fails then Saad was too expensive, so from now on keep away from the bulldust key.

Kinda like being told Shiel was bought for two firsts when Essendon received a second round selection with Dyl.

Semantics ey


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Arr0w

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Kinda like being told Shiel was bought for two firsts when Essendon received a second round selection with Dyl.

Semantics ey


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Value of giving up 2 1sts (both top 10) with a returning 2nd is higher that paying a 1st + 2nd

But apparently he is a better player than Charlie Curnow based on an AA

I guess Lewis Taylor is the equal of Walsh given the both won a rising star