News Willie Rioli - Provisionally Suspended

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shooshka

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No way will they lessen the penalty for "not understanding the rules". Willie's a professional athlete ffs.

Well, was :(
Let me preface this by saying I am by no means an expert here. But...

I am sure I read somewhere that the ASADA out of competition test (the substitution) wasn't/doesn't test for illicit drugs (only PEDs). The inference being that Willie thought it was an AFL test, which is the type that incurs a strike (no idea if he is on 0 strikes or 1 currently).

So whilst it may not be a good defence, there is certainly a case to be made based on this story/report that not understanding the rules is the only reason he did it (no one is going to risk a 4 year ban trying to avoid a 8-12 match ban).

Potentially though he may be able to argue that he thought it was a different test (Not sure if there is any penalty or a different penalty for avoiding an AFL test). That could be an option. Going to take someone smarter than me to work it out though!

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Folks are saying it has to have been over the reportable threshold for the news to come out but I don't think there has been any official statements about what the value of the result was, aside from positive for metabolites.
Firstly - apols for the long post.

I was curious about this too, and also curious about how long it is detectable in urine altogether. Anecdotally I have heard it is still detectable up to 30 days after usage and possibly beyond, depending on the level and frequency of use.

We know he was a Silly Willie for what he did with the Gatorade, but was he even dumber than that and used it again after the urine substitution and got pinged the second time around a few weeks later? Note that it is not immediately detectable in urinary analysis (see the article linked below). For example, He might have used it on the night of the Richmond game, then was tested the day after but it was not detectable in his urine then - or perhaps it was below a threshold amount - but he assumed it would be a positive test and hence did the urine substitution in a moment of panic. (Speculating here of course - as is everyone).

If he only consumed it once or twice before the urine substitution incident and not after, I think most could be justified in thinking that it was just a silly mistake and that he acted rashly, perhaps trying to buy some time for it to be out of his system. If he used after the Gatorade incident, in between the two tests that were taken - then that's a whole extra level of stupid.

So, I googled a little and found this article that studied the "Urinary Elimination of <THC metabolites>".
It's not the easiest read but the TL/DR is - everyone is different. Link Here

From my quick read, there are many biological (and other) factors at play. It was also a fairly small sample size but the testing conditions were very rigorous and other things were taken into consideration such as initial concentration of the metabolite, history of use, frequency of use, BMI (TCH is fat soluble) etc etc.


Have a read and draw your own conclusions, but IMO - given that we know nothing about the amount consumed, nor when it was consumed, nor the initial concentration detected, or whether any detectable amount is deemed "positive", or indeed anything besides the fact that "they detected it" - all of this speculation is pretty pointless IMO.


What I REALLY hope is that the club educates players on what to do if and when they know they have made "a mistake" and the testers turn up on their doorstep with a jar in their hands. I feel like this could have played out much better had the whole urine substitution thing not happened, but I guess we won't know until the findings and sentence is handed out.
 

Necessary Evil

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There's a big story dropping tomorrow about Essendon's ordeal with ASADA. Looks like ASADA shafted them by only adding Tymosin Beta-4 to the list of banned substances just before they informed them. These mugs are corrupt as fu**! I'd love nothing more for this story to blow up and force the AFL to sever ties and hand Willie a 3 month ban for smoking a joint. Won't happen, but one can dream.
 

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Godfather32

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There's a big story dropping tomorrow about Essendon's ordeal with ASADA. Looks like ASADA shafted them by only adding Tymosin Beta-4 to the list of banned substances just before they informed them. These mugs are corrupt as fu**! I'd love nothing more for this story to blow up and force the AFL to sever ties and hand Willie a 3 month ban for smoking a joint. Won't happen, but one can dream.
Given it was a long time ago and I'm going off memory but wasn't Thymosin Beta-4 banned because it came under a similar category as growth hormone? So it didn't have to be specifically named on a banned list to be a banned substance.
 

Miguel Sanchez

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Given it was a long time ago and I'm going off memory but wasn't Thymosin Beta-4 banned because it came under a similar category as growth hormone? So it didn't have to be specifically named on a banned list to be a banned substance.
Yeah that was my recollection too. It was under a catchall category that applied to any substance that wasn’t approved for human consumption.

Which won’t stop Essendon fans (including Robbo and his minions) from claiming that the players and club are vindicated.
 

shooshka

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Time has blurred my memory, but I'm pretty sure that was well known and reported on at that time.
So the story today is that it was added to the ASADA list/website the day before Essendon 'self reported' (i.e. were about to get caught).

Then, right at the end of the article, basically as an ending, they mention it was on the WADA list since 2010.

So yeah, they did the wrong thing and it was clearly banned - but maybe there was a procedural/administration error at ASADA where people couldn't properly check locally what was on the list and what was not.
 

kerr87

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So the story today is that it was added to the ASADA list/website the day before Essendon 'self reported' (i.e. were about to get caught).

Then, right at the end of the article, basically as an ending, they mention it was on the WADA list since 2010.

So yeah, they did the wrong thing and it was clearly banned - but maybe there was a procedural/administration error at ASADA where people couldn't properly check locally what was on the list and what was not.
This.
 

Ishmael_

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So the story today is that it was added to the ASADA list/website the day before Essendon 'self reported' (i.e. were about to get caught).

Then, right at the end of the article, basically as an ending, they mention it was on the WADA list since 2010.

So yeah, they did the wrong thing and it was clearly banned - but maybe there was a procedural/administration error at ASADA where people couldn't properly check locally what was on the list and what was not.
Yup basically a nothing story to make the skim reading Bomber supporter feel better.

Robbo is still pushing the drugcheats' barrow albeit under Warner's byline. And I think it's important to take anything Warner writes with a truckload of salt. I'm no fan of the AFL, but he is pathological in his hatred.
 

shooshka

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This statement from ASADA should shut the cheats up.
You see the problem was they had to fill out a form to query it.

Now, we know from the evidence that they were very bad at filling out forms (as when you are drug tested they fill out a form that specially asks if players had been taking or injecting any other substances, either legal or illegal - or unknown - and they all left it blank). So not Essendons fault as they were just bad at filling out forms (They certainly didn't instruct the players to specifically omit information )

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Fatty rules

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So let me understand this right. ASADA implements WADA substance abuse policy but publishes a substance check-list that is different to WADA's, then tells people "it's not our fault if we publish a list different to WADA's". I don't understand that.

Apart from this, the only real connection between the Essendon case (systematic club-organised attempt to cheat using a PED) and Rioli's case (panic at testing time over a possible cannabis metabolite finding) is the WADA system, which is defective, administered by ASADA and implemented by the AFL.
The threat of a 4-year ban is based on WADA being focused around the Olympics cycle. That may be appropriate for state-organised sample-tampering but it is an entirely different universe from an athlete testing positive for a recreational substance, which is not (despite the silly stuff WADA say about cannabis) performance-enhancing.
 

Boston tiger

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Willie certainly doesn’t look like someone who is taking performance enhancing drugs long term etc. Certainly looks like he might smoke the ganja. But how does he only get charged with Ganja smoking and not sample tampering?
Does the blood test substitute and cover what a urine test does ?
Did a blood test happen and who did it and when and why?

I’m worried that this poor bloke is going to cop a big suspension because of precedence if he doesn’t . I tampered with my sample because I’d been smoking dope etc.

Basically what is going to Rioli a light sentence ? Can the blood test help etc.

Didn’t someone from GWS do something dodgy and got away with it ?
 

ConcreteWaters

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Willie certainly doesn’t look like someone who is taking performance enhancing drugs long term etc. Certainly looks like he might smoke the ganja. But how does he only get charged with Ganja smoking and not sample tampering?
Does the blood test substitute and cover what a urine test does ?
Did a blood test happen and who did it and when and why?

I’m worried that this poor bloke is going to cop a big suspension because of precedence if he doesn’t . I tampered with my sample because I’d been smoking dope etc.

Basically what is going to Rioli a light sentence ? Can the blood test help etc.

Didn’t someone from GWS do something dodgy and got away with it ?
He's pretty screwed.
As you said, setting a precedence for getting out of a test by tampering with a sample could be one that people taking performance enhancing substances could use to get a lighter sentence. You can't really allow that and have the drug testing regime maintain any sort of integrity. Don't know about the blood test, but you'd imagine ASADA will go for 4 years, and given it was a deliberate manipulation it's hard to see an argument otherwise. Would be stoked if it was somehow reduced, but bloody hell, much easier to just take a whizz in a cup.
 

ziad

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Willie certainly doesn’t look like someone who is taking performance enhancing drugs long term etc. Certainly looks like he might smoke the ganja. But how does he only get charged with Ganja smoking and not sample tampering?
Does the blood test substitute and cover what a urine test does ?
Did a blood test happen and who did it and when and why?

I’m worried that this poor bloke is going to cop a big suspension because of precedence if he doesn’t . I tampered with my sample because I’d been smoking dope etc.

Basically what is going to Rioli a light sentence ? Can the blood test help etc.

Didn’t someone from GWS do something dodgy and got away with it ?
Stupidity isn't a defence - if it was the world would be a different place.
 

kane249

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Keys

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I’m biased but from the little we know 4 years seems a ridiculously harsh penalty. It may depend on how blatant he was with the substitution- if it was clear that he was supplying Gatorade that’s a different action to him trying to “trick” the chaperone by disguising his substitution in some way

There’s no hope he gets less than 18 months though and that’s probably best case scenario as it’s a manageable time frame. Any longer than that becomes problematic in terms of what with do with a player that effectively can’t play until 2022
 

Boston tiger

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He's pretty screwed.
As you said, setting a precedence for getting out of a test by tampering with a sample could be one that people taking performance enhancing substances could use to get a lighter sentence. You can't really allow that and have the drug testing regime maintain any sort of integrity. Don't know about the blood test, but you'd imagine ASADA will go for 4 years, and given it was a deliberate manipulation it's hard to see an argument otherwise. Would be stoked if it was somehow reduced, but bloody hell, much easier to just take a whizz in a cup.
Can he play the culture card? Weak I know but if it saves his career why not?
West Coast not displaying duty of care / due diligence etc etc.
culture shame etc etc
 

WCE_phil

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Good luck trying to play the culture card against WC. They would have to be the leading club in the AFL with regards to their indigenous programs.
He can play the race card, lack of education, tough upbringing, remote community etc. I still don't see it getting below a 2 year ban with 6 months suspended.

He plays the above, plus the fact that the blood sample came clean, admit that it is because he has a problem with weed and all parties come away not too badly.

ASADA/WADA hold a 2 year min ban for tampering, it's a good news story for Rioli and the AFL which they spin for PR with the club, Rioli and the AFL committing to more activity and funds into programs for the indigenous, drugs/and or how seemingly innocuous day to day things like weed (how a lot of people see it) can ruin a career.

If we run the us against them way using Essendon and doping as a precedence or the similar cases of positive cocaine tests etc i think he gets full whack. AFL doesn't give a fu** about us unless they can turn it into a good story for them.

Then watch it all play out in September for the media to have a ******* field day with. This year it f’ed us, next year I can see the players using it to steel themselves together and take out the premiership.
 

Doashuey

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He can play the race card, lack of education, tough upbringing, remote community etc. I still don't see it getting below a 2 year ban with 6 months suspended.

He plays the above, plus the fact that the blood sample came clean, admit that it is because he has a problem with weed and all parties come away not too badly.

ASADA/WADA hold a 2 year min ban for tampering, it's a good news story for Rioli and the AFL which they spin for PR with the club, Rioli and the AFL committing to more activity and funds into programs for the indigenous, drugs/and or how seemingly innocuous day to day things like weed (how a lot of people see it) can ruin a career.

If we run the us against them way using Essendon and doping as a precedence or the similar cases of positive cocaine tests etc i think he gets full whack. AFL doesn't give a fu** about us unless they can turn it into a good story for them.

Then watch it all play out in September for the media to have a ******* field day with. This year it f’ed us, next year I can see the players using it to steel themselves together and take out the premiership.
I agree but the post I was responding to indicated he could play the race card by holding the club partially responsible for not showing due diligance or providing an environment culture shame etc (not exactly a coherent post but I could see what it was angling at).
The situation you outlined would have a much higher chance of success.
 

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