Opinion Will either Carlton or Essendon be the bolter in 2022?

Which club is more likely to win another flag first?


  • Total voters
    314

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Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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Value of giving up 2 1sts (both top 10) with a returning 2nd is higher that paying a 1st + 2nd

But apparently he is a better player than Charlie Curnow based on an AA

I guess Lewis Taylor is the equal of Walsh given the both won a rising star

Picks 11 and 14 are top 10 now? No one is arguing Essendon paid overs for Shiel.

What metric to compare Shiel’s best season to Curnow’s? AFLCA votes, Brownlow votes, Best and fairest placings?

You’re the only one still harping on this. Make a case that Curnow’s best season is better then Shiels instead of whinging about the validity of AA.
 

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Arr0w

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Picks 11 and 14 are top 10 now? No one is arguing Essendon paid overs for Shiel.

What metric to compare Shiel’s best season to Curnow’s? AFLCA votes, Brownlow votes, Best and fairest placings?

You’re the only one still harping on this. Make a case that Curnow’s best season is better then Shiels instead of whinging about the validity of AA.

It's really easy actually, assess a player on what they have done and or what they are capable of in the future.

Shiel is a blue collar mid, that has some damaging moments. Won AA at 24

Charlie, been out for 2 years, through that 24 year old period, so still has time to produce on his talent.

Let's stop using awards/flags to rate players, Townsend won a flag with Tigers, Taylor won a rising star, then fell away, Minson was AA, but wouldn't be listed as top 10 ruckman of the last decade.It's merely a p1ssing contest.

It's about the sum of all parts and Yoda has made it very clear where he believes both side will finish this year, but base on what has happened rather than what could play out
 
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Yoda_

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It's really easy actually, assess a player on what they have done and or what they are capable of in the future.

Shiel is a blue collar mid, that has some damaging moments. Won AA at 24

Charlie, been out for 2 years, through that 24 year old period, so still has time to produce on his talent.

Let's stop using awards/flags to rate players, Townsend won a flag with Tigers, Taylor won a rising star, then fell away, Minson was AA, but wouldn't be listed as top 10 ruckman of the last decade.It's merely a p1ssing contest.

It's about the sum of all parts and Yoda has made it very clear where he believes both side will finish this year, but base on what has happened rather than what could play out

No matter what is said, no matter what evidence is provided, you won’t believe anything other than this world of delusion you love in.

Re read what I’ve said and stop making shit up to make yourself feel and look better. Shiel literally has an AA jacket which obviously shows his best is better than Curnows.

I few things I’d like to correct you on but as mentioned, you want to live in your own delusional world


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Arr0w

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No matter what is said, no matter what evidence is provided, you won’t believe anything other than this world of delusion you love in.

Re read what I’ve said and stop making sh*t up to make yourself feel and look better. Shiel literally has an AA jacket which obviously shows his best is better than Curnows.

I few things I’d like to correct you on but as mentioned, you want to live in your own delusional world


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I am a realist, unlike your dreamworld of finishing top 4 this year

Me stating that both our sides have similar lists to reach 11-13 wins isn't delusional, nor suggesting the bullshit analysis based around players with individual awards

Just think, based on the above, you would have stated Shiel was a better player than McKay end of 2020 because one has AA honours

Really looking forward to end of the year, revisiting your predictions will be fun
 

Bjchan13

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Jul 23, 2018
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Yeh I really like him, I just wonder what his role is likely to be and who’s role he and Shiel are taking.
They are both midfielders, so midfield with stints forward will be their role in a basic sense. I dont think either will necessarily be 'taking' anyones role from last year, but you're right in that they do have to be integrated back into the best 22 after each missing the majority of the season. That is Trucks job, and he would be absolutely thrilled at the prospect of having those 2 to add to last years midfield mix. Jyes concern is obviously the hamstrings, there is no doubt about his playing ability. Still only 21 so his whole career is ahead of him. Shiel is turning 29 in a couple of months which makes him a veteren of our list, but he is a pro and will definitely be out to prove he still has plenty of good footy left to play. He was earmarked last year for more stints forward but will definitely be attending his fair share of stoppages. Very good clearance player still.
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
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I am a realist, unlike your dreamworld of finishing top 4 this year

Me stating that both our sides have similar lists to reach 11-13 wins isn't delusional, nor suggesting the bullshit analysis based around players with individual awards

Just think, based on the above, you would have stated Shiel was a better player than McKay end of 2020 because one has AA honours

Really looking forward to end of the year, revisiting your predictions will be fun

Up until 2020 Shiel was the better player then Mckay there is no argument otherwise.

You can predict that Curnow will be better then Shiel I doubt anyone has a problem with that but to say he has been better/is the better player is absurd.

Again provide some analysis that has Curnow the better performed player instead of just criticising other methods.
 

Yoda_

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I am a realist, unlike your dreamworld of finishing top 4 this year

Me stating that both our sides have similar lists to reach 11-13 wins isn't delusional, nor suggesting the bullshit analysis based around players with individual awards

Just think, based on the above, you would have stated Shiel was a better player than McKay end of 2020 because one has AA honours

Really looking forward to end of the year, revisiting your predictions will be fun

Again, have never stated Essendon finishing top 4 is certain. Have suggested that with more rapid improvement it’s not out of the realms of possibility.

As ambrosia said, no one is doubting Curnow could be the better player but right now Shiel’s best is better.


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Arr0w

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Up until 2020 Shiel was the better player then Mckay there is no argument otherwise.

You can predict that Curnow will be better then Shiel I doubt anyone has a problem with that but to say he has been better/is the better player is absurd.

Again provide some analysis that has Curnow the better performed player instead of just criticising other methods.

Sheil is 28/29, McKay was still growing into his body and already showing signs that he would be a better player.

Never said any of Shiel or Curnow is the better player right now, all I stated was it is hilarious to use individual awards as a maker of rating players
 
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Arr0w

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Again, have never stated Essendon finishing top 4 is certain. Have suggested that with more rapid improvement it’s not out of the realms of possibility.

As ambrosia said, no one is doubting Curnow could be the better player but right now Shiel’s best is better.


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And Shiel is 4 years older
 

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branedotorg

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Nov 9, 2007
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Carlton A Graders - Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, McKay

Essendon A Graders - Merret, Parish, Stringer, Ridley




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I'm biased here but i'd have all but Cripps ahead of the essendon guys and that's on his current form, not what he's done in the past.

big thing the dons did in 2021 was get a good performance across the team, especially amongst the youngest players in the group. hope voss can do something similar.
 

JustaBattler

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May 31, 2012
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Essendon has more momentum going its way as far as developing youth and players like Parish announcing themselves than Carlton at this stage.
A lot has to go right for Carlton to establish itself as a genuine finals team - most importantly is getting blokes like Charlie Curnow/Marchbank/Cuningham back on to the field and getting some sort of at least average midfield competency happening.

High hopes for a totally new coaching 'team' - is all well and good but it takes time for coaches to figure out how to get the best from what they have at their disposal and for players to get sorted out in terms of who fits into whatever game plan and structures the coaches want to go ahead with.

If it all 'clicks' faster than average expectation anything could happen - but there will be issues to deal with. Carlton supporters are a hopeful bunch - but hope often knocks on faith's door and no one answers.

One thing is for sure - it is pretty certain given blokes coming back from injury and the development trajectory of some decent talent on the books and new recruits to midfield that the team should be far far more competitive over 4 quarters - that will be fun to watch.
 

WilloTree

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Sheil is 28/29, McKay was still growing into his body and already showing signs that he would be a better player.

Never said any of Shiel or Curnow is the better player right now, all I stated was it is hilarious to use individual awards as a maker of rating players
As much as we all like to have a go at the AA selectors for some of their howlers, they get a lot right.

It's nothing new to use AAs as an indication that a player has been recognised as having a very good year.
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
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Yeah, have clearly stated it is flawed to use individual awards as an indicator

They're not the worst indicator however. They generally suggest a player is elite by position, which is kind of the point when you're discussing the quality of an individual player.
 

Arr0w

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As much as we all like to have a go at the AA selectors for some of their howlers, they get a lot right.

It's nothing new to use AAs as an indication that a player has been recognised as having a very good year.

You could argue that Shiel's output was better in 2016 and generally there is a higher % of AA players in years sides make finals.

Either way, I wouldn't use it to compare the quality of players, especially when they play different positions
 

Arr0w

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They're not the worst indicator however. They generally suggest a player is elite by position, which is kind of the point when you're discussing the quality of an individual player.

2 KPF's kick 80 goals in a season, named in the AA side, the 3rd KPF kicks 75 goals and misses out

Yet, you could have 10 mids, named from the centre, wings, HF and bench spots
 

owen87

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Apr 23, 2016
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2 KPF's kick 80 goals in a season, named in the AA side, the 3rd KPF kicks 75 goals and misses out

Yet, you could have 10 mids, named from the centre, wings, HF and bench spots

They generally suggest a player is elite by position

Also; when was the last time 3 x players kicked > 75 goals in a season?

edit: I've answered for you; 2016. All 3 made the final AA side.


edit 2: Next was 2009. All 3 made the final AA side.


2008 was the last time you had 3 players kick 75 goals and not have all 3 make the AA side. So coming up on 14 years.
 
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Arr0w

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Also; when was the last time 3 x players kicked > 75 goals in a season?

edit: I've answered for you; 2016. All 3 made the final AA side.


Think you are too caught up with the numbers rather than the concept, I mean what if the 4th KPF kicked 4 less goals that year (jenkins), would he be considered better than the 10th best mid?

Given both Shiel and McKay both have 1 AA gig, would you consider them to be equal in talent? Would you take a 24 year Shiel or a 24 year old McKay
 

Yoda_

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I’d just like to reiterate my original point that Shiel’s best is better than Curnow’s on performance as evidenced by Shiel having an AA guernsey.

We can all agree that Curnow’s potential is elite but we haven’t seen it.

That was my original point. No hypothetical’s, no opinions. Facts.


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