Opinion Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

[Malifice]

Then we have Carlton who were absolutely destroyed by North. Their much touted midfield were beyond bad, soft even.

Dude, our midfield was our worst area last year. It was a 21 year old Walsh, Cripps (who is easily run off, even at his best) and then... Dow, Ed Curnow and Matt Kennedy.

That's why we went hard at Cerra and Hewitt.

 

[Yoda_]

So Essendon players can go to the next level, but not Carlton players. I guess you can back this up with evidence

Do you also have evidence that Essendon players can maintain said form, given you went backward from 2019 to 2020

The players I have referred to are the reason we went from what many predicted to be a bottom 4 team to be playing finals. If we can continue to see that group of 6 - 8 guys and see an increase in output from the next generation of players (1st - 3rd year guys) then we could very well go from an 8th - 12th team and push the top 4. Do I think it will happen in 2022? Probably not but I would love to see it.

When we see an improvement in like Will Setterfield, Matt Kennedy, Tom Williamson, Lochie Fogarty etc. then Carlton could very well take that next step. As of right now, I don't think many are tipping this to happen. Essendon saw a small handful of guys who had career best years hence the overachievement in many peoples eyes.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The players I have referred to are the reason we went from what many predicted to be a bottom 4 team to be playing finals. If we can continue to see that group of 6 - 8 guys and see an increase in output from the next generation of players (1st - 3rd year guys) then we could very well go from an 8th - 12th team and push the top 4. Do I think it will happen in 2022? Probably not but I would love to see it.

When we see an improvement in like Will Setterfield, Matt Kennedy, Tom Williamson, Lochie Fogarty etc. then Carlton could very well take that next step. As of right now, I don't think many are tipping this to happen. Essendon saw a small handful of guys who had career best years hence the overachievement in many peoples eyes.

It’s been said 100 times but again outside of maybe Curnow, Doc and Saad every single player on Carlton’s list you would expect to improve simply because of age or they were injured last season. Jones is the only big loss and Cerra and Hewitt improve us in our biggest area of need. That and a hopeful improvement in game style is why Carlton supporters expect to improve.

 

[Ambrosia]

Essendon forward line next year has a lot of unknowns after Hooker anchored it for much of 2021 although he was phased out by the end of the year.

Wright - I’m confident he can hit the scoreboard but without Hooker there he needs to be a consistent physical presence.

Jones - Really promising debut season but two foot injuries in as many years is a big concern

Tippa - Probably the one I’m most concerned about given it’s a mental health problem.

Who fills the 3rd tall role? Francis probably gets first crack who has never played a full season and has his own battle with mental health.

 

[Yoda_]

It’s been said 100 times but again outside of maybe Curnow, Doc and Saad every single player on Carlton’s list you would expect to improve simply because of age or they were injured last season. Jones is the only big loss and Cerra and Hewitt improve us in our biggest area of need. That and a hopeful improvement in game style is why Carlton supporters expect to improve.

What area was the biggest concern for Carlton last year? The midfield has obviously had depth improved with the acquisitions of Cerra and Hewitt. How well do the other areas of concern for Carlton improve? The forward and back lines still appear very fragile despite housing some of the best KPP's in the competition. Who steps up to be the #2 forward with Eddie now retired?

Any ideas on what type of game plan Voss is set to implement ?

 

[Yoda_]

Essendon forward line next year has a lot of unknowns after Hooker anchored it for much of 2021 although he was phased out by the end of the year.

Wright - I’m confident he can hit the scoreboard but without Hooker there he needs to be a consistent physical presence.

Jones - Really promising debut season but two foot injuries in as many years is a big concern

Tippa - Probably the one I’m most concerned about given it’s a mental health problem.

Who fills the 3rd tall role? Francis probably gets first crack who has never played a full season and has his own battle with mental health.

Probably the biggest area of concern for mine is how the forward line functions this year. Our top 5 goal kickers were Stringer (41 goals), Tippa (34), Hooker (33), Wright (29), Jones (20).

Do we play Stringer more forward and hope for a similar output? Do we see an improvement in Wright? Can Jones improve his output? Tippa missing is by far the biggest concern. I really hope he can get back because outside he, we don't really have an impactful small forward who hits the scoreboard consistently.

 

[awesome wells]

Essendon > Carlton, and I hate Essendon

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

What area was the biggest concern for Carlton last year? The midfield has obviously had depth improved with the acquisitions of Cerra and Hewitt. How well do the other areas of concern for Carlton improve? The forward and back lines still appear very fragile despite housing some of the best KPP's in the competition. Who steps up to be the #2 forward with Eddie now retired?

Any ideas on what type of game plan Voss is set to implement ?

The forward line got about 20 games out of Curnow, Fisher and Martin last season so that’s where the improvement should come from. Half of our forward line was injured pretty much all season. Harry should also improve.

Jones is a massive loss and game style is the only thing that will improve the backline in any substantial way imo. Williams will be playing back there this season you would imagine and Kemp is possibly someone who might “break out” back there.

I imagine Voss will put a huge emphasis on defensive pressure from our midfield group and HF’s and probably offer an extra number behind the ball more often. Stopping simple transition of play on our turnovers will be the biggest key and those two things will go a long way to doing that.

 

[Yoda_]

The forward line got about 20 games out of Curnow, Fisher and Martin last season so that’s where the improvement should come from. Half of our forward line was injured pretty much all season. Harry should also improve.

Jones is a massive loss and game style is the only thing that will improve the backline in any substantial way imo. Williams will be playing back there this season you would imagine and Kemp is possibly someone who might “break out” back there.

I imagine Voss will put a huge emphasis on defensive pressure from our midfield group and HF’s and probably offer an extra number behind the ball more often. Stopping simple transition of play on our turnovers will be the biggest key and those two things will go a long way to doing that.

Is Curnow the most important acquisition for Carlton in 2022 ?

 

[JustaBattler]

Is Curnow the most important acquisition for Carlton in 2022 ?

Charlie will demand close marking by at least one KPD - which means Harry will have one less to worry about and if there are teams with two decent KPD - then those same teams can start thinking about covering a fit McGovern and Martin as well. Carlton will have finals quality finals firepower ...

The midfield has been improved by Cerra and Hewett - but Cuningham will also be a major in - coming back from an ACL. I think the major difference in midfield will actually be a smarter set of coaches who might introduce Carlton to 21st century midfield set ups - they have the cattle to do that if nothing else.

TDK has added a lot of 'size' to his height this pre-season - a natural outcome of growth in young players- the same can be said of players non Carlton supporters know nothing about in Carroll/Honey/Philp - all three will be pushing fringe players like Dow/Fisher/Lob for starting spots - there is enough 'depth' now at Carlton to introduce genuine competition for spots - and there is enough resourcing to take player development seriously as Carlton now is entering its second year with it own VFL team.

Down back we replace an athletic spoiler in Jones with a genuine KPD sized Young - which will see Weitering 'freed up' to play more his natural intercept and set up game - something he gave up for the make it up as you go approach Jones brought to each game.

Who knows how well Marchbank or Docherty come back - but Carlton supporters are happy with Stocker and Kemp as developing defenders - supporting a couple of plodders in Saad and Williams.

Even the most cynical have to admit that (finally) Carlton has if nothing else - established both off-field and on-field competitive capability.

However - every Club is trying to do the same thing every year as well - so we will see. No doubt supporters are looking with good reason for better on-field performance and results over the coming years - Essendon will be one team that should show continual improvement as well - what that means in terms of relative performances - we will see.

 

[Arr0w]

The players I have referred to are the reason we went from what many predicted to be a bottom 4 team to be playing finals. If we can continue to see that group of 6 - 8 guys and see an increase in output from the next generation of players (1st - 3rd year guys) then we could very well go from an 8th - 12th team and push the top 4. Do I think it will happen in 2022? Probably not but I would love to see it.

When we see an improvement in like Will Setterfield, Matt Kennedy, Tom Williamson, Lochie Fogarty etc. then Carlton could very well take that next step. As of right now, I don't think many are tipping this to happen. Essendon saw a small handful of guys who had career best years hence the overachievement in many peoples eyes.

Guys like Setterfield, Williamson Fogarty aren't considered best 22 at this stage, nor in the next 4-6 players, (my view only). Sure, if some or all come on, it adds more competition for spots, but if they don't come on, it won't really impact what our output should be with the totality of the list.

Player form fluctuates for these types and essentially they are interchangeable depending on form. What was considered your best 22 start to end of last year changed considerably and it will each year

 

[Benga]

Guys like Setterfield, Williamson Fogarty aren't considered best 22 at this stage, nor in the next 4-6 players, (my view only). Sure, if some or all come on, it adds more competition for spots, but if they don't come on, it won't really impact what our output should be with the totality of the list.

Player form fluctuates for these types and essentially they are interchangeable depending on form. What was considered your best 22 start to end of last year changed considerably and it will each year

Was going to say the same thing. If Carlton are to take the next step, part of that reason will be that next tier down improving their output. But that’s not the next tier. It’s going to come from players like Kemp, Stocker, Cuningham, honey, fisher. Even Dow, marchbank and Carrol in some respects.

 

[Benga]

What area was the biggest concern for Carlton last year? The midfield has obviously had depth improved with the acquisitions of Cerra and Hewitt. How well do the other areas of concern for Carlton improve? The forward and back lines still appear very fragile despite housing some of the best KPP's in the competition. Who steps up to be the #2 forward with Eddie now retired?

Any ideas on what type of game plan Voss is set to implement ?

McGovern - McKay - cuningham
Martin - Curnow - fisher

Silvagni/resting ruck (De Konning) at times

That’s more or less our first picked forward line.

Together they could have potentially played a total of 176 games.

in 2021 they played 81 games. That’s a huge lack of continuity.

I’d say that keeping them fit/having a bit of luck is a great cause for concern.

Along with that, big question for me is how our tall defenders go without Jones. Young is somewhat unproven. Our depth in that area is virtually non existent. McDonald is break glass type and marchbank and McGovern aren’t true key defenders.

Feel our midfield has been addressed.

Our rucks, I view as in a similar boat to Essendon. De koning is going to be great, but not quite there yet (similar to Draper). Pittonet similar to Phillips in that he’s serviceable but not first choice. I personally don’t feel like having a fantastic ruck division is all that necessary in any case.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Is Curnow the most important acquisition for Carlton in 2022 ?

For me it’s Cerra

 

[Ambrosia]

McGovern - McKay - cuningham
Martin - Curnow - fisher

Silvagni/resting ruck (De Konning) at times

That’s more or less our first picked forward line.

Together they could have potentially played a total of 176 games.

in 2021 they played 81 games. That’s a huge lack of continuity.

I’d say that keeping them fit/having a bit of luck is a great cause for concern.

Along with that, big question for me is how our tall defenders go without Jones. Young is somewhat unproven. Our depth in that area is virtually non existent. McDonald is break glass type and marchbank and McGovern aren’t true key defenders.

Feel our midfield has been addressed.

Our rucks, I view as in a similar boat to Essendon. De koning is going to be great, but not quite there yet (similar to Draper). Pittonet similar to Phillips in that he’s serviceable but not first choice. I personally don’t feel like having a fantastic ruck division is all that necessary in any case.

I thought McGovern was being moved back this year? He almost has to looking at your other options unless Kemp is the 3rd tall defender?

The whole Carlton backline outside of Weitering looks pretty shaky to me.

Saad, Williams and Stocker is 3 guys under 185cm none of them particularly strong overhead. Plowman has height but I think he does better on smalls so that leaves Kemp, McGovern, Marchbank, Young and McDonald as tall defender options of which none look very inspiring.

It’s very much wait and see given Essendon had similar issues going into 2021

 

[Ari]

Surprised Carlton are so close to Essendon on this list. Last year Essendon showed a lot more than the Blues.

That said, Bombers still cannot put a finals game together and until they can, can't be considered near close to contenders.

 

[Benga]

I thought McGovern was being moved back this year? He almost has to looking at your other options unless Kemp is the 3rd tall defender?

The whole Carlton backline outside of Weitering looks pretty shaky to me.

Saad, Williams and Stocker is 3 guys under 185cm none of them particularly strong overhead. Plowman has height but I think he does better on smalls so that leaves Kemp, McGovern, Marchbank, Young and McDonald as tall defender options of which none look very inspiring.

It’s very much wait and see given Essendon had similar issues going into 2021

It sounds as though he will be yes, but I was more highlighting our problems in 2021.

Personally, I’d like to see how he goes as a genuine 3rd/4th tall with McKay, Curnow and Silvagni. It’s how he was used at Adelaide and I think suits him more than how he has been used (out of necessity) at Carlton.

How we structure defensively will change from week to week depending on the opposition imo.
I’d like to see us line up like the following:

Marchbank Weitering Stocker/Plowman
Saad Young Kemp

Williams rotating between the HBF and on ball/wing

It’s been that long since Marchbank has played, there are some genuine question marks there. However, people have also forgotten (including Carlton supporters) just how good he was.

The other question mark is how young Kemp, Stocker and Young are. And it’s a fair question. But the former two could not be more highly rated internally. A lot will rest on them, Kemp and Stocker I’m not so worried about. Young, however I’m not so sure.

Its going to interesting at the very least.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Why do you expect Carlton to improve? I’ve not seen a straight up answer why Carlton will improve. So please, enlighten us all or can we expect another bottom 6 finish?


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I think these things have been answered and mentioned numerous times across numerous Carlton threads, which all end up in circular arguments from the same people.
But just to put them all in one spot, as I see it, in the hopes that the record stops skipping...

The addition of a 2nd genuine tall forward option, in the return of Charlie Curnow, next to a now Coleman medalist.
The addition of some midfield class, in Cerra, who supposedly had one of the best inside 50 to mark conversion rates in the league.
The addition of a team first defensive and more balanced gameplan, which was apparently never really a consideration for Teague, and the addition of a workhorse type player like Hewett who runs both ways to help implement that.
Hopefully, the return to fitness of Cripps.
The expectation that Williams, McGovern and Martin should be able to return to previously shown form.
The hopeful continued improvement and/or ability to cement a spot as best 22 for players like Silvagni, Dow, Kennedy, O'Brien, TDK, Stocker, Fisher, Setterfield.
The hopeful emergence of some more young talent like Carroll, Durdin, Kemp, Honey, Motlop, Young.
The hopeful returns from longterm injuries for Doc, Marchy, Newman.
More clearly defined roles for players and hopefully moving away from persisting with playing guys out of position when it obviously doesn't work.
Another year of continuity for the core of the main group playing together.

Obviously not all of that will happen, but there's plenty of avenues for where the improvement can come from.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Heading into the new season, I rate the depth of the Dons' list over the Blues. Neither will prove much chop, but that is ok.

The Dons' young players are way ahead of the Blues youngsters. After years of SOS trade profligacy and draft stupidity, a big purge is required at Carlton. The Bombers' list is better placed with even Dodo being able to pin the tail on the draft donkey and eschew buying their way into relevance.

 

[Arr0w]

Heading into the new season, I rate the depth of the Dons' list over the Blues. Neither will prove much chop, but that is ok.

The Dons' young players are way ahead of the Blues youngsters. After years of SOS trade profligacy and draft stupidity, a big purge is required at Carlton. The Bombers' list is better placed with even Dodo being able to pin the tail on the draft donkey and eschew buying their way into relevance.

List changes are nothing unusual, over the last 3 years Swan, Essendon, Carlton have made 30+ list changes. Sides average around 9 a year

We don't need a purge, it's natural attrition

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

List changes are nothing unusual, over the last 3 years Swan, Essendon, Carlton have made 30+ list changes. Sides average around 9 a year

We don't need a purge, it's natural attrition

meh... imo a pity my mob did not excise a few more.

Thankfully we only gave a one year extension to the jpk dino. Carlton gave six to Cripps and agreed to draft Cripps Minor.

 

[Arr0w]

meh... imo a pity my mob did not excise a few more.

Thankfully we only gave a one year extension to the jpk dino. Carlton gave six to Cripps and agreed to draft Cripps Minor.

Contract tenure and the amount of money over that period are 2 different beasts, plus JPK is considerably older

Josh Cripps is only a train on player at this stage

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Contract tenure and the amount of money over that period are 2 different beasts, plus JPK is considerably older

Josh Cripps is only a train on player at this stage

Looks horribly like a Tippett deal to me.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Contract tenure and the amount of money over that period are 2 different beasts, plus JPK is considerably older

Josh Cripps is only a train on player at this stage

I know and that is my point.

 

[Yoda_]

Was going to say the same thing. If Carlton are to take the next step, part of that reason will be that next tier down improving their output. But that’s not the next tier. It’s going to come from players like Kemp, Stocker, Cuningham, honey, fisher. Even Dow, marchbank and Carrol in some respects.

That's just natural development though ?

I think these things have been answered and mentioned numerous times across numerous Carlton threads, which all end up in circular arguments from the same people.
But just to put them all in one spot, as I see it, in the hopes that the record stops skipping...

The addition of a 2nd genuine tall forward option, in the return of Charlie Curnow, next to a now Coleman medalist.
The addition of some midfield class, in Cerra, who supposedly had one of the best inside 50 to mark conversion rates in the league.
The addition of a team first defensive and more balanced gameplan, which was apparently never really a consideration for Teague, and the addition of a workhorse type player like Hewett who runs both ways to help implement that.
Hopefully, the return to fitness of Cripps.
The expectation that Williams, McGovern and Martin should be able to return to previously shown form.
The hopeful continued improvement and/or ability to cement a spot as best 22 for players like Silvagni, Dow, Kennedy, O'Brien, TDK, Stocker, Fisher, Setterfield.
The hopeful emergence of some more young talent like Carroll, Durdin, Kemp, Honey, Motlop, Young.
The hopeful returns from longterm injuries for Doc, Marchy, Newman.
More clearly defined roles for players and hopefully moving away from persisting with playing guys out of position when it obviously doesn't work.
Another year of continuity for the core of the main group playing together.

Obviously not all of that will happen, but there's plenty of avenues for where the improvement can come from.

This was the type of answer I was after Arr0w. Great response Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods


I hope you are right, Essendon had very similar questions last year with similar players. We lucked out with so much going right that saw us well and truly exceed expectation.