Will this be the Greatest Fast Bowling Quartet Ever

[PhatBoy]

It's no wonder cricket helmets became a thing

This. And it doesn't factor in others like Patrick Patterson or Kenny Benjamin who weren't necessarily that good (still reasonable - Benjamin took 400 at 23 in FC crickey) but were borderline psychotic and compensated for their lesser skill by bouncing the s**t out of everyone.

Benjamin's wiki page talks about how he coached England rugby player Will Greenwood in high school. Apparently if you mucked about, he'd bowl bouncers at you off the short run!

 

[Hellgood]

Nice article on the fear factor and mystique of Clarke.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/c...vester-clarke-cricket-fast-bowler-west-indies

 

[PhatBoy]

Nice article on the fear factor and mystique of Clarke.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/c...vester-clarke-cricket-fast-bowler-west-indies

Good read.
Patterson, and I've mentioned this in here before, had a similar sort of mystique about him. He wanted to scare batsmen. And everything about him was accordingly scary.

That's one reason the current Australian quartet - that hasn't even played together and may never do so - at the very least won't create the same sort of fear factor.

For starters, what sort of half decent batsman wouldn't face, say, Mitchell Starc without an attitude of 'ok, he's quick and has some tools but I can really cash in here if I get set.'

None of those West Indies bowlers would offer the same sort of opportunities. Hazlewood is a gun bowler IMO but there's no fear factor there.
Cummins is the one who could legitimately be a physical danger but he would need Pattinson's anger IMO to genuinely be a constant intimidating threat. Clearly he can bowl a ripping bouncer but I don't see menace in him. Pattinson has it.

 

[roscreasl98]

Ian Chappell rates Andy Roberts and John Snow as the two best fast bowlers he faced at test level.

That's enough for me.
Chappelli was a great and a courageous batsmen.....

 

[4#Didak#4]

Good read.
Patterson, and I've mentioned this in here before, had a similar sort of mystique about him. He wanted to scare batsmen. And everything about him was accordingly scary.

That's one reason the current Australian quartet - that hasn't even played together and may never do so - at the very least won't create the same sort of fear factor.

For starters, what sort of half decent batsman wouldn't face, say, Mitchell Starc without an attitude of 'ok, he's quick and has some tools but I can really cash in here if I get set.'

None of those West Indies bowlers would offer the same sort of opportunities. Hazlewood is a gun bowler IMO but there's no fear factor there.
Cummins is the one who could legitimately be a physical danger but he would need Pattinson's anger IMO to genuinely be a constant intimidating threat. Clearly he can bowl a ripping bouncer but I don't see menace in him. Pattinson has it.

Unfortunately the fear factor of fast bowlers got largely neutered by the bouncer rule. Batsmen now know that its not possible for a bowler to bounce them at any time in an over. Its no longer a weapon of intimidation simply a surprise tactic.

No bowlers are allowed to do what the Windies of the 80s did and Lillee & Thomson in the 70s. The only bowler of recent times that has been able to genuinely intimidate was Mitchell Johnson, even then the best batsmen could take him for a lot of runs.

I think Cummins can have a similar impact to Johnson if used in burst spells like Johnson was in the Ashes whitewash. We saw glimpses of terror from the indians and that was on terrible wickets and he was bowling long gruelling spells.

I would open with Pattinson who does bring aggression and climbing bounce, he will hit the seam hard and have them hopping especially on Aussie decks. At the other end Hazlewood is there to build pressure and provide some long economical spells, he is as close as we will get to a McGrath but still a way off that quality. Starc brings a differnet angle being a lefty can swing it and be a wicket taker. We have to be careful we don't burn him out (like we just did). He is best with short spells as well and can use the reversing ball better than anyone, so bring him on when the ball become older.

What was great about the Windies of old was there was never any let up for the batsmen. One goes off the next comes on just as good but different. They were never over bowled as they didn't need to be. It meant they could come on and go 100% not worrying that they need to carry the attack across 5 days. We have seen it time & time again where we torture our best bowlers, they fade and lose their edge and then get injured. Bringing 4 great quality quicks in will lift all their games to another level. We just need to invest in a lot more cotton wool.

 

[PhatBoy]

Unfortunately the fear factor of fast bowlers got largely neutered by the bouncer rule. Batsmen now know that its not possible for a bowler to bounce them at any time in an over. Its no longer a weapon of intimidation simply a surprise tactic.

No bowlers are allowed to do what the Windies of the 80s did and Lillee & Thomson in the 70s. The only bowler of recent times that has been able to genuinely intimidate was Mitchell Johnson, even then the best batsmen could take him for a lot of runs.

I think Cummins can have a similar impact to Johnson if used in burst spells like Johnson was in the Ashes whitewash. We saw glimpses of terror from the indians and that was on terrible wickets and he was bowling long gruelling spells.

I would open with Pattinson who does bring aggression and climbing bounce, he will hit the seam hard and have them hopping especially on Aussie decks. At the other end Hazlewood is there to build pressure and provide some long economical spells, he is as close as we will get to a McGrath but still a way off that quality. Starc brings a differnet angle being a lefty can swing it and be a wicket taker. We have to be careful we don't burn him out (like we just did). He is best with short spells as well and can use the reversing ball better than anyone, so bring him on when the ball become older.

What was great about the Windies of old was there was never any let up for the batsmen. One goes off the next comes on just as good but different. They were never over bowled as they didn't need to be. It meant they could come on and go 100% not worrying that they need to carry the attack across 5 days. We have seen it time & time again where we torture our best bowlers, they fade and lose their edge and then get injured. Bringing 4 great quality quicks in will lift all their games to another level. We just need to invest in a lot more cotton wool.

Steyn did for a while. There was a series against New Zealand that not many Aussies would have watched where he rearranged Craig Cumming's face. He was genuinely scary in that series and you could see it in the batsmen thereafter.



There's a bunch of other videos in the related content - one of him smacking Ganguly in the head, one of him smashing Kane Williamson's box, even a GoPro video of what it's like to face a Steyn bouncer. It's brutal stuff. It's easy to forget that even in the Perth test where he busted his shoulder, he topped 150km/H. For a guy of his build it is frightening how much bounce he could get. Because of his extra skills to Johnson (don't get me wrong, Johnson was excellent but it was sporadic) I think it makes him even scarier, knowing that even if you survived the physical threat, he'd probably get you anyway.

Undoubtedly the bouncer rule has changed things but I don't really understand why some bowlers don't just concede the odd no ball in order to elicit a bit of fear. It's very rare that they get called for it - Neil Wagner is pretty relentless with his short pitched stuff at times albeit in the high 130s.

I think the Australian group used together would undoubtedly have some pretty rampant success against visiting Asian teams. It's hard to see how the current Sri Lankan team for example would cope with them. But teams like SA and England theoretically at least (Johnson at his peak proved this isn't a concrete theory) should be able to cope with them. Funnily enough I also think the West Indians, for some reason, seem to thrive a bit - in terms of run scoring at least - against quicker bowling. Their lack of exposure to quality line and length means they're routinely suspect outside off stump but as far as their shotmaking goes, they handle it reasonably well. Blackwood, Braithwaite, Bravo - they all score well against quick bowling.

 

[Gough]

Cause he played for South Australia in the 80s. That's wrong man.

My mum worked for the company that made his shirts when he played here, I've still got some photos of him with me, and my brother. To my ten year old eyes he was easily the most exotic thing I'd ever seen.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

What was great about the Windies of old was there was never any let up for the batsmen. One goes off the next comes on just as good but different. They were never over bowled as they didn't need to be. It meant they could come on and go 100% not worrying that they need to carry the attack across 5 days. We have seen it time & time again where we torture our best bowlers, they fade and lose their edge and then get injured. Bringing 4 great quality quicks in will lift all their games to another level. We just need to invest in a lot more cotton wool.

For the early part, there was no obligation to bowl 90 overs in a day, so Lloyd happily bowled 2 quicks for 6 over spells in an hour and then replaced them for 2 fresh quicks who then bowled 6 over spells for the next hour. 24 overs per session, 72 per day. That's what kept them fresh. When over rates became an issue, that's when Viv Richards used to chime in for some overs. You could never do the 4 quicks thing like the West Indies did for any length of time these days.

 

[PhatBoy]

For the early part, there was no obligation to bowl 90 overs in a day, so Lloyd happily bowled 2 quicks for 6 over spells in an hour and then replaced them for 2 fresh quicks who then bowled 6 over spells for the next hour. 24 overs per session, 72 per day. That's what kept them fresh. When over rates became an issue, that's when Viv Richards used to chime in for some overs. You could never do the 4 quicks thing like the West Indies did for any length of time these days.

You could but you'd have to sacrifice an hour. SA kind of did it when circumstances dictated it with Kallis as the fourth quick.

 

[bombersfan4000]

This. And it doesn't factor in others like Patrick Patterson or Kenny Benjamin who weren't necessarily that good (still reasonable - Benjamin took 400 at 23 in FC crickey) but were borderline psychotic and compensated for their lesser skill by bouncing the s**t out of everyone.

Benjamin's wiki page talks about how he coached England rugby player Will Greenwood in high school. Apparently if you mucked about, he'd bowl bouncers at you off the short run!

Patrick Patterson ws rated to be the quickest of all the WI bowlers. but he had several injuries as well as some disciplinary issues off field as well

 

[bombersfan4000]

There is the tantilising prospect of having Starc, Cummins, Pattinson & Hazlewood available for the upcoming summer. This is something I have been anitcipating for a very long time now. However over & over and over again injuries have taken this away and it has seemed a distant dream.

Individually each has impacted test cricket when they have had their uninjured runs. Hazlewood has become the most durable and is such a reliable consistent bowler. Starc has until recently injured had enough opportunity to become one of the highest rated fast bowlers in the world. Cummins initial debut followed 5 years by his second "debut" have been both super impressive. Pattinson has been somewhat forgotten but he played some fantastic cricket when available.

We have never really seen any more than 2 of them operate together due to injury. Hazlewood & Starc alone have become a formidable pair. However, if you throw in the firepower of Cummins & Pattinson it becomes down right scary. Each has unique attributes and brings something different which is important, all are genuine wicket takers.

If they all get on the park I believe these four will be the greatest quartet of fast bowlers since the great West Indian sides and in many ways could be better. They will be that good we will be able to afford to do what the Windies did and go in with no spin or play a guy like Maxwell just for fun. In addition to their bowling Pattinson, Cummins & Starc can all genuinely bat and score runs, they are not bunnies.

I have severe doubts their bodies will allow them, but there is a glimmer of hope there that it will happen in the first Brisbane test.

this will never happen as ling as the current high performance manager spud Pat Howard is still in his current role

 

[Gough]

Patrick Patterson ws rated to be the quickest of all the WI bowlers. but he had several injuries as well as some disciplinary issues off field as well

I remember watching him at the nets when year when you could still sit directly behind them. Patterson wasn't even bowling flat chat, and he was still terrifying to watch, let alone face.

 

[bombersfan4000]

I remember watching him at the nets when year when you could still sit directly behind them. Patterson wasn't even bowling flat chat, and he was still terrifying to watch, let alone face.

Shortly after arriving at the Norman Manley International Airport with the Leeward Islands team for their Shell Shield match against Jamaica in January 1986, captain Vivian Richards was asked if he feared the home team’s vaunted pace attack.

“Wait until you see my pace,” Richards responded with typical bravado.

The Leewards were decimated by 10 wickets on the third of the four-day match. Leading the carnage 30 years ago was Patrick Patterson, who stamped his mark that season as one of cricket’s most feared bowlers.

Patterson was the star of the Shell Shield. His heroics for Jamaica earned him a call-up to the West Indies team in their home series against England.




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The hosts won 5-0, the second time they had whitewashed England in two years. Patterson played in all Tests, taking four wickets for 73 runs in the first at Sabina.

He made a lasting impression on the Brits, including former fast bowler turned journalist Mike Selvey, who said Patterson’s intimidating delivery stride “stamped down hard enough to measure on the Richter Scale”.

One week before the Leewards match, Patterson spearheaded Jamaica’s three-wicket win over Guyana at Sabina. Roger Harper’s team were blown away in the first innings for 41, with Patterson taking seven for 24.

But the Leewards performance made bigger headlines. They had a formidable batting line-up with Richards, the West Indies captain, Luther Kelly, Richie Richardson, Enoch Lewis and Ralston Otto, backed up by the all-rounder Eldine Baptiste.

Their bowling was strong as well. Anthony Merrick, Winston Benjamin and George Ferris were fast bowlers on the verge of West Indies selection; Baptiste, a seamer, had played nine Tests for the WI.

Opening batsman Wayne Lewis was a member of the Jamaica team. He said he has never seen a bowler as fast as Patterson, especially in 1986. The Leewards batsmen must have felt the same way.

“When Richie Richardson came out (to bat) you could see the fear in his eyes. It’s like he wanted to send for a helmet but didn’t because of ego,” Lewis told the Jamaica Observer.

Patterson dismissed Richardson twice in the match. In the second innings, his four wickets also included Richards and Otto.

Lewis first encountered Patterson as a schoolboy. He made his first Sunlight Cup century for Kingston College against Patterson’s Wolmer’s.

They were teammates at Kensington in the Senior Cup. Patterson first played for Jamaica in 1983 with little distinction.

A net session with the West Indies impressed captain Clive Lloyd who helped Patterson secure a contract with his team Lancashire, in the 1985 English County Championship.

Lewis recalls a different Patrick Patterson returning for the 1986 Shell Shield.

“He was bigger, fitter. You could see the experience playing in England gave him more confidence,” said Lewis.

Patterson played 28 Tests, finishing with 93 wickets at a respectable average of 30.90. He was dropped after the West Indies tour of Australia in 1992, his last series for the Caribbean team.

He has become a recluse and is rarely seen in public. A team from the Indian Express newspaper visited Jamaica in 2013, hoping to get an interview with Patterson, but was unsuccessful.

Their feature said he had also refused visits from high-profile figures, including Richards and then Jamaica prime minister Portia Simpson Miller.

Lewis last spoke to Patterson by phone on his 54th birthday in September. He was in good spirits.

“Wi trying to get him to come out more, make him less aloof,” said Lewis.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/sport/Fast--furious--fearsome-_55818

 

[PhatBoy]

Patrick Patterson ws rated to be the quickest of all the WI bowlers. but he had several injuries as well as some disciplinary issues off field as well

Still does. He's like a ghost on his home island (I think he was Jamaican). Basically lives a transient life and I'm fairly sure he's heavily into the gear.

 

[Gough]

Still does. He's like a ghost on his home island (I think he was Jamaican). Basically lives a transient life and I'm fairly sure he's heavily into the gear.

Sylvester Clarke's alcoholism was thought to be what killed him, there are some sad stories from ex West Indian cricketers, a lot of the rebel South African tourists succumbed to addiction as well.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I don't think they were as tight on them as they are now, but still great.

They weren't although there was a period where a bouncer was a wide in ODIs, and he still bowled short balls. Amazing control to bowl short and not have one above the shoulder which didn't hit bat or batsman.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sylvester Clarke's alcoholism was thought to be what killed him, there are some sad stories from ex West Indian cricketers, a lot of the rebel South African tourists succumbed to addiction as well.

Cricinfo put together a really interesting piece about the forgotten West Indians who went on those tours. Very, very few came out of them with anything other than tragic stories.

 

[Gough]

Cricinfo put together a really interesting piece about the forgotten West Indians who went on those tours. Very, very few came out of them with anything other than tragic stories.

There's a documentary on YouTube called Branded a Rebel about those tours with interviews with Collis King, David Murray, and Franklin Stephenson.

 

[STFU Donnie]

There's a documentary on YouTube called Branded a Rebel about those tours with interviews with Collis King, David Murray, and Franklin Stephenson.

We had a thread about this earlier; David Murray in particular is doing very poorly.

 

[roscreasl98]

Sylvester Clarke's alcoholism was thought to be what killed him, there are some sad stories from ex West Indian cricketers, a lot of the rebel South African tourists succumbed to addiction as well.

Now we have SOK heading down that track, only difference is that SOK'S no good.

 

[Gough]

We had a thread about this earlier; David Murray in particular is doing very poorly.

Great footnote in that great Kim Hughes, Dennis Lillee Melbourne Test of 1981, first four dismissals in the Australian innings, and five all up, Dujon played as a batsman that game too, they're some of my earliest cricket memories. He lived in Adelaide for a while too, in Kent Town, fairly handy with his fists apparently.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

There's a documentary on YouTube called Branded a Rebel about those tours with interviews with Collis King, David Murray, and Franklin Stephenson.

Even amongst some really fantastic fielders around him, Collis King was a standout

I hope James Pattinson comes good as he is the only one of the four that has a real mad-dog look about him when he's bowling

 

[Pykie]

Windies by a fair margin, but, a lot of underselling of the Aussie quicks by some.

2-3 of them will be right up there in the wickets column by the end of their career.

Cummins and Starc aren't exactly medium pacers.

I'd like to see the Windies averages' with smaller boundaries, flatter pitches, bigger bats and fielding restrictions.

Wouldn't be nearly as flattering.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

2-3 of them will be right up there in the wickets column by the end of their career.

They will be doing well to get ONE up there with the Windies quicks. They are greats of the sport!

 

[eth-dog]

Just looking at some of Holding's achievements. Apparently in 102 ODIs (142w @ 21.36) he bowled a total of 5473 deliveries. Can you guess how many of them were wides?

Full marks if you said zero. Zero!! Unbelievable.

Well wides don't go down as a delivery.