Opinion Will either Carlton or Essendon be the bolter in 2022?

Which club is more likely to win another flag first?


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Yoda_

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But to justify his worth in the ruck you compared him to a rookie selection in Levi, bizarre

This was my first line to your reply, "A reasonable pick up for a 4th rounder"

Yet anything that isn't glowing or highlights a flaw, you take it as trolling

Relax a little
Once a player has entered the system, why should a player be held to there draft pick? Especially after several years in the system.. weird


As a player who has been in the system for several years, and as a player who performs a similar role, it should be a reasonable discussion point imho
 

Arr0w

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Once a player has entered the system, why should a player be held to there draft pick? Especially after several years in the system.. weird


As a player who has been in the system for several years, and as a player who performs a similar role, it should be a reasonable discussion point imho

Someone compared Wright to Curnow, I shared a view ( and some knowledge, you are not the only person to know recruiters and managers on BF) about Cox and Wright and you get defensive

I am not the one that is concerned where some players are taken or what their trade value is, there are enough trolls doing that in here

Seriously lighten up
 
Last edited:

Yoda_

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Someone compared Wright to Curnow, I shared a view ( and some knowledge, you are not the only person to know recruiters and managers on BF) about Cox and Wright and you get defensive

I am not the one that is concerned where some players are taken or what their trade value is, there are enough trolls doing that in here

Seriously lighten up

Even after all our tooing and froing our responses are obviously getting lost in translation. No touchiness from my end bud :thumbsu:
 

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FlowersByIrene

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Someone compared Wright to Curnow, I shared a view ( and some knowledge, you are not the only person to know recruiters and managers on BF) about Cox and Wright and you get defensive

I am not the one that is concerned where some players are taken or what their trade value is, there are enough trolls doing that in here

Seriously lighten up
Jesus who compared Wright to Curnow? That's a big yikes.
 

Grand Uncle Horace

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Given the Dons made the 8 in 2021, for them to be 'the bolter' in 2022 would IMO require them to make top 4 and a PF. I really cannot see that happening. That said, they have an even squad and a lot of young players who already have shown they will make their mark. I like their mids and ability run both ways.

For the Blues to be the bolter they would need a 12:10 result which probably sees them on the edge of 8. I cannot see that happening without a remarkable coaching performance from Voss and co, even with their favourable draw. The list is very anaemic and players like Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, lob, Setterfield etc are liabilities in fast transition footy (attacking and defending)
 

owen87

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Given the Dons made the 8 in 2021, for them to be 'the bolter' in 2022 would IMO require them to make top 4 and a PF. I really cannot see that happening. That said, they have an even squad and a lot of young players who already have shown they will make their mark. I like their mids and ability run both ways.

For the Blues to be the bolter they would need a 12:10 result which probably sees them on the edge of 8. I cannot see that happening without a remarkable coaching performance from Voss and co, even with their favourable draw. The list is very anaemic and players like Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, lob, Setterfield etc are liabilities in fast transition footy (attacking and defending)

I don't think their list is necessarily as bad as it seems, there's a lot of untried players or ones with limited experience.

If Voss can get them playing to a reasonable system, a lot of the guys who seem like spuds suddenly start looking like AFL standard players. The top-end talent is there, it's the rest of the list that people simply have no idea whether it's up to par or not.
 

Grand Uncle Horace

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I don't think their list is necessarily as bad as it seems, there's a lot of untried players or ones with limited experience.

If Voss can get them playing to a reasonable system, a lot of the guys who seem like spuds suddenly start looking like AFL standard players. The top-end talent is there, it's the rest of the list that people simply have no idea whether it's up to par or not.

Fair points. However there have been enough games from Plowman, Setterfield, McGovern, Martin, Dow, Kennedy et al to note they are below average AFL players. The Blues were brilliant in getting something from WCE for SPS, who in many ways typified a long period of poor drafting.

Everyone loves Crippa but the combination of injury and changing game systems means he is a shadow of himself. The Don's Heppel is slow as a wet week but has been able to adapt and provide value and leadership. He does not have to be hidden when the ball is in transition. I cannot see Cripps adapting to a role - he is a bit like JPK (bloods), Mitchell (hawks) Selwood (cats) where all these guys run in treacle boots.
 

owen87

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Fair points. However there have been enough games from Plowman, Setterfield, McGovern, Martin, Dow, Kennedy et al to note they are below average AFL players. The Blues were brilliant in getting something from WCE for SPS, who in many ways typified a long period of poor drafting.

Everyone loves Crippa but the combination of injury and changing game systems means he is a shadow of himself. The Don's Heppel is slow as a wet week but has been able to adapt and provide value and leadership. He does not have to be hidden when the ball is in transition. I cannot see Cripps adapting to a role - he is a bit like JPK (bloods), Mitchell (hawks) Selwood (cats) where all these guys run in treacle boots.

Cripps is elite at one thing, Teague seemed to be trying to make him do other things, Voss may well return him to doing that one thing he's elite at instead of trying to make him be more.

Setterfield & Kennedy have both done good things at AFL level in the middle, but if you add Cripps to that group, they're a bit samey in that they're all slower, bigger bodied, clearance players. Walsh & Cerra add the class, Dow has the athletic profile to do <something> but hasn't really shown it regularly at AFL level, and Hewett is a genuine team-oriented grunt player to replace Ed Curnow.

McGovern & Martin both have potential in a good system IMO, albeit McGovern is well overpaid.

Heppell started off the half-back line so it wasn't entirely foreign to him to go back there, especially given the rest of the backline is inexperienced these days it made a lot of sense.

Carlton has a couple of top-tier KPFs in McKay and Weitering, some high quality mids in Walsh, Cerra & Cripps (if fit) and some very good attacking back-line options with Saad, Williams & Newman.

If Curnow can stay fit, if Hewett & Cerra can balance their midfield, if some of the untried youngsters can contribute and if Voss can implement a solid, functional system, there's no reason they shouldn't be playing finals this year as long as their top-liners continue on doing what they've been doing.
 

RobR

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Fair points. However there have been enough games from Plowman, Setterfield, McGovern, Martin, Dow, Kennedy et al to note they are below average AFL players. The Blues were brilliant in getting something from WCE for SPS, who in many ways typified a long period of poor drafting.

Everyone loves Crippa but the combination of injury and changing game systems means he is a shadow of himself. The Don's Heppel is slow as a wet week but has been able to adapt and provide value and leadership. He does not have to be hidden when the ball is in transition. I cannot see Cripps adapting to a role - he is a bit like JPK (bloods), Mitchell (hawks) Selwood (cats) where all these guys run in treacle boots.
We start winning more games those players you mentioned don't have to be star players, they just need to play a role.
 

Grand Uncle Horace

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Cripps is elite at one thing, Teague seemed to be trying to make him do other things, Voss may well return him to doing that one thing he's elite at instead of trying to make him be more.

Setterfield & Kennedy have both done good things at AFL level in the middle, but if you add Cripps to that group, they're a bit samey in that they're all slower, bigger bodied, clearance players. Walsh & Cerra add the class, Dow has the athletic profile to do <something> but hasn't really shown it regularly at AFL level, and Hewett is a genuine team-oriented grunt player to replace Ed Curnow.

McGovern & Martin both have potential in a good system IMO, albeit McGovern is well overpaid.

Heppell started off the half-back line so it wasn't entirely foreign to him to go back there, especially given the rest of the backline is inexperienced these days it made a lot of sense.

Carlton has a couple of top-tier KPFs in McKay and Weitering, some high quality mids in Walsh, Cerra & Cripps (if fit) and some very good attacking back-line options with Saad, Williams & Newman.

If Curnow can stay fit, if Hewett & Cerra can balance their midfield, if some of the untried youngsters can contribute and if Voss can implement a solid, functional system, there's no reason they shouldn't be playing finals this year as long as their top-liners continue on doing what they've been doing.

Thanks for all that. I too think Cerra and initially Hewett will help make the Blues midfield competitive. The game has arguably passed clearance beasts like Crippa by. He does one thing well when he is fit which the poor guy has not been up to for some time.

I expect when he plays he will only spend a max 2/3rds of the game on the ground and will be subbed on for cba's. (like JPK this entering NicNat territory of a special team's role). There is no way Voss will tolerate having other slow pokes like Kennedy. I reckon there is only room for one special team's player.
 

B4Bear

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Thanks for all that. I too think Cerra and initially Hewett will help make the Blues midfield competitive. The game has arguably passed clearance beasts like Crippa by. He does one thing well when he is fit which the poor guy has not been up to for some time.

I expect when he plays he will only spend a max 2/3rds of the game on the ground and will be subbed on for cba's. (like JPK this entering NicNat territory of a special team's role). There is no way Voss will tolerate having other slow pokes like Kennedy. I reckon there is only room for one special team's player.

Is Cerra destined to be the great white hope, just as Judd was supposed to be?

Carlton's messiah fixes from players (Judd) to coaches (Malthouse) and a slew of other decisions over the last 20 years have done nothing but ruin them. Hope for Voss's sake that this has changed.
 

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Grand Uncle Horace

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Is Cerra destined to be the great white hope, just as Judd was supposed to be?

Carlton's messiah fixes from players (Judd) to coaches (Malthouse) and a slew of other decisions over the last 20 years have done nothing but ruin them. Hope for Voss's sake that this has changed.

No. He is still just a very promising kid who needs another season or so to shine IMO.

To be fair I do not think any Blues poster has repeated the doomed messiah complex.
 

owen87

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Is Cerra destined to be the great white hope, just as Judd was supposed to be?

Carlton's messiah fixes from players (Judd) to coaches (Malthouse) and a slew of other decisions over the last 20 years have done nothing but ruin them. Hope for Voss's sake that this has changed.

I'm not sure what the internal expectations from Carlton supporters of Cerra are, but I think he'll be a good player for them. He's a good user of the ball and complements a guy like Cripps neatly, Hewett also works well alongside him.
 

FlowersByIrene

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The only place Essendon is 'bolting' in 2022 is down to the bottom of the ladder. 2021 was an absolute 'dead cat bounce' from the Donnies.

No key forwards, no decent key backs. Essendon supporters will be in for a shock.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Fair points. However there have been enough games from Plowman, Setterfield, McGovern, Martin, Dow, Kennedy et al to note they are below average AFL players. The Blues were brilliant in getting something from WCE for SPS, who in many ways typified a long period of poor drafting.

Everyone loves Crippa but the combination of injury and changing game systems means he is a shadow of himself. The Don's Heppel is slow as a wet week but has been able to adapt and provide value and leadership. He does not have to be hidden when the ball is in transition. I cannot see Cripps adapting to a role - he is a bit like JPK (bloods), Mitchell (hawks) Selwood (cats) where all these guys run in treacle boots.
There are plenty of premiership players who have been a lot worse or no better then Martin, McGovern and Plowman.
I’m not much of a fan of Dow but he played last season as a 21 year old with a weak body. He is a brilliant clearance player who is a poor runner so age and conditioning will help him greatly. He probably has more upside then most. In saying that if he doesn’t improve his defensive game he can pack his bags at the end of the season.
 

owen87

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The only place Essendon is 'bolting' in 2022 is down to the bottom of the ladder. 2021 was an absolute 'dead cat bounce' from the Donnies.

No key forwards, no decent key backs. Essendon supporters will be in for a shock.

Looking Good Its Always Sunny GIF by It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
 

Bjchan13

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Jesus who compared Wright to Curnow? That's a big yikes.
I did, just comparing stats at this stage of their careers as they are both 25 for the 2022 season. They are similiar although there's obviously a very good chance Charlie would be a superstar by now without the knee injury.
 

Freomaniac

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You still don't get it, it isn't about whether a player/team can or can't tackle, it's not an inability. it's about certain structures/setups that enable higher effective numbers
I am also seeing this in a neutral view too.

I agree with the structure and set up.

But there are also other factors too.

One factor is developing the kids. Some of Those 19-21 year olds have to improve gradually.

Another factor is your best available 23. Specifically that bottom 6 to 8 players in the squad that is rotated.

Im gonna get laughed at for this. Bit in a way carltons list is similar to Richmond, in which the core 4-6 players are good.

Weitering, McKay, Cripps and Dow are good players.

But saying that, if Carltons bottom 6 to 8 players are consistent, they will win close games.

Saying that..... Its been a long rebuild at carlton. As i said, it will be common for certain sides to spend 5-6years in a row of not playing finals. Even then those 18-20 year olds in year one are 24-26 year olds 6 years in.

I have said Brendon Bolton wasnt a bad coach. He was at Carlton at the worst possible time taking Mick Malthouse.

Bolton had to play a lot of 18-20 year olds.

Teague wasnt a great coach but he isn't the worst of all time either. But his squad was a bunch of 22-24 year olds that started under Bolton. Not to mention a few 18-20 year olds he had to develop too.

I can see why Carlton expects some progress and improvements under Voss. Partially due to his development of younger players at Port... Not to mention to work a good structure like he did at Port too.
 

Freomaniac

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Let's look at those facts prior to this year

Flag winners and where they ranked for tackles

2013 Hawks 8th
2014 Hawks 16th
2015 Hawks 10th
2016 Dogs 12th
2017 Tigers 7th
2018 Eagles 15th
2019 Tigers 11th
2020 Tigers 8th

So your statement was that higher tackles were critical and a function on a better gameplan

Does that mean these sides should not have won the flag and had a bad gameplan?
Freo were solid against most teams from 2013-5, except vs the hawks.

Hawks always killed freo on games between 2013-15 for 2 reasons.

1. Due to accurate kicks around the ground and in the Forward 50.

2. Partially due to reason one. Good kicks to their forwards in the forward 50. Which lead to accurate shots at goal. Such as the 2015 preliminary final where Hawks won 15.4.94 to freos 10.7.67.

Hawks didnt miss one shot that night. All 4 behinds were rushed.
 

WalshistheGOAT

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I am also seeing this in a neutral view too.

I agree with the structure and set up.

But there are also other factors too.

One factor is developing the kids. Some of Those 19-21 year olds have to improve gradually.

Another factor is your best available 23. Specifically that bottom 6 to 8 players in the squad that is rotated.

Im gonna get laughed at for this. Bit in a way carltons list is similar to Richmond, in which the core 4-6 players are good.

Weitering, McKay, Cripps and Dow are good players.

But saying that, if Carltons bottom 6 to 8 players are consistent, they will win close games.

Saying that..... Its been a long rebuild at carlton. As i said, it will be common for certain sides to spend 5-6years in a row of not playing finals. Even then those 18-20 year olds in year one are 24-26 year olds 6 years in.

I have said Brendon Bolton wasnt a bad coach. He was at Carlton at the worst possible time taking Mick Malthouse.

Bolton had to play a lot of 18-20 year olds.

Teague wasnt a great coach but he isn't the worst of all time either. But his squad was a bunch of 22-24 year olds that started under Bolton. Not to mention a few 18-20 year olds he had to develop too.

I can see why Carlton expects some progress and improvements under Voss. Partially due to his development of younger players at Port... Not to mention to work a good structure like he did at Port too.
Its funny you mention Dow as a good player as a Freo fan, im sure theres Saints fans who reckon Obrien is quality, Dogs fans who like Fisher and Hawks fans who like Stocker. They all have the occasional good game which highlights the reason they were such high picks and oppo fans remember them but none of them have ever put things together consistently to become reliable players.

If Dow, Obrien, Kemp, Stocker, Fisher, Carroll and the likes all go from C graders to B and B+ consistent players I see us making top 8 quite easily.

Unfortunately thats like betting on cock fights. It is impossible to know what the hell is going to happen with any of them, all have huge ceilings as players. They just never come close to being regular contributors.


Any team with a core of Walsh, Weitering, Mckay, Cripps, Curnow, Docherty, Saad and Cerra firing on all cylinders really would be an embarrassment if they couldnt crack the top 8.

When compared to Essendon

Parish, Merrett, Stringer, Tippa, Sheil*, Ridley, Mcgrath, Hind
Walsh, Cripps, Curnow, Mckay, Docherty*, Weitering, Cerra, Saad

Id say across the board at their best Blues top 8 is better than the bombers aside from Stringer. But I like a lot of the bombers role players a lot more than the Blues and Jake Kelly coming in to free up Ridley may take Ridley to the next level into a genuine elite player.

Cripps is and Curnow are the big question marks for the Blues and would close the gap in two major deficiencies in our list - Clearances and scoring.
 

Freomaniac

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Probably deserves another thread - but personally I feel coaches are generally over-rated in evaluating the success of the club.
Voss at Brisbane running under 40% win/loss - not highly regarded on his performance then, but could well be better second time around. He has a decent mid rung list capable of making finals, so he's not starting at ground zero which will help.
Well i am surprised Ross Lyon isn't mentioned lol.

But seriously as you said, Michael Voss is coaching the blues and not coaching at ground Zero. Carlton has not played finals in the last 8 or 9 seasons and should have some solid 24-27 year olds.

Saints didn't make finals between 2012-19. Thats 8 years too. So that saints 2020 finals squad has a few players with 6-8 years of development or a bunch of 24-26 year olds
Didn’t have the experienced talent to implement his game plan.
True. As I said, freo did ok vs most sides from 2013-15, except vs the hawks.

Hawthorn always killed freo in 2013-5 period with accurate kicking on the field and Infront of goal. Most of them were in that 27-30 year old age range too.

Once those guys retired, they were replaced with kids.
 

The_MCG

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Despite being a confirmed basket case and handicapped by a coach with the tactical acuity of a house plant Carlton have rattled the Bombers in recent times.

I'm sure the Bombers will come out bravely and give a good account of themselves in quarter 1 but if past holds true it could be another bleak evening coming up for Essendon supporters.

Teague was limited in so many ways. This is just one of them.
Really excited to see how Carlton will play under Voss.